Author Topic: Stop Lying: #NeverTrump Doesn't 'Want' Hillary To Be President. That's Dumb. (Read 4745 times)

ABX · « **on:** September 13, 2016, 08:32:39 pm »

Quote

The long knives are out for #NeverTrump. As the election quickly approaches, many Trump supporters seem intent on browbeating conservatives who say they won’t vote for Trump into supporting Trump – or at least into silence. The chief tool in their arsenal is the fully intellectually dishonest line, “If you won’t support Trump, you want Hillary Clinton to be elected.”

This mistakes secondary effect for primary motivation......

http://www.dailywire.com/news/9101/stop-lying-nevertrump-doesnt-want-hillary-be-ben-shapiro?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro

goatprairie · « **Reply #1 on:** September 13, 2016, 11:01:28 pm »

Thats sop for the Trumpsters...."you don't like Trump...well then, you must want Hillary to be president!"
That reminds of the Dems who accused Republican congressmen of wanting to kill children and old people because the rate increase the Pubbies wanted for the programs aimed at children or the elderly weren't as large as what the Dems wanted.
Therefore, in Dem "logic", because the Pubbies were skeptical of or didn't want to spend as much money as the Dems, Pubbies wanted to kill children and old people.
Its almost useless trying to argue with many Trumpsters....even if you, like me, might end up pulling the lever for the Orange Toad. But that's not enough for the Trumpsters....you have to worship His Orangeness.
Sorry Trumpsters....I'm looking at two unqualified prez candidates of whom one, Trump, is only slightly better than the other one.

ABX · « **Reply #2 on:** September 13, 2016, 11:34:57 pm »

Quote from: goatprairie on September 13, 2016, 11:01:28 pm

Thats sop for the Trumpsters...."you don't like Trump...well then, you must want Hillary to be president!"
That reminds of the Dems who accused Republican congressmen of wanting to kill children and old people because the rate increase the Pubbies wanted for the programs aimed at children or the elderly weren't as large as what the Dems wanted.
Therefore, in Dem "logic", because the Pubbies were skeptical of or didn't want to spend as much money as the Dems, Pubbies wanted to kill children and old people.
Its almost useless trying to argue with many Trumpsters....even if you, like me, might end up pulling the lever for the Orange Toad. But that's not enough for the Trumpsters....you have to worship His Orangeness.
Sorry Trumpsters....I'm looking at two unqualified prez candidates of whom one, Trump, is only slightly better than the other one.

It is actually right out of classical propaganda technique including Alinsky's Rules for Radicals*. Force people to have a false choice.

Quote

20 False Dilemma known by many names, including “black- and-white thinking,” “false dichotomy,” and “false choice” reducing a complex argument to a small number of alternatives and concluding that only one option is appropriate

21 False Dilemma In this kind of propaganda One product always works, and the other never works.One group intends to save the country, and the other is trying to ruin it.

22 False Dilemma most often in political and ethical discourse One option is described as being good, and the other is made to seem bad, or even evil oversimplifies the situation and denies the existence of any neutral ground You are either an ally or an enemy.

http://slideplayer.com/slide/7935585/

* RULE 11: “The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.”

INVAR · « **Reply #3 on:** September 13, 2016, 11:46:46 pm »

They are going to keep doing it, because it is all they have.

The intent of Hillary's Trojan Stalking Horse was to destroy any Conservative opposition to Hildabeast. Trump not only did that, but also did the Establishment a huge favor by wiping out the Tea Party movement itself, co-opting it and employing Democrat/Alinsky attacks to render Conservatives who will not support Trump with everything from being in Hillary's camp to being a traitor that needs to be shot and killed for treason.

Pile on Ron Paul Mob Zombie retreads from 2012, white supremacists desperate for a voice and watch Trump repeat every single cartoon caricature ever made of the Conservative image by the Left.

240B · « **Reply #4 on:** September 13, 2016, 11:50:14 pm »

“If you won’t support Trump, you want Hillary Clinton to be elected.”

This is a deliberately misleading and false statement presented as an absolute. What any logical rational person, whether they support Trump or not, is saying is that NeverTrump is helping Hillary.

