CMPD said Keith Lamont Scott had a gun. Was that reason enough to order him to drop it?

[sneakypete]

I saw the cell phone video. They ordered the guy around 10 times to drop his gun. When cops have a gun trained on you, why wouldn't you drop it? Suicide by cop if ask me. Also his wife/girlfriend was saying "don't do it" to the guy over and over again.<<

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

Add to that the FACT that he is brain-damaged,had a prior gun arrest,and shouldn't have even been free to walk around,never mind marry,breed more brain-damaged welfare parasites,and threaten people with a gun again.

>>Doesn't seem like anything worth rioting over to me.<<

Ahhhh,but you aren't black,your "leaders" aren't a bought and paid for clergy that has been trained to create riots at the drop of a hat for the city,state,and federal handouts they get for getting their "peeps" to quit rioting and looting.

Also,since you aren't black,you don't see it as a justifiable excuse for "liberating" big screen teebees from Wal-Mart,or alcohol from liquor stores.

Or an excuse for you and 200 of your closest friends to rat pack a white woman or senior citizen that can't fight back. Even then almost all the punches and kicks thrown are thrown from the back or after the victim is already on the ground.

[sneakypete]

The more important question is:  why did they escalate this situation by coming back with vests on? <<

@sinkspur

I  disagree. Anybody so stupid they won't drop a gun when facing cops screaming at them to drop the gun or be shot NEEDS to be shot.

Besides,since when did vests become offensive weapons? Pretty much every cop I see these days is wearing a vest under their shirts,so how does donning an additional vest with a higher rating BECAUSE they had seen the gun and his drugs escalate anything?


  >>Could they not have gotten cooperation from him in another way? <<

You are kidding,right? He is already refusing to drop a loaded gun when outnumbered by police pointing loaded guns at him,so WHAT could have possibly been a more effective or important negotiating stance than "Drop the gun or we will shoot you!"?  That's pretty much all the information 99 percent of us would need to make an informed choice.


>>Could they not have used a tazer? <<

Maybe. I guess it would depend on how threatened they felt,how aggressive the suspect seemed to be,and maybe other variables. We all know that tazer's don't work on people under the influence of some drugs,and it would be easy for any of us to identify someone with brain damage with someone on drugs. I'm going to have to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

>> Why in hell did they not have their body cameras on?  <<

EXCELLENT question,and one I would like to hear the answer to,also.ANY cop in this day and age that wears a body camera and turns it off is either up to no good,or too stupid to wear a badge and carry a gun to represent us.

>>This stinks to high heaven.<<

Not really. What would YOU do if YOU were a cop that approached a suspect with a gun in his hand that refused to drop it?

 >> Why are cops so anxious to shoot people?<<

IMNSHO,it's mostly because most of them scare easily and know they can almost always get away with it.

[sneakypete]

I saw the video, I heard the cop say "drop the gun" about 10 times. I heard his wife plead with him to drop the weapon.<<

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

You must have been listening to and watching a different video than me. I heard his wife screaming over and over "Don't shoot him! He doesn't have a gun!" The fact that he DID ave a gun doesn't alter that.

>>Without being there, I would say suicide by cop.<<

Nope. Brain damage. He wasn't clever enough to make rational decisions,and paid the price because of it. This does NOT put the cops at fault for defending themselves,though.

[sneakypete]

So now we find out that the two cops were undercover.  They saw Scott rolling a joint and that he had a gun.  NC is an open carry state.  He was sitting in his car.<<

@sinkspur

Means nothing. Even IF he was legally in possession of the gun (he wasn't),he wasn't legally in possession of the drugs they also saw him with.

Besides,even if you have a permit to carry the cops will still want to disarm you when they approach you about some possible crime you have committed. ESPECIALLY if you are holding the gun in your hand or have such ready access to it that you don't even have to draw it out of a holster.

[sneakypete]

Yes, why did he pick up a gun when confronted by police with their guns drawn?

@goatprairie

Because he was brain-damaged or just mentally defective. Which is the best reason I can think of for him not being legally able to buy or possess a gun.

Because of his mental condition,it's hard to say he was at fault because combing that with smoking pot he most likely had no idea of what was really going on or the consequences for him not following directions.

This does NOT mean it was the cops fault,either. This is just a case where you can't really assign fault.

[JustPassinThru]

Cops no longer go out of their way to avoid killing.  They go for their guns at the slightest provocation.  And I mean SLIGHTEST. 

