No, Tulsa Cops Didn’t Shoot A Black Man With His Hands Up

[The_Reader_David]

Indeed, in absolute numbers, more whites are killed by police than blacks.  Of course, per capita the rate for blacks is about 180% that of whites.  And, per capita Native Americans are more likely to be killed than blacks.  Is there a "Native Lives Matter" or "Red Lives Matter" movement? 

[thackney]

Indeed, in absolute numbers, more whites are killed by police than blacks.  Of course, per capita the rate for blacks is about 180% that of whites.  And, per capita Native Americans are more likely to be killed than blacks.  Is there a "Native Lives Matter" or "Red Lives Matter" movement?

If you were a cop, would you take into consideration the per capita rates of blacks versus whites that physically attack or shot a cop?

[driftdiver]

I understand the questions that you are mulling over.  Let me add one fact, as it might be helpful in understanding these situations. 

The amount of time it takes the average person to draw a weapon and fire a round is approximately 0.7 seconds.  Not 7 seconds, but 7 tenths of a second.  In other words, if you blink, you might miss the draw!

It is not wise to reach for anything while a police officer has you in his/her sights.

You just outlined the problem.   Cops are running around thinking they are 0.7 seconds from death.  Every single interaction they have with the public is approached from that angle.  In reality cops face a far greater threat from traffic accidents than from violence.   

We shouldn't be "In their sights" unless theres a dang good reason.  This man could have been taken down different ways without shooting him.   

I guess when you live in a police state you need to get used to living 0.7 seconds away from being shot by a cop.

[thackney]

We shouldn't be "In their sights" unless theres a dang good reason.  This man could have been taken down different ways without shooting him.   

Failing to follow basic instructions, reaching back to the vehicle when told to stop, those are the reasons.

I wouldn't give the police a reason to fear my actions.  I'm not that stupid.

You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.  Make your arguments in a court room, not with the office trying to shut down the situation.

[driftdiver]

Failing to follow basic instructions, reaching back to the vehicle when told to stop, those are the reasons.

I wouldn't give the police a reason to fear my actions.  I'm not that stupid.

You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.  Make your arguments in a court room, not with the office trying to shut down the situation.

THE ONLY reason deadly force should be used is because you are a threat to someone (including the cop).   That definition (aka law) has gotten so diluted when it comes to police that its a tragedy.

Failing to follow instructions may be cause for arrest but not for use of deadly force.  Period.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't do what you're told.  I'm saying cops are far to eager to shoot and that hair trigger needs to be removed.

[chae]

Ok I have a friend who's been stopped several times, he's been arrested and spent some time in county (it was for possession of an alligator, long story).  He's half Comanche, half Castilian Spanish.  He said that when he gets pulled over, a few times that cop's attitude changes when he sees a Hispanic last name.  He says that's when it goes from cordial to "Boy, I'm gonna need you to step out of the car." 
That said though, he does what the cop says and he's polite and he's never been shot or roughed up or really had an issue.  According to him bottom line, yes sir, no sir, don't be a butthead and you're good.

[driftdiver]

Ok I have a friend who's been stopped several times, he's been arrested and spent some time in county (it was for possession of an alligator, long story).  He's half Comanche, half Castilian Spanish.  He said that when he gets pulled over, a few times that cop's attitude changes when he sees a Hispanic last name.  He says that's when it goes from cordial to "Boy, I'm gonna need you to step out of the car." 
That said though, he does what the cop says and he's polite and he's never been shot or roughed up or really had an issue.  According to him bottom line, yes sir, no sir, don't be a butthead and you're good.

Yep we must lick the boots of our "public servants" if we don't want to be shot.

I know thats not what you meant but its the reality.

[CSM]

You just outlined the problem.   Cops are running around thinking they are 0.7 seconds from death.  Every single interaction they have with the public is approached from that angle.  In reality cops face a far greater threat from traffic accidents than from violence.   

We shouldn't be "In their sights" unless theres a dang good reason.  This man could have been taken down different ways without shooting him.   

I guess when you live in a police state you need to get used to living 0.7 seconds away from being shot by a cop.

I understand the sentiments of your posting and am in alignment with that sentiment.  However, I think in this particular case it may be misplaced.  I'd also add that for the most part, the police officers that I see are not "walking around thinking they are 0.7 seconds away from death" but when they are in the middle of a situation, then I am sure they ARE on such alert. 

While I believe that every life is valuable, it is still rather amazing that we have statistically so few incidences that result in a police officer shooting someone.  Remember, they don't deal with the average bell curve of society.  They generally deal constantly with the worst elements of the public, so by the statistics it is clear that in general they are very disciplined as a profession.

I do also agree that there is a potential for a bad apple to do much harm and that often they do get protected by the "blue wall."  In cases such as Eric Garner's (NY "loosies" seller that was chocked to death) then I would place the blame on the legislatures that pass rediculous laws that the police are enforcing.  I think that we have much more opportunities to create police states via legislatures, but will agree that individual officers or departments can become tyrants themselves. 