Whether or not #NeverTrump 'wants' Hillary to be elected is irrelevant and is not the point. The only single point is that #NeverTrump is helping Hillary to be elected. Willful blindness and a stubborn refusal to admit the obvious does not change the reality of the situation.

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #5 on:** September 14, 2016, 11:54:11 am »

Quote from: 240B on September 13, 2016, 11:50:14 pm

“If you won’t support Trump, you want Hillary Clinton to be elected.”

This is a deliberately misleading and false statement presented as an absolute. What any logical rational person, whether they support Trump or not, is saying is that NeverTrump is helping Hillary.

Whether or not #NeverTrump 'wants' Hillary to be elected is irrelevant and is not the point. The only single point is that #NeverTrump is helping Hillary to be elected. Willful blindness and a stubborn refusal to admit the obvious does not change the reality of the situation.

Exactly right.

Jazzhead · « **Reply #6 on:** September 14, 2016, 12:09:39 pm »

Quote from: 240B on September 13, 2016, 11:50:14 pm

Whether or not #NeverTrump 'wants' Hillary to be elected is irrelevant and is not the point. The only single point is that #NeverTrump is helping Hillary to be elected. Willful blindness and a stubborn refusal to admit the obvious does not change the reality of the situation.

Of course. No willful blindness here. I'll grant you everything you say about Clinton. What I say is Trump's worse.

Any "willful blindness" is on the part of those that can't see the threat of fascism that Trump represents.

240B · « **Reply #7 on:** September 14, 2016, 04:54:23 pm »

Quote from: Jazzhead on September 14, 2016, 12:09:39 pm

Of course. No willful blindness here. I'll grant you everything you say about Clinton. What I say is Trump's worse.

Any "willful blindness" is on the part of those that can't see the threat of fascism that Trump represents.

Good for you! @Jazzhead. My respect for you has skyrocketed. I disagree with you on Trump, but I respect your honesty about Clinton.

I had resigned myself that I would never hear a NeverTrump admit the glaring obvious truth in front of everyone's eyes.

Thank you for that. I feel better now.

musiclady · « **Reply #8 on:** September 14, 2016, 05:09:22 pm »

They won't stop lying. It's what leftists do.

The idea that Conservatives want Hillary to win is so dopey it wouldn't pass a 3rd graders logic, and yet they continue to regurgitate the lie.

As @INVAR said above........ it's all they have. There is absolutely NO reason to vote FOR Trump. He is a despicable person, a horrible candidate, a hard-core liberal, and a pathological liar.

So to try to get us to vote for him, they just keep lying.

And failing.......

musiclady · « **Reply #9 on:** September 14, 2016, 05:11:39 pm »

Quote from: goatprairie on September 13, 2016, 11:01:28 pm

Thats sop for the Trumpsters...."you don't like Trump...well then, you must want Hillary to be president!"
That reminds of the Dems who accused Republican congressmen of wanting to kill children and old people because the rate increase the Pubbies wanted for the programs aimed at children or the elderly weren't as large as what the Dems wanted.
Therefore, in Dem "logic", because the Pubbies were skeptical of or didn't want to spend as much money as the Dems, Pubbies wanted to kill children and old people.
Its almost useless trying to argue with many Trumpsters....even if you, like me, might end up pulling the lever for the Orange Toad. But that's not enough for the Trumpsters....you have to worship His Orangeness.
Sorry Trumpsters....I'm looking at two unqualified prez candidates of whom one, Trump, is only slightly better than the other one.

If you factor in the insanity, you'd be hard pressed to prove that he's even 'slightly' better than Hillary.

As I see it, evil is evil, and I'm not voting for either.

massadvj · « **Reply #10 on:** September 14, 2016, 05:14:39 pm »

I don't believe that the #NeverTrump crowd wants Hillary to be president, but I do believe they are obsessed with bringing Trump down.

There is a long tradition of Republicans unhappy with the nominee shutting up during the general election. But for reasons I don't understand, the #NeverTrump crowd seems intent on intentionally sabotaging Trump as opposed to just letting the electorate make its choice.

thackney · « **Reply #11 on:** September 14, 2016, 05:19:41 pm »

Quote from: 240B on September 13, 2016, 11:50:14 pm

“If you won’t support Trump, you want Hillary Clinton to be elected.”