These two cops intentionally escalated a situation that they could have handled differently, had they involved cooler heads (supervisor). 

Was the shooting justified?  A grand jury will likely find such.

Was the situation handled correctly?  Hopefully a police review will find it not to be the case.

That's an insane claim.  The legal risks to a cop who uses his weapon are so much greater now - and have been for a decade.

In SOME AREAS he's quicker to go for his gun because the perps are MUCH more violent, more feral, more ready to turn on him.  This isn't policing an orderly society anymore - it's war in the streets.

And against all the body cameras and car-camera footage of HOW MANY moronic, drug-addled losers do this, you STILL want the cops to stand there and die for YOUR wrongheaded principles.  NOT...HAPPENING.

Police cannot do their work like Andy Griffith when the area is filled with armed, drugged-up feral thugs wandering the streets.

[sneakypete]

Use a Tazer.  That's why the effing taxpayers had to ante up for the damned things.    <<

@sinkspur

No,the taxpayers buy tazers for the cops to use when innocent lives are NOT at risk. Taze someone holding a loaded gun may even cause them to pull the trigger from the muscle spasms.


>>No, they won't be prosecuted because cops are rarely prosecuted.<<

Sad,but true.

 >>But it's just another instance of a death by cop that didn't need to happen.<<

Also true,but if anybody is to blame in this case,it is his family because you KNOW they knew he had a gun and they also knew he had brain damage. He wasn't to blame because people with brain damage are by definition not going to make smart decisions,and the cops aren't to blame because he has a gun he is refusing to drop and it's a situation they HAVE to deal with.

[sneakypete]

They didn't know about his past.  They never inquired.  <<

@sinkspur

They didn't HAVE to know about his past. ALL they had to know about was the "RIGHT NOW",and "right now" he was in possession of and under the influence of illegal drugs,possibly even PCP,was armed,and was resisting arrest and refusing to drop his gun.

>>There are too many cops shooting too many people.<<

Yes,there are,but that doesn't mean that some of the shootings weren't justified. Each case has to be considered based on it's unique circumstances.

I am in 100 percent agreement with you that too often the cops get to commit what amounts to outright murder,and their only "punishment" is a paid vacation for a few months. That crap HAS to stop!

[sneakypete]

You're gonna use a tazer on a guy holding a gun? That's crazy.

And I have live in open carry my whole life. If I have any beef with the cops, I immediately inform them that I am strapped, and ask them how they want to deal with it. Even if it's just a traffic ticket.<<

@roamer_1

I go so far as to make sure my window is rolled down before I come to a stop,and when the cop approaches my car BOTH of my hands are wrapped around the top of the steering wheel in plain sight and close enough to touch each other. I am also looking straight ahead and don't even turn my head until the cop is standing beside my door and says something to me.  The FIRST thing I tell him then is that I am armed and have a CCW permit,and THEN I tell him I have to undo my seat belt/shoulder harness to get my drivers license and CCW permit out of my pocket,and make damn sure he says "ok" before I make a move.

I gotta be honest here. I am pretty sure that doing the above has gotten me a pass on a couple of speeding tickets. Cops don't like surprises and getting scared any more than you or I like them.

>>You've got to be an idiot to be non-compliant.<<

That or desperate with nothing to lose because only bad things can happen after that point is reached.

[sneakypete]

This situation should never have gotten to the point where these hot dog cops had to pull guns on this guy. 

@sinkspur

What did you expect them to do after seeing a man in a parked car doing drugs and having a handgun in plain sight? Do you expect cops to  approach armed suspects WITHOUT pulling their own guns?

Seriously

[sneakypete]

The Constitution isn't a suicide pact, and neither is the law.

If I'm a cop and my life is threatened you better damn well believe I will protect it even if it means spending the rest of my life in jail.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

I'm not a cop and don't even play one on tv,but threatening my life in a manner that makes me think you are serious is not a smart thing to do if you want to keep living.

[Sanguine]

The more important question is:  why did they escalate this situation by coming back with vests on?  Could they not have gotten cooperation from him in another way?  Could they not have used a tazer?  Why in hell did they not have their body cameras on? 

This stinks to high heaven.  Why are cops so anxious to shoot people?

A tazer against a gun?  Why would they do that?

[Longmire]

These two cops intentionally escalated a situation that they could have handled differently, had they involved cooler heads (supervisor). 

I hope you're aware there were more than two cops involved in that take down, and asaik the two you've referred to as hotdogs didn't fire at the subject. I also object to the characterization of police going to get vest protection as anything but smart and prudent.