OK, I apologize for my rambling and likely confusing post.  I keep getting interrupted and don't have time to do a proof read....

Let me make one final point regarding your understandable sentimate that this person could have been taken down in other ways.  Yes, and paramount to that was his responsibility to adhere to the commands and go to the ground.  That was the simple solution and the individual failed to take that responsibility seriously.  In addition, the fact that he was shot by a single round, while 5 officers had trained their weapons on him is another sign of incredible restraint on their part....

[driftdiver]

Let me make one final point regarding your understandable sentimate that this person could have been taken down in other ways.  Yes, and paramount to that was his responsibility to adhere to the commands and go to the ground.  That was the simple solution and the individual failed to take that responsibility seriously.  In addition, the fact that he was shot by a single round, while 5 officers had trained their weapons on him is another sign of incredible restraint on their part....

Yes he should have done as he was instructed.  As you said, cops tend to deal with people on the fringes.  Those that don't abide by the law or those who are in a abnormal circumstance.   For all we know he was suffering from low blood sugar and wasn't coherent.  Perhaps he had the flu, thats going around ya know.

I don't view it as restraint that the other cops didn't shoot.  Normally if one cop shoots they all shoot.   But perhaps it was restraint.   Put that aside, why did she only shoot once?   He wasn't on the ground after that one shot.  The "threat" wasn't removed as he was still standing by his window.

[rangerrebew]

Was Terence Crutcher On PCP?
September 21, 2016
Daniel Greenfield
 

The latest gentle giant was apparently gently on PCP. Remember that, supposedly, damning line,

    Two 911 calls described an SUV that had been abandoned in the middle of the road. One unidentified caller said the driver was acting strangely, adding, "I think he's smoking something."

Or the other one...

    Police helicopter footage was among several clips released Monday that show the shooting and aftermath. A man in the helicopter that arrives above the scene as Crutcher walks to the vehicle can be heard saying "time for a Taser" and then: "That looks like a bad dude, too. Probably on something."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/264259/was-terence-crutcher-pcp-daniel-greenfield

[rangerrebew]

The agitators don't care if the video is inconclusive. They've decided they're going to bypass the court of law, and convict all LEO's in the court of public opinion before all the evidence is parsed.

They are just following the lead of Imam Obama who always does the same. :Odance:

[driftdiver]

They are just following the lead of Imam Obama who always does the same. :Odance:

@Axel @rangerrebew

I wouldn't doubt there are a few paid agitators in the group organizing and instigating the riots.

[XenaLee]

I have a different perspective on this case and that relates to deadly use of force by law enforcement officers.

Does mere failure to obey justify shooting and killing someone? <-- that is the more relevant question.

 Simply 'reaching for' something justifies a 'snap decision' to shoot?

Here's the deeper question --- a cop is 'In fear of'  his life, yet, he is required to be 'reasonable and prudent'. What is he supposed to do?

I will grant that, there are murderous Black Lives Matter members and I will grant that there are trouble makers of all stripes who want to destroy cops, but that does not justify the citizenry being nothing more than collateral damage to the 'new normal' of law enforcement.

Put it another way ... does Police Procedure become more important than a citizen's right to life?

Anyone who cannot relate to the grief of the wife and children of Terence Crutcher ought to ask themselves this -- how would you feel if your son/husband was shot by cops for simply reaching out for  ID in his pocket?

If the perp refused to follow the commands of the police at the scene, it begs the question "why".  Either he was high on something (which would explain the running car stopped in the middle of the road)....or he was another belligerent black with an attitude, hell bent on NOT doing what those whitey cops told him to do.  Either way, the guy wasn't too bright and his actions got him killed.

It's the same recurring pattern with these cases.  Perp doesn't follow commands given by police ...or even worse, resists arrest and tries to run.  A sure way to get yourself dead.

[NavyCanDo]

Without passing any judgments one way or the other on whether Mr. Crutcher’s actions warranted the shot fired by Officer Shelby, one thing is 100% clear, and that is that Terence Crutcher’s hands were not raise when he was shot, but down by his side.

The mainstream media is, universally and without question, lying to you about the circumstances of Terence Crutcher’s shooting.

[Oceander]

Failing to follow basic instructions, reaching back to the vehicle when told to stop, those are the reasons.

I wouldn't give the police a reason to fear my actions.  I'm not that stupid.

You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.  Make your arguments in a court room, not with the office trying to shut down the situation.

Those cannot ever be grounds for being shot by a cop unless there are substantial aggravating circumstances.  They had a tazer, why didn't they follow through on using that first?

It's nice as a technical matter that when confronted by a cop you should just stand still and do only what you're commanded to do, but that's not reality.  Reality is that more often than not, the reason a person is confronted by a cop is that the person is not completely rational, and so is very likely to do those things one "should not do" in front of a cop.  Cops have to be trained to deal with this reality, not trained to expect that they either get 100% submission or they are free to fire at will.  This is not the best of all possible worlds, and Candide would make a terrible police officer.

