What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?

[Idaho_Cowboy]

One of the things about "religious" belief is it gives a person a base for moral and ethical restraint. A code of conduct. How do you present something to a populace that includes any kind of restraint without someone screaming it infringes on their right to freedom from religion? One of the things that I am concerned with is Chimera research. The big push for transgenderism and/or people doing body modifications with the lifting of bans on certain genetic research may open a Pandora's Box of he-she-its. I've said this before. When Manbearpig becomes a reality does that mean we have to meekly accept (in my view) abominations as part of society? Your inclusive ALL gives me some pause.

We are at a very tough spot as we are not trying to legislate morality, we are trying to legislate reality.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

@sneakypete  First Amendment:
I'll go with that, and I am a Christian. Despite your pejorative characterization of religion, in some cases perhaps well deserved, a vast number of "Real Americans" existed before the Vikings found this place. Some of them became Christians, some didn't.

Among those honorable people in either camp is a shared set of values. Your word is your bond. You stand up for what you believe is right. You defend your friends, relentlessly pursue your enemies, but can come to terms in a mutually honorable peace--or, in some cases, not. Fundamental rules exist, and breaking those promotes outrage whatever one's religious beliefs.
 
You don't steal from others. (It pisses them off, just as you would be pissed off if they stole something of yours).
You don't needlessly kill them. (That pisses off their relatives).
You don't screw their wives (Messing with family units is often taboo, even though there may be exceptions).
You feed the poor, sick, and weak who can't feed themselves. (Note, I didn't say won't feed themselves.)
Be kind to animals and lesser creatures, unless they are a threat to you and yours, or you want them for food, then kill them quickly and mercifully.
Teach children the ways of adulthood as they are old and mature enough to learn without unnecessarily rushing it. 
Protect women and children from harm.

Most cultures would agree on most, if not all of that, at some level (individual/family/extended family/band/tribe/nation) regardless of religious belief, because human nature is pretty much hard wired in. The same spectrum of wants, needs, aggravations, ambitions, and desires are present in humanity as were thousands of years ago, only the scope of those and the trimmings have changed.

That takes us back to the idea of fundamental Rights.
The right to believe--or not.
The right to assemble in groups
The right to have an opinion and voice it
The right to challenge what you think is wrong
The right to defend yourself and yours
The right to have your stuff, without ANY one else messing with it.
The right to face those who accuse you of wrong, to make them prove what they contend or be believed innocent of that wrong.
To not be punished for any wrongs unless your people have decided you did, and only after consideration of all evidence for and against you. You have a right to defend yourself and have any and all who can aid in that defense present their information on your behalf. No punishment should be disproportional to the nature of whatever you did, if such applies, nor should it be unusually cruel.

For a Christian of Jew, those rules are laid out in the Bible, for others, in other scriptures or cultural tradition, but whether or not to follow some moral 'code' remains an individual choice.

The concept of Honor transcends culture, and although it is often co-opted or encumbered with other stuff, Men of Honor understand, instinctively, and follow that internal code. By any reasonable standard they are moral men. Those who are not, need rules spelled out in the most minute detail, and will still try to weasel out of them.
In terms of religion, we may not believe the same thing, yet I would trust you to conduct yourself honorably despite that.

That is what would make you a "Conservative" in my eyes, and beyond doubt a "Real American".

Very interesting and right on. This reminds me of John Locke's ideas on nature. As an example the Charles Eastman wrote on the beliefs of the Sioux Indians before the arrival of the white man and their culture revolved around honor, honesty, and generosity. The discovery of the American Indian was quite a shock Europeans it was evidence that man didn't need a great and mighty government.     

[sneakypete]

For some reason joyful is not the first word that comes to mind when I see your posts Pete. I'm glad my perception is clearly misguided. <<

@Idaho_Cowboy

I am not responsible for your misconceptions.



>>Next time a woman is expecting ask her what she is expecting. <<

She will rightfully say,"A baby". A fetus becomes a baby when it is born.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

She will rightfully say,"A baby". A fetus becomes a baby when it is born.

Preemies?

I'm curious about the transformation process that makes a fetus a baby, is it when it touches air or does the slap on the bottom make it human and what was it before?

[sneakypete]

You must have had a funny history book. First of all the very ideas on which America was founded have their basis in faith it was a central part of their reasoning. <<

Repeating a  lie over and over doesn't make it the truth.