My take is that the subject wasn't aware of all the police on the scene, exited the vehicle gun in hand in such a way as to disguise his intent to open fire on the two cops behind the truck and got nailed by the cop he didn't see who had the correct angle to see the gun in his hand and read his true intentions.

[sinkspur]

I hope you're aware there were more than two cops involved in that take down, and asaik the two you've referred to as hotdogs didn't fire at the subject. I also object to the characterization of police going to get vest protection as anything but smart and prudent.

My take is that the subject wasn't aware of all the police on the scene, exited the vehicle gun in hand in such a way as to disguise his intent to open fire on the two cops behind the truck and got nailed by the cop he didn't see who had the correct angle to see the gun in his hand and read his true intentions.

You and I differ.  The cops escalated a situation that could and should have been handled differently.  Too many cops shooting too many people

[XenaLee]

I have two nephews who are cops and they think the "new breed" of cops are trigger happy.   The oldest has been a cop for 18 years and has never come close to shooting anybody.  Rarely draws his gun.    The other hasn't shot anybody either.

So I have a different perspective on effective policing than you do.

I have two retired cops in my family, that still have their finger on the pulse of the law enforcement community...and their perspective is....it's open season on cops now thanks to Barack Hussein Obama and his radical leftist ilk.  Cops aren't trigger happy, they are just VERY on edge and very aware of the "new norm" and danger they are facing these days.  Who the hell wouldn't be, considering the reality we're now in?

[Longmire]

Too many cops shooting too many people

I don't disagree with that as a general statement, but not in this case.

This was a trained plain clothes team and the subject didn't calculate his odds of success properly.

I'd also point out that Scott was a convicted felon with no right to possess a fire arm.

These are exactly the kind of people who need to be taken off the street, and it's their choice how that happens.

[sinkspur]

I don't disagree with that as a general statement, but not in this case.

This was a trained plain clothes team and the subject didn't calculate his odds of success properly.

I'd also point out that Scott was a convicted felon with no right to possess a fire arm.

These are exactly the kind of people who need to be taken off the street, and it's their choice how that happens.

Shootings by cop are always justified "in this case."

[bigheadfred]

Shootings by cop are always justified "in this case."

I agree with your assessment here.

[Longmire]

I agree with your assessment here.

Let me disagree with you agreement.

For instance I don't think the recent Tulsa death was a good shoot, nor do I think the Florida care worker who was trying to calm an autistic child was a good shoot.

I'm on the fence regarding the Charleston shooting and don't think the policeman exhibited good judgement in chasing the man in the first place.

I also find it interesting that in all the recent cases that sparked riots (Ferguson, Baltimore, Milwaukee, Charlotte) the cops were (imo) in the right and in each case there was a well funded agitation against public order. I don't think that's a coincidence.

[Sanguine]

Let me disagree with you agreement.

For instance I don't think the recent Tulsa death was a good shoot, nor do I think the Florida care worker who was trying to calm an autistic child was a good shoot.

I'm on the fence regarding the Charleston shooting and don't think the policeman exhibited good judgement in chasing the man in the first place.

I also find it interesting that in all the recent cases that sparked riots (Ferguson, Baltimore, Milwaukee, Charlotte) the cops were (imo) in the right and in each case there was a well funded agitation against public order. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Good point.

[roamer_1]

I go so far as to make sure my window is rolled down before I come to a stop,and when the cop approaches my car BOTH of my hands are wrapped around the top of the steering wheel in plain sight and close enough to touch each other. I am also looking straight ahead and don't even turn my head until the cop is standing beside my door and says something to me.  The FIRST thing I tell him then is that I am armed and have a CCW permit,and THEN I tell him I have to undo my seat belt/shoulder harness to get my drivers license and CCW permit out of my pocket,and make damn sure he says "ok" before I make a move.

For me,it's different Normally, if I am packing (on me), it's my utility belt for when I go out in the woods... It's got 2 big knives, a 1911 .45, an ulu, and a tomahawk, not to mention other less threatening items... It's all utility for me, but I can understand that it's a substantial threat to them. With that much hardware on me, especially with the kabar hanging upside down on the left suspender, I'm a threat, even with my hands on the wheel...

I know most of the deputies and wardens (even more so now, as my kid is a LEO). If I know him, I'll just get out, disarm in full view (I mean unbuckle the belt, slip out of the suspenders), and throw it on the gun rack as I go dig out my paper... If I don't know him, I'll get out, keeping my hands well clear, and ask him how he wants to 'do this'.

