Author Topic: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers  (Read 25624 times)

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Offline Truthsearcher

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2016, 06:12:13 am »
His opponent doesn't factor into anything.
My vote is my endorsement. That is all it can ever be.
Trump is not worthy of the office, or of Conservatism's approval.

To extrapolate your position, if Conservatives thought as you do, Trump would not only be elected, but elected with a massive mandate - That would be Conservatism mandating (demanding approvingly) his liberalism. That doesn't make sense, does it?

That is precisely the thinking that has left us with an overwhelming majority of liberal Republicans not only in leadership, but in the entirety of the Republican machine (to include House and Senate). At what point do we admit that the party platform means nothing at all? How does one advance that platform, when the party itself does not believe in it? What good are the numbers if it won't stand for the very things which we purport to stand and associate for?

That is the problem with lesser evil. That is why your vote, in the aggregate, can only be approval. As long as people continue to endorse RINOs rather than Conservatism, RINOs are what will be produced. If you are willing to vote them in, what right is there to complain when they do what they will inevitably do?

I disagree with you premise n that the only reason to vote is to approve someone, or to advance a movement. Yes, those are factors, but not the only ones. Sometimes the vote is used  just for practical reasons.  Sometimes is just a defensive action, or to voice strong disapproval of another candidate.   So yes, I wish to withhold approval of Trump, but maybe my need to express my disapproval of Hillary is even stronger and overcomes that. 

Yes, I have a major problem with people who's bought into the cult of personality of Trump to the point the twist themselves into supporting his socialist paid maternity leave nonsense.  But I don't have  a problem with someone doing what that Mark Levin is doing, which is to express disagreement with Trump on all his wrongheaded proposals, yet still be willing to make use of his vote in a way that to him best accomplishes the goal of denying Hillary the presidency. 

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2016, 06:14:11 am »
I am not a Trumper, as I said I'm undecided at this point, but I am actually interested in discussing this.

For me the "line in the sand" stuff just doesn't work, because life is usually not about lines but about where you are on the slope. Surely there are people who even you would consider significantly enough worse than Trump that you'd act to ensure their defeat?  Let's say the moral equivalent of Stalin or Mao or Robespierre.   Are you saying that Trump is so bad there is not a conceivable person worse enough than him that you'd vote for him?  If you say yes then I'd have to disagree with you, as much as I don't like Trump he's nowhere near "the worst person who ever lived".  And really, the "we shouldn't vote for the lesser of two evils instead of voting for good" doesn't really work for me either.  Because to me in any election you're always voting for the lesser of evils, human beings are fallen and sinful, none of them are angels, even Reagan made plenty of mistakes.  Anyone who thinks that the person he/she is voting for is an angel is deluded.

So assuming you agree with me that the choice is always between the less of evils, and that there are people so bad that if they were running you'd vote for Trump against them. The only question is whether you think Hillary fits into that category, and if someone makes a different judgement call it's just that, a different judgement call.

Discussion would mean that there are two positions of equal value. there are not. There is right and there is wrong. there is good and there is evil. There is nothing to discuss. Only debate. I take the position that evil/wrong/liberal is the problem. to debate that, one would have to argue that evil/liberal/wrong is an acceptable outcome and that we should accept evil/liberal/wrong as the leadership of America.

The positions taken by Donald Trump and his supporters are evil/liberal/wrong. He is against freedom of faith as demonstrated by his acceptance of a woman left to rot in a jail cell because she would not abandon that faith to endorse another Trump favored group. Homosexuals/gay marriage. It is ALSO an evil position to allow Trannies into bathrooms of their choices. It is morally corrupt and it puts women and children in danger. The facts, crimes already and mental health studies bear that out.

It is evil in the extreme to change ones political positions to gain votes when those decisions put American lives in danger. Among other things, Trump went from a Yuuuuge! wall and mass deportation to the Rick Perry virtual fence and limited at best deportation. Illegals are illegal for a reason. the rule of law applies or the rule of man applies.

His ever shifting position on abortion and his trial ballooning of liberal Supreme Court justices is likewise evil. There is nothing in either to debate, discuss or anything else.

His myriad contributions to hard leftists like Clinton and his ever shifting statements on guns/support of not one but TWO leftist NYC mayors (one of which is a card carrying Communist) with anti 2A agendas flies in the face of everything a free and constitutional governance stands for. To deny the right of self defense to anyone is an act of evil. And Donnie does not singularly have the right, moral, legal or otherwise, to make such a call regardless.

And that's history. Anyone that would vote for such a man is not conservative. Any person who would vote for such a man is every bit as unprincipled and morally bankrupt as he is. To claim otherwise would directly imply that empowering evil and moral bankruptcy, along with attacks on the very foundations of faith and freedom that built America, is a positive outcome that should be championed above good, constitutional and moral governance.

You wanna make that argument in public? Because those are the facts of the matter and being historically accurate and documented, the facts here are not debatable.

It does not matter one hair on a gopher's arse that Hillary is his opponent. It does not matter if Satan in the flesh was his opponent. When you empower evil, you get evil. Good people do not empower the level of evil Donald Trump represents through his actions and ever changing statements.

Ever.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 06:17:03 am by Norm Lenhart »

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2016, 06:28:23 am »
Discussion would mean that there are two positions of equal value. there are not. There is right and there is wrong. there is good and there is evil. There is nothing to discuss. Only debate. I take the position that evil/wrong/liberal is the problem. to debate that, one would have to argue that evil/liberal/wrong is an acceptable outcome and that we should accept evil/liberal/wrong as the leadership of America.