>>The Pilgrims and the Puritans began by building a society upon the principles of the Bible.  John Locke's view of nature was grew from his faith. <<

The Pilgrims and the Puritans weren't the Founding Fathers,and neither was John Locke.



>>Study the federalist and anti-federalist papers, these men did not simply tack on the word God as a page decoration. The writings of many of the most influential founders reveal a deep seated personal faith. George Washington, John Adams, Patrick Henry, Benjamin Rush, and even Thomas Jefferson's writings show they were men of great faith. It was the source of their vision, their bravery, and their wisdom. <<

I guess if you look hard enough,you can discover anything you want. SOME of the FF'ers were religiously devout,but not most of them.

>>You can use revisionist history to deny that, but it doesn't change the foundation America sits on.<<

Religious cults repeatedly telling the same lie over and over doesn't make it a truth to anyone but their cult's "True Believers".

 >>Furthermore no nation apart from that faith has ever achieved even a measure of the freedom America did. <<

Going by YOUR standards,Italy and Mecca should both be beacons of lights shining to highlight all the freedoms and successes of their faiths.

How's that working out for ya?


Look,you are a True Believer,and devoutly and sincerely believe all that is true. If it makes you happy to believe that,I am happy for  you.

It doesn't make it true,though.

[sneakypete]

Preemies?<<

@Idaho_Cowboy

Are you now claiming that preemies aren't babies?

>>I'm curious about the transformation process that makes a fetus a baby, is it when it touches air or does the slap on the bottom make it human and what was it before?<<

It's alive and breathing on it's own,and nurses independently instead of being a parasitic growth inside the mother's body. Before the birth,if the mother had died the fetus would have also died. This is no longer true/

[/b]

[Idaho_Cowboy]

You must have had a funny history book. First of all the very ideas on which America was founded have their basis in faith it was a central part of their reasoning. <<

Repeating a  lie over and over doesn't make it the truth.

>>The Pilgrims and the Puritans began by building a society upon the principles of the Bible.  John Locke's view of nature was grew from his faith. <<

The Pilgrims and the Puritans weren't the Founding Fathers,and neither was John Locke.



>>Study the federalist and anti-federalist papers, these men did not simply tack on the word God as a page decoration. The writings of many of the most influential founders reveal a deep seated personal faith. George Washington, John Adams, Patrick Henry, Benjamin Rush, and even Thomas Jefferson's writings show they were men of great faith. It was the source of their vision, their bravery, and their wisdom. <<

I guess if you look hard enough,you can discover anything you want. SOME of the FF'ers were religiously devout,but not most of them.

>>You can use revisionist history to deny that, but it doesn't change the foundation America sits on.<<

Religious cults repeatedly telling the same lie over and over doesn't make it a truth to anyone but their cult's "True Believers".

 >>Furthermore no nation apart from that faith has ever achieved even a measure of the freedom America did. <<

Going by YOUR standards,Italy and Mecca should both be beacons of lights shining to highlight all the freedoms and successes of their faiths.

How's that working out for ya?


Look,you are a True Believer,and devoutly and sincerely believe all that is true. If it makes you happy to believe that,I am happy for  you.

It doesn't make it true,though.

Daniel Webster one of America's greatest early historians disagrees. Who's repeating a lie?

“If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity.”
― Daniel Webster

“If religious books are not widely circulated among the masses in this country, I do not know what is going to become of us as a nation. If truth be not diffused, then error will be. If God and His Word are not known and received, the devil and his works will gain the ascendency. If the evangelical volume does not reach every hamlet, the pages of a corrupt and licentious literature will. If the power of the gospel is not felt throughout the length and breadth of this land, anarchy and misrule, degradation and misery, corruption and darkness will reign without mitigation or end.”
― Daniel Webster

[Doug Loss]

Pete, nor does your kvetching automatically make everyone else's positions wrong.  You do have many good thoughts, as we've seen in other topics.  But your extremely vehement anti-religious claims are only making opponents of many who would otherwise agree with you on most things.  Your position is well-known and understood at this point; belaboring it isn't helping anyone.  And everyone else, you won't change Pete's mind, so jumping on him will only detract from substantive discussions.

[sneakypete]

Daniel Webster one of America's greatest early historians disagrees. Who's repeating a lie?


― Daniel Webster

Everybody that quotes Daniel Webster.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Are you now claiming that preemies aren't babies?
It's alive and breathing on it's own,and nurses independently instead of being a parasitic growth inside the mother's body. Before the birth,if the mother had died the fetus would have also died. This is no longer true/

@sneakypete

I'm asking you if you think a preemie in an incubator is a baby yet?