This is a deliberately misleading and false statement presented as an absolute. What any logical rational person, whether they support Trump or not, is saying is that NeverTrump is helping Hillary.

Whether or not #NeverTrump 'wants' Hillary to be elected is irrelevant and is not the point. The only single point is that #NeverTrump is helping Hillary to be elected. Willful blindness and a stubborn refusal to admit the obvious does not change the reality of the situation.

A third person said, “I agree with the analysis of both candidates, which is why I won’t vote for either. I’ll either abstain or vote for a third-party candidate.”

This caused the anti-Trump spokesperson to protest, “To not vote for Clinton is to vote for Trump.” To which the anti-Hillary advocate countered, “No, to not vote for Trump is to vote for Clinton.” Finally, the abstainer replied, “So I vote twice by doing nothing? I didn’t realize inaction was so powerful!”

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,224974.msg1053941.html#msg1053941

- - - - - -

When not voting for Hillary has the same impact as not voting for Trump, it is rather silly to claim it helps one side over the other.

jmyrlefuller · « **Reply #12 on:** September 14, 2016, 11:25:38 pm »

Quote from: 240B on September 13, 2016, 11:50:14 pm

“If you won’t support Trump, you want Hillary Clinton to be elected.”

This is a deliberately misleading and false statement presented as an absolute. What any logical rational person, whether they support Trump or not, is saying is that NeverTrump is helping Hillary.

Whether or not #NeverTrump 'wants' Hillary to be elected is irrelevant and is not the point. The only single point is that #NeverTrump is helping Hillary to be elected. Willful blindness and a stubborn refusal to admit the obvious does not change the reality of the situation.

Ah, but you have, like so many others in the Trump caucus, made a crucial error:

You have assumed our votes are Republican by default, and thus assume our vote is actually moving in a direction from the default position by not voting for the Republican.

As I have pointed out in my signature, no candidate or party is entitled to my vote by default.

goatprairie · « **Reply #13 on:** September 15, 2016, 02:17:35 pm »

Quote from: Right_in_Virginia on September 14, 2016, 11:54:11 am

Exactly right.

Exactly wrong. I support Hillary only if I vote for her and/or campaign for her. You could say the same thing about people who vote for Libertarians. I guess Libertarians should not be allowed to promote or vote for their candidate, because they would be "helping" Hillary.
What you still fail to grasp is the NeverTrumpers (I am not one) and the NeverHillarys have good reasons to oppose both. Voting for either candidate would indicate that people are either complacent or promoting either candidate. The people who oppose both Trump and Clinton see both as dangerous to the health of the republic. By not voting for either one they are supporting the Republic.

musiclady · « **Reply #14 on:** September 15, 2016, 02:49:50 pm »

Quote from: massadvj on September 14, 2016, 05:14:39 pm

I don't believe that the #NeverTrump crowd wants Hillary to be president, but I do believe they are obsessed with bringing Trump down.

There is a long tradition of Republicans unhappy with the nominee shutting up during the general election. But for reasons I don't understand, the #NeverTrump crowd seems intent on intentionally sabotaging Trump as opposed to just letting the electorate make its choice.

I disagree with your assessment @massadvj . While there may be some who are obsessed with "bringing Trump down," I believe the vast majority of us are just "obsessed" with Conservatism and Constitutional principles, and distressed that the nominee who is supposed to be in our corner....... at least to a degree........ is completely opposed to everything we believe.

There is a huge difference between Trump and any past candidate in that Trump is not even a moderate/liberal Republican. He is a full out leftist.

Just. Like. Hillary.

massadvj · « **Reply #15 on:** September 15, 2016, 03:36:32 pm »

Quote from: musiclady on September 15, 2016, 02:49:50 pm

Just. Like. Hillary.

He is a terrible representative of the GOP. Agreed. But Hillary is worse by a whisker because she empowers the other party.