Normally they just request that I get out of the belt, which I do deliberately, and then hang it on the truck mirror or the gun rack, and step away. Sometimes it's 'up against the wall' and they disarm me. Whatever makes them comfortable.

Same with a warden out in the woods - As I see them coming, I'll deliberately unload the carbine, take off my gear, hang it on a tree and step away...

I gotta be honest here. I am pretty sure that doing the above has gotten me a pass on a couple of speeding tickets. Cops don't like surprises and getting scared any more than you or I like them.

Yeah, I seldom get a ticket anymore... In my youth it was a different story, but even then, when I was doing a lot of business with the Sheriff's office and judges, The relationship was generally amicable.

But I also admit that it's probably way different here than in suburbia. Most everyone up here is armed, and guns are still very much just part of living. Every redneck or hillbilly is likely (read guaranteed) to have weapons, so I'd imagine the cops are more used to that armed citizenry. Maybe that's the difference.

And it isn't just cops, btw... Walk up on a mountain cabin without a holler and your carbine lever or bolt action open, and see what you get. It's just polite to disarm yourself walking up on another man's house. I may have the right, but so does he, and it's his castle he's defending.

Sometimes RTKBA 2nd amendment types can be too over-wound - With gun culture being restored in a lot of places, the manners that go with it may not be there as they once were.

[goatprairie]

I have two retired cops in my family, that still have their finger on the pulse of the law enforcement community...and their perspective is....it's open season on cops now thanks to Barack Hussein Obama and his radical leftist ilk.  Cops aren't trigger happy, they are just VERY on edge and very aware of the "new norm" and danger they are facing these days.  Who the hell wouldn't be, considering the reality we're now in?

They were approaching a man who had already spent time in prison FOR SHOOTING AT COPS!!! Of couse they knew who they were approaching and were rightfully on edge.
The obvious questions are repeated: why didn't Scott emerge from his car with no weapon in his hand, and why didn't he drop it when told to do so by the police?
If I had acted the way Scott did, I too could have expected to have been drilled by the police.
You simply don't get out of a car when ordered by the police with a weapon of any kind in your hand. The guy must have had a death wish.
In my state of Wisconsin four or five white men have been shot and killed so far this year in confrontations with the police. Although family members of some of the deceased asked questions about the validity of the shootings, there were no riots or protests.
I doubt many people in the state even know about the shootings since they were mostly in different parts of the state. But rest assured the great majority of  white persons reading about the incidents probably wondered why the deceased had challenged the police.

[sneakypete]

I know most of the deputies and wardens (even more so now, as my kid is a LEO). If I know him, I'll just get out, disarm in full view (I mean unbuckle the belt, slip out of the suspenders), and throw it on the gun rack as I go dig out my paper... If I don't know him, I'll get out, keeping my hands well clear, and ask him how he wants to 'do this'.<<
 
@roamer_1 Maybe 20 years ago I knew all the local cops and Highway Patrolmen to the point where I've actually had a HP Sgt take out his new duty gun and hand it to me to check out in a public place one Saturday afternoon. The tourists were freaking. I still had long hair and a beard back then,and pulled up riding a custom Harley I had built. This was back before CCW was legal,and I had been carrying a gun since the 60's and pretty much everybody knew it,including the sheriff. He even called me the day before CCW became legal and told me to show up at his office the next morning at 9 AM because he was going to personally fingerprint me and send off my paperwork that day. He had been against CCW permits until I found out and walked into his office one day and argued with him about it. When he said something about how dangerous and scary it was to think people would be walking around with concealed guns in their pockets and tucked into their belts,I told him "Hell,I have one in my pocket right now. Want me to take it out and show it to you? I was already carrying the damn thing when you became a deputy,and you have known it all along and were never scared. Why would you be scared if I suddenly got a permit?" Later he even told me and his secretary that if I wanted to own a machine gun to just apply anytime,and and he told her to go ahead and type out the paper for anything I wanted and he would sign it. Which would be pretty cool,but I pretty much wore out any interest in machine guns I may have had when I was a career infantry NCO. The only two things I really care about are accuracy and reliability.

In other words,the local cops around here were never worried about me carrying a gun.