A parasitic growth? You are a hard and cruel man, I'm nearly speechless. By your standard they remain that for a long time. I've yet to see a self sufficient one year old either. Do the elderly cease to be human and become parasitic lumps again? What about the mental challenged.  What do you think makes human life human?

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Everybody that quotes Daniel Webster.

Deep man, deep.
Glad you were there to tell us how it was and know more than all original historical sources.

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

@Idaho_Cowboy

I'm asking you if you think a preemie in an incubator is a baby yet?<<

Is the preemie inside the mother,and the mother inside the incubator? I thought what I wrote was pretty plain.

>>A parasitic growth? You are a hard and cruel man, I'm nearly speechless. <<

Nah,you just don't like losing.

>>By your standard they remain that for a long time. I've yet to see a self sufficient one year old either. Do the elderly cease to be human and become parasitic lumps again? What about the mental challenged.  What do you think makes human life human?<<

Once again,tell me how many of the people you just listed in your attempt to distort what I wrote are physically hooked to the internal organs of another human,and get everything they need to survive from that human?

Or maybe you think the incubators are human,also?

[bigheadfred]

From my point of view life is created way before it is homed in a physical structure. The soul is there before conception and enters the home at that point. You can talk all you want to about viability yada yada yada. Abortion is murder. Legalized murder. That doesn't make it right. Any deviation from that is simply shitty thinking.  A woman has the right to choose life or murder.

Science follows God. Or an Architect. Or intelligent Design. From the macroscopic to the microscopic. For all things to have arisen to such a perfect degree from a random set of circumstances is small thinking. You're not giving yourself much of an opportunity to live life. IMO, DNA is owned by a superior intelligence. Screwing around with it at our primitive level invites catastrophe. I hear a little voice speaking in the back of my head. It sounds kinda like "GET OFF MY LAWN".

Cowboy Reincarnation by Wallace McRae

"What does Reincarnation mean?"
A cowpoke asked his friend.
His pal replied, "It happens when
Yer life has reached its end.
They comb yer hair, and warsh yer neck,
And clean yer fingernails,
And lay you in a padded box
Away from life’s travails."

"The box and you goes in a hole,
That’s been dug into the ground.
Reincarnation starts in when
Yore planted ‘neath a mound.
Them clods melt down, just like yer box,
And you who is inside.
And then yore just beginnin’ on
Yer transformation ride."

"In a while, the grass’ll grow
Upon yer rendered mound.
Till some day on yer moldered grave
A lonely flower is found.
And say a hoss should wander by
And graze upon this flower
That once wuz you, but now’s become
Yer vegetative bower."

"The posy that the hoss done ate
Up, with his other feed,
Makes bone, and fat, and muscle
Essential to the steed,
But some is left that he can’t use
And so it passes through,
And finally lays upon the ground
This thing, that once wuz you."

"Then say, by chance, I wanders by
And sees this upon the ground,
And I ponders, and I wonders at,
This object that I found.
I thinks of reincarnation,
Of life and death, and such,
And come away concludin’: ‘Slim,
You ain’t changed, all that much

[sneakypete]

Deep man, deep.
Glad you were there to tell us how it was and know more than all original historical sources.

@Idaho_Cowboy

You asked,and I told you. I am not responsible for you liking the answers.

[dfwgator]

It died the day HW moved into the White House.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Once again,tell me how many of the people you just listed in your attempt to distort what I wrote are physically hooked to the internal organs of another human,and get everything they need to survive from that human?

Or maybe you think the incubators are human,also?

Why does being inside another human any different than a breastfeeding baby on the outside. All of the same bodily functions take place. You are obliviously seeing a difference here that I'm missing.

Consider this. If you could raise a baby in an artificial device from conception to complete gestation would it have been a baby the whole time?

[geronl]

If they find an amoeba on Mars it will be forever touted as the first alien life we have ever discovered. One cell is still life.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

If they find an amoeba on Mars it will be forever touted as the first alien life we have ever discovered. One cell is still life.

Very true. In regards to unborn babies, if it isn't human life what kind of life is it?

[sneakypete]

Why does being inside another human any different than a breastfeeding baby on the outside. All of the same bodily functions take place. You are obliviously seeing a difference here that I'm missing.

@Idaho_Cowboy

Hundreds of millions of babies grew into healthy adults without ever breast-feeding even once. They also do their own breathing,eliminate their own wastes,and can usually see and hear the things around them. They do none of this in the womb,and you know it.