Idaho_Cowboy · « **Reply #16 on:** September 15, 2016, 03:41:11 pm »

If Trump is working for Clinton then both sides are helping so it's a bit of a catch 22. We've been had.

musiclady · « **Reply #17 on:** September 15, 2016, 03:48:11 pm »

Quote from: massadvj on September 15, 2016, 03:36:32 pm

He is a terrible representative of the GOP. Agreed. But Hillary is worse by a whisker because she empowers the other party.

That's a debatable point. Is the enemy within not more dangerous than the enemy without?

mirvin · « **Reply #18 on:** September 15, 2016, 04:09:46 pm »

Quote

Stop Lying: #NeverTrump Doesn't 'Want' Hillary To Be President. That's Dumb.

MIRVIN doesn't want to be hit by the car coming at him, but he still doesn't want to move from his principled spot in the road.

And since I'm pretty sure that Hillary won't step down,
and Trump will take her spot on the DNC ticket,
and we get to nominate Cruz or Walker to fill the RNC ticket,
and the Libertarian Party becomes a real party so they can get their second electoral vote since the only other one they got in 1972,
and more than 50 people will ever hear the name Darrell Castle

..... I'm going to have to pull the switch for Trump, walk behind the school gym, and puke.

bolobaby · « **Reply #19 on:** September 15, 2016, 04:11:46 pm »

Quote from: 240B on September 13, 2016, 11:50:14 pm

“If you won’t support Trump, you want Hillary Clinton to be elected.”

...

Whether or not #NeverTrump 'wants' Hillary to be elected is irrelevant and is not the point. The only single point is that #NeverTrump is helping Hillary to be elected. Willful blindness and a stubborn refusal to admit the obvious does not change the reality of the situation.

@240B

Here we go with this crock of sh!t lie again.

Let's play your game. Right now, Nigeria, Cameroon, Niger, and Chad are all fighting against Boko Haram. The United States has the military might to put 100,000 boots on the ground and all but crush Boko Haram. We choose not to.

So, since we aren't supporting Nigeria, Cameroon, Niger and Chad like we *could be* we are "helping Boko Haram to win?"

Really?

Stop. Your logical fallacy has been exposed one too many times. Now you are just embarrassing yourself by spouting the same old crap, over and over again.

bolobaby · « **Reply #20 on:** September 15, 2016, 04:23:50 pm »

Quote from: massadvj on September 15, 2016, 03:36:32 pm

He is a terrible representative of the GOP. Agreed. But Hillary is worse by a whisker because she empowers the other party.

@massadvj

No. Right now we are standing under the shadow of 20T in debt. We are about to get crushed when the sovereign debt house of cards comes crashing down.

If we had elected a true conservative, we might have had a chance to start reversing the problem and deal with it. Painfully, of course, but deal with it.

Instead, we have a choice between one of two NY big-spending liberals. If you believe like I do, that Trump will only exacerbate and accelerate the sovereign debt problem, then - when the whole thing collapses - if a Republican is in power, the American people will blame the conservatives. This is how they operate. The electorate as a whole has almost no long-term memory, nor ability to understand the true genesis of a problem. Their fires will be stoked by the democrats and a willing press, allowing the GOP to be blamed for it all, and ensuring that conservative concepts are swept aside for generations in favor of socialist solutions designed to "save" us.

This is how socialists come to power. Trump will do NOTHING to stop it - he'll just ensure it happens.

If Hillary is president when the house of cards comes tumbling down, we'll at least have a chance to say, "See! It is the big spending liberals and their unsustainable socialist agenda that caused this!" Since we won't have a compliant press, we won't be assured to bury the libtards, but we'll at least have a fighting chance to get our side heard.

So there you have it:

1. Vote Trump. Watch him betray you AND watch conservatives get blamed for generations when the sovereign debt crisis is fully realized.

2. Vote Hillary. Watch her screw up the country AND watch conservatives have a fighting chance to finally shine a light on the truth about whose fault it is.

Sometimes it makes sense to give the other side a Pyrrhic victory.

(I should point out that I don't want Hillary to win, nor do I intend on helping her win. This is to answer the question about who is ultimately *worse*. They are both very, very bad. I intend on helping neither - let those who enjoy eating crap sandwiches eat from this year's buffet.)

massadvj · « **Reply #21 on:** September 15, 2016, 04:24:38 pm »

Quote from: musiclady on September 15, 2016, 03:48:11 pm

That's a debatable point. Is the enemy within not more dangerous than the enemy without?