BUT.......,times change,retired yankees move in,and the culture even changes to the point where there are at least 10 x as many deputies patrolling now than there were then,and none of the new people are former military people with some maturity. Damn near all of them are the buzz-cut "You WILL respect my authori-tay" types that most seem to be interested in playing Bobby Badass.  I got nose to nose with a couple of these clowns a couple of years ago over a roadblock and them getting pushy. One was a really fat black sgt and the other was his really fat white female partner that likes to brag about all the "ass I kicked".  The fat black sgt knew me,but it was the female "Ass kicker" that started to get pushy with me. I had to get in her face and then the black sgt had to tell her to back up and shut up. That one came really close to getting ugly.  I got so pissed over this I was in the sheriff's office the next day telling the sheriff about the clowns they were hiring and not training.

It is because of bozo's like this that I take a more formal approach when dealing with the local cops these days. All the ones I used to be friendly with have retired.

Do NOT get me wrong on this. I do my best to avoid trouble,but when I am doing nothing wrong or even questionable,I expect and even demand to be treated with the same casual respect I give to everyone else unless provoked . If you get pushy with me,I push back.  I am a free American citizen,and I am NOT "owned" by anyone.

[roamer_1]

@sneakypete

Which would be pretty cool,but I pretty much wore out any interest in machine guns I may have had when I was a career infantry NCO. The only two things I really care about are accuracy and reliability.

Never had much interest in full-auto myself - Shoot, I just recently got away from a wheel-gun for a pistol (times do change)... The two gents that taught me how had all that - They were both LRRP back in Nam, partnered up there and stayed that way back home. Full-auto just wasn't something I needed very much. More into scouting, tracking, positioning, and long shots.

I got nose to nose with a couple of these clowns a couple of years ago over a roadblock and them getting pushy.

Yeah, I done similar at a sobriety checkpoint. Rankles me they think they can do that. It had been a very long day, and I was coming home after dark with a load of grass on and a cutting rig on the trailer behind... 15 minutes in line, another 15 minutes after I refused to blow, and then I had to go dump the rig and drive into town for a blood test so I could defend myself when it came time to appear... Lawyer fees, lost work... wasn't worth it... but it's the point, dammit. Without PC they have no right to stop or search.

Do NOT get me wrong on this. I do my best to avoid trouble,but when I am doing nothing wrong or even questionable,I expect and even demand to be treated with the same casual respect I give to everyone else unless provoked . If you get pushy with me,I push back.  I am a free American citizen,and I am NOT "owned" by anyone.

YUP. Hell, if I was doing something wrong, they'd be the last folks to know about it.

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

@roamer_1

Yeah, I done similar at a sobriety checkpoint. Rankles me they think they can do that. It had been a very long day, and I was coming home after dark with a load of grass on and a cutting rig on the trailer behind... 15 minutes in line, another 15 minutes after I refused to blow, and then I had to go dump the rig and drive into town for a blood test so I could defend myself when it came time to appear... Lawyer fees, lost work... wasn't worth it... but it's the point, dammit. Without PC they have no right to stop or search.<<

In my roadblock case there was a wildfire,and they were blocking the road to try to keep me and everyone else from getting up the road. My house and my animals were up that road and I needed to get up there to see if they were in any danger. I flat out told the cop "Lookie here,bitch. I have property and animals to protect,and you and your bullshit illegal roadblock are NOT going to stop me. She then threatened to arrest me if I refused to comply,and then I told her to kiss my big red ass and that if she knew what was good for her she would back the bleep up because the Sheriff's Dept had no legal authority to set up a road block or to keep me from accessing my property because the Governor had NOT declared martial law,and I WAS going to go check on my property. I then just drove right around the road block and went to check.

She came up behind me a few minutes later (the 300 lb black cop knew better,but he wasn't the one going around bragging about how much ass he had kicked. That was her),and I told myself right then that if she tried to grab me I was going to beat the dog crap out of her,and that if she tried to taze or shoot me that I was going to put a round in her freaking head to show her how effective her bulletproof vest was. I guess I looked a little intense when she came up to me because she suddenly decided she didn't really want to arrest me without me saying anything else beyond a loud "WHAT?",and got back into her patrol car and went back to the road block.

Good thing for both of us because I was past my tolerance level for aggressive official bullying.

The hilarious part about this is at no time did she even know I had a gun on me. She doesn't know me well enough to know I have a CCW permit,and I had never threatened to shoot her or shown her the gun. I had heard her talking her "I kick a lot of ass and NOBODY gets away from ME!" line of crap at a friends business a couple of times prior to this though and knew she was an aggressive fem-libber,but she would have had an unwelcome introduction to reality if she had tried to put her hands on me,taze me,or pulled her gun on me.