Consider this. If you could raise a baby in an artificial device from conception to complete gestation would it have been a baby the whole time?

Once it reached the point where it didn't need the device to circulate blood,breathe,etc,etc,etc,yes,they would. Prior to that they are nothing more than growths that have the potential to be human.

Deep down you know all this yourself,but the dogma that has been drilled into you since you were a defenseless child yourself won't allow you to recognize it.

[sneakypete]

If they find an amoeba on Mars it will be forever touted as the first alien life we have ever discovered. One cell is still life.

@geronl


And not all life is  human.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Deep down you know all this yourself,but the dogma that has been drilled into you since you were a defenseless child yourself won't allow you to recognize it.

I saw my daughter wave to me on an ultrasound so don't pull that rubbish with me. My wife had a miscarriage very early on. We didn't mourn the loss of a lump of tissue. I had a friend that had a preemie baby that had more tubes that you could imagine hooked up to that little kid, but he's an adult now and everyone is glad  he made is past being a parasitic life. I know a baby when I see it.

Once it reached the point where it didn't need the device to circulate blood,breathe,etc,etc,etc,yes,they would. Prior to that they are nothing more than growths that have the potential to be human.

Then you look at this, and you tell me it's not a life. You tell me that because this child needs a machine to breathe that it isn't a human life! You tell me that! You go to a hospital and tell the parents that. You tell them that deep down they know it isn't a baby, you tell them it's a parasitic growth.


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[sneakypete]

I saw my daughter wave to me on an ultrasound so don't pull that rubbish with me.<<

@Idaho_Cowboy

Are you claiming she recognized you? How do you know it was a wave,and not a nerve spasm. I blinked my eyes a few moments ago. Does that mean I am flirting with you?

>> My wife had a miscarriage very early on. We didn't mourn the loss of a lump of tissue. <<

Correct me if I am wrong,but doesn't a miscarriage qualify as a birth?

>>I had a friend that had a preemie baby that had more tubes that you could imagine hooked up to that little kid, but he's an adult now and everyone is glad  he made is past being a parasitic life. I know a baby when I see it. <<

So,she was born and THEN she was hooked up to tubes,and now you are arguing that I am wrong BECAUSE SHE WAS BORN and was then hooked up to tubes?


>>Then you look at this, and you tell me it's not a life. You tell me that because this child needs a machine to breathe that it isn't a human life! <<

That is NOT what I said and you can't find a post of mine claiming I did say it.

>>You tell me that! You go to a hospital and tell the parents that. You tell them that deep down they know it isn't a baby, you tell them it's a parasitic growth.<<

It is a waste of time for us to try to discuss this any further. Your mind is locked on your position and nothing will ever be able to convince you to look at the evidence because you are approaching it entirely from an emotional POV. Hell,you can't even recognize what the term "parasitic growth" means because of  your biases. Your knee jerks,and right away you are upset because you see it as a negative thing,when it is neither negative or positive. It is just a clinical term that means "dependent on the host". Nothing more and nothing less. Yet you focus on that because your personal history,quite naturally,gives you a personal emotional bias that nothing can overpower.

[INVAR]

This conversation is living proof that there is no common ground upon which to stand as a society when we cannot even agree on what constitutes a life or liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

This thread exemplifies the reason this nation is off the cliff in decline and accelerating to the bottom.

[bigheadfred]

@sneakypete

We have a parasitic growth called the fedgov. How do you change something like that? Please throw some insight at this. Plus all the other smaller offshoot parasites that do nothing for the host but by leave of the parent parasite are destroying the host. Best thing is to get down and dirty and excise the parasite. And then burn it with fire. I wonder how you view yourself? Parasite. Or something else. If there is nothing out there then there is nothing in there either. So it is pointless to even begin to try. Unless you are a parasite. Maybe you view yourself as an isolated energy system. But I don't think science has found any of those yet. Everything interacts with everything else. I think it is that interaction that we need to define. So leave religion out and answer it from a scientific point of view. What kind of force and how much. What kind of energy and how much. etceterata

[sneakypete]

This conversation is living proof that there is no common ground upon which to stand as a society when we cannot even agree on what constitutes a life or liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

This thread exemplifies the reason this nation is off the cliff in decline and accelerating to the bottom.

@INVAR

Exactly. Close-minded people who are unwilling to allow others to have their own thoughts. Dogmatic dogs.