It is debatable. And that is why I am refraining from overt criticism of Trump until after the election. If the electorate chooses Hillary, it will not be because of anything I said or did to disengage people from Trump.

musiclady · « **Reply #22 on:** September 15, 2016, 04:37:37 pm »

Quote from: massadvj on September 15, 2016, 04:24:38 pm

It is debatable. And that is why I am refraining from overt criticism of Trump until after the election. If the electorate chooses Hillary, it will not be because of anything I said or did to disengage people from Trump.

People who are going to vote for Trump are not likely to be dissuaded by anything any of us say.

Trump himself is all anyone needs to assess whether or not he is worthy of their votes.

And if they look hard, it's going to be difficult to impossible to pull the lever for him.

I am on the record as saying I understand, though disagree with the decision to vote for him as slightly better than Hillary.

Jazzhead · « **Reply #23 on:** September 15, 2016, 04:39:26 pm »

Quote from: 240B on September 14, 2016, 04:54:23 pm

Good for you! @Jazzhead. My respect for you has skyrocketed. I disagree with you on Trump, but I respect your honesty about Clinton.

I had resigned myself that I would never hear a NeverTrump admit the glaring obvious truth in front of everyone's eyes.

Thank you for that. I feel better now.

To be clear I don't "want" Hillary to be elected. That's why I advocated as I did for the candidate that was in the best position to defeat her. But now it's Clinton vs. Trump, and it's time to choose which one is least horrible.

Although, as I've pointed out before, the binary choice we face is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The most productive thing we can perhaps do at this point is vote third party, to try to free ourselves from this rancid two-party system that have given us choices that make honest men and women vomit.

XenaLee · « **Reply #24 on:** September 15, 2016, 04:42:10 pm »

Quote from: bolobaby on September 15, 2016, 04:23:50 pm

@massadvj

No. Right now we are standing under the shadow of 20T in debt. We are about to get crushed when the sovereign debt house of cards comes crashing down.

If we had elected a true conservative, we might have had a chance to start reversing the problem and deal with it. Painfully, of course, but deal with it.

Instead, we have a choice between one of two NY big-spending liberals. If you believe like I do, that Trump will only exacerbate and accelerate the sovereign debt problem, then - when the whole thing collapses - if a Republican is in power, the American people will blame the conservatives. This is how they operate. The electorate as a whole has almost no long-term memory, nor ability to understand the true genesis of a problem. Their fires will be stoked by the democrats and a willing press, allowing the GOP to be blamed for it all, and ensuring that conservative concepts are swept aside for generations in favor of socialist solutions designed to "save" us.

This is how socialists come to power. Trump will do NOTHING to stop it - he'll just ensure it happens.

If Hillary is president when the house of cards comes tumbling down, we'll at least have a chance to say, "See! It is the big spending liberals and their unsustainable socialist agenda that caused this!" Since we won't have a compliant press, we won't be assured to bury the libtards, but we'll at least have a fighting chance to get our side heard.

So there you have it:

1. Vote Trump. Watch him betray you AND watch conservatives get blamed for generations when the sovereign debt crisis is fully realized.

2. Vote Hillary. Watch her screw up the country AND watch conservatives have a fighting chance to finally shine a light on the truth about whose fault it is.

Sometimes it makes sense to give the other side a Pyrrhic victory.

(I should point out that I don't want Hillary to win, nor do I intend on helping her win. This is to answer the question about who is ultimately *worse*. They are both very, very bad. I intend on helping neither - let those who enjoy eating crap sandwiches eat from this year's buffet.)

A perfect analogy of how....we're damned if we do (vote for Trump and Trump wins) and damned if we don't (don't vote for Trump and Hillary wins). And since I am still convinced that Trump is not 'in it to win it'....any vote for Trump of mine would be wasted anyway.

And....since we're damned either way, I'm voting for Castle. At least I will have voted MY principles and conscience. Let everyone else do as they please.