[driftdiver]

Those cannot ever be grounds for being shot by a cop unless there are substantial aggravating circumstances.  They had a tazer, why didn't they follow through on using that first?

It's nice as a technical matter that when confronted by a cop you should just stand still and do only what you're commanded to do, but that's not reality.  Reality is that more often than not, the reason a person is confronted by a cop is that the person is not completely rational, and so is very likely to do those things one "should not do" in front of a cop.  Cops have to be trained to deal with this reality, not trained to expect that they either get 100% submission or they are free to fire at will.  This is not the best of all possible worlds, and Candide would make a terrible police officer.

Yes they've been trained to shoot at the slightest provocation.  That's the problem

[NavyCanDo]

Yes they've been trained to shoot at the slightest provocation.  That's the problem

And you graduated from a Police Academy when?    A basic Police academy course teaches nothing of the sort. 

[driftdiver]

And you graduated from a Police Academy when?    A basic Police academy course teaches nothing of the sort.

Right that's why so many terrorfying black labs get shot.   

Earlier this week there was a story of a cop who got fired because he didn't shoot a guy threatening suicide.

[sinkspur]

You just outlined the problem.   Cops are running around thinking they are 0.7 seconds from death.  Every single interaction they have with the public is approached from that angle.  In reality cops face a far greater threat from traffic accidents than from violence.   

We shouldn't be "In their sights" unless theres a dang good reason.  This man could have been taken down different ways without shooting him.   

I guess when you live in a police state you need to get used to living 0.7 seconds away from being shot by a cop.

The male cop pulls out a tazer and fires.  Betty Shelby pulls out a gun and shoots.

Betty Shelby is in deep trouble.  At the very least she's done in law enforcement.  Too trigger happy.  No doubt she'll be cleared because most cops are.

NO reason to shoot that guy.  None.

[sinkspur]

Right that's why so many terrorfying black labs get shot.   

Earlier this week there was a story of a cop who got fired because he didn't shoot a guy threatening suicide.

Yep.  No dog is safe when a cop is hopped up in a "situation" and has his gun drawn. 

I remember that fool cop that went in a back yard in Salt Lake City three years ago and  a Great Dane (an 'effing Great Dane, one of the mildest mannered dogs around) comes running up to him and he shoots him dead.

Never call a cop unless you have to. You and your family and your pets are never safe when guns are drawn.

[NavyCanDo]

Plenty of evidence here on this thread that on the Right just as on the Left has their own group of people that just don't like nor trust Cops and have no patience to wait for the facts to come out.     And why I try to avoid these thread topics, because it always turns into a pissing match. nuff said.

God Bless the 




 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Plenty of evidence here on this thread that on the Right just as on the Left has their own group of people that just don't like nor trust Cops and have no patience to wait for the facts to come out.     And why I try to avoid these thread topics, because it always turns into a pissing match. nuff said.

God Bless the 




 

I'm usually on the cop's side but I do take an effort to be as objective as possible. Not that you weren't, just saying.

[sinkspur]

Plenty of evidence here on this thread that on the Right just as on the Left has their own group of people that just don't like nor trust Cops and have no patience to wait for the facts to come out.     And why I try to avoid these thread topics, because it always turns into a pissing match. nuff said.

God Bless the 




 

I have two nephews who are street cops, and they tell me every time I see them they just don't understand the new generation of gun-happy police.

[NavyCanDo]

I have two nephews who are street cops, and they tell me every time I see them they just don't understand the new generation of gun-happy police.

You don't have to convince me that there are bad cops, badly trained cops, corruption within departments - I have heard it all.  I as well have family who were officers, cousins - a husband & wife who retired together recently from the Broward County FL Sheriff's Office, he a K9 officer and at the time of  retirement a detective, she a street cop.  And my dad's cousin who graduated from the FBI National Academy, later becoming a police officer and then appointed as the Police Chief of the city where I grew up. I spent a lot of time with all of them and heard the stories both good and bad about the officers they work and superiors. Not all are gems that is for sure, while other are absolute God-sent angles who have a passion for protecting the community and changing lives.

What I am asking is let's not join the hysteria and wait for the facts.     

[Suppressed]

Cops treat every stop as if the person is planning to kill them.

They have to be prepared for that possibility in every encounter.  You never know when a person encountered happens to be a fugitive felon.

Secondly, I think that many civilians don't realize that cops responding often have been given misinformation about the call.  Many people know that to get a faster response, you have to say a person is armed....so they lie about it.  Cops often go into these situations being told the suspect is dangerous.

Just tonight, listening to the Charlotte, NC, scanner, there was a call that a man was walking down the middle of the street with an automatic rifle.  Only later did the dispatcher follow up with, "Please be advised that it might be a guitar".