The positions taken by Donald Trump and his supporters are evil/liberal/wrong. He is against freedom of faith as demonstrated by his acceptance of a woman left to rot in a jail cell because she would not abandon that faith to endorse another Trump favored group. Homosexuals/gay marriage. It is ALSO an evil position to allow Trannies into bathrooms of their choices. It is morally corrupt and it puts women and children in danger. The facts, crimes already and mental health studies bear that out.

It is evil in the extreme to change ones political positions to gain votes when those decisions put American lives in danger. Among other things, Trump went from a Yuuuuge! wall and mass deportation to the Rick Perry virtual fence and limited at best deportation. Illegals are illegal for a reason. the rule of law applies or the rule of man applies.

His ever shifting position on abortion and his trial ballooning of liberal Supreme Court justices is likewise evil. There is nothing in either to debate, discuss or anything else.

His myriad contributions to hard leftists like Clinton and his ever shifting statements on guns/support of not one but TWO leftist NYC mayors (one of which is a card carrying Communist) with anti 2A agendas flies in the face of everything a free and constitutional governance stands for. To deny the right of self defense to anyone is an act of evil. And Donnie does not singularly have the right, moral, legal or otherwise, to make such a call regardless.

And that's history. Anyone that would vote for such a man is not conservative. Any person who would vote for such a man is every bit as unprincipled and morally bankrupt as he is. To claim otherwise would directly imply that empowering evil and moral bankruptcy, along with attacks on the very foundations of faith and freedom that built America, is a positive outcome that should be championed above good, constitutional and moral governance.

You wanna make that argument in public? Because those are the facts of the matter and being historically accurate and documented, the facts here are not debatable.

It does not matter one hair on a gopher's arse that Hillary is his opponent. It does not matter if Satan in the flesh was his opponent. When you empower evil, you get evil. Good people do not empower the level of evil Donald Trump represents through his actions and ever changing statements.

Ever.

Great post Norm.   There is a wealth of information that PROVES Trump is a liberal/progressive.  Only now when wants the GOP/conservative vote does he claim to be something he has not been all his adult life.  Only a fool would fall for his scam; unfortunately, fall for it they have.

To those who trust Trump I ask; name another liberal you trust and if you can't, why do you trust liberal Donald Trump?


Offline Truthsearcher

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2016, 06:34:11 am »
Discussion would mean that there are two positions of equal value. there are not. There is right and there is wrong. there is good and there is evil. There is nothing to discuss. Only debate. I take the position that evil/wrong/liberal is the problem. to debate that, one would have to argue that evil/liberal/wrong is an acceptable outcome and that we should accept evil/liberal/wrong as the leadership of America.

The positions taken by Donald Trump and his supporters are evil/liberal/wrong. He is against freedom of faith as demonstrated by his acceptance of a woman left to rot in a jail cell because she would not abandon that faith to endorse another Trump favored group. Homosexuals/gay marriage. It is ALSO an evil position to allow Trannies into bathrooms of their choices. It is morally corrupt and it puts women and children in danger. The facts, crimes already and mental health studies bear that out.

It is evil in the extreme to change ones political positions to gain votes when those decisions put American lives in danger. Among other things, Trump went from a Yuuuuge! wall and mass deportation to the Rick Perry virtual fence and limited at best deportation. Illegals are illegal for a reason. the rule of law applies or the rule of man applies.

His ever shifting position on abortion and his trial ballooning of liberal Supreme Court justices is likewise evil. There is nothing in either to debate, discuss or anything else.

His myriad contributions to hard leftists like Clinton and his ever shifting statements on guns/support of not one but TWO leftist NYC mayors (one of which is a card carrying Communist) with anti 2A agendas flies in the face of everything a free and constitutional governance stands for. To deny the right of self defense to anyone is an act of evil. And Donnie does not singularly have the right, moral, legal or otherwise, to make such a call regardless.

And that's history. Anyone that would vote for such a man is not conservative. Any person who would vote for such a man is every bit as unprincipled and morally bankrupt as he is. To claim otherwise would directly imply that empowering evil and moral bankruptcy, along with attacks on the very foundations of faith and freedom that built America, is a positive outcome that should be championed above good, constitutional and moral governance.

You wanna make that argument in public? Because those are the facts of the matter and being historically accurate and documented, the facts here are not debatable.

It does not matter one hair on a gopher's arse that Hillary is his opponent. It does not matter if Satan in the flesh was his opponent. When you empower evil, you get evil. Good people do not empower the level of evil Donald Trump represents through his actions and ever changing statements.

Ever.

But you haven't addressed my main point, which is that no election ever puts us in the position of voting for good vs evil. Because it's always two (or more) flawed humans each with their own mixture of good and evil. If the argument is that we can never vote for someone who takes/have taken/likely in the future to take even one evil position, then we should abandon the entire concept of having elections. 

Election are almost always about picking the least worst option, it's just in 2016 the least bad option is worse than it's ever been.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 06:34:55 am by Truthsearcher »

Offline INVAR

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2016, 06:44:42 am »
Election are almost always about picking the least worst option, it's just in 2016 the least bad option is worse than it's ever been.

Then do not be surprised that by next cycle your "choice" will be a genocidal Fascist or a tyrannical open-card Marxist.

It is that mindset that has consigned our culture and nation to it's demise, because everyone justifies selecting wicked people with characters so vapid and heinous that the only way to 'choose' them is to lie to yourself that they are not as bad as the other guy.

It's how you lost a Constitutional Republic.

So if you want to know why it is that things are the way they are in the near future, look in the mirror - and then realize your culture and population don't give a tinker's damn about anything related to liberty.  Only what stuff they can get, or what punishments they can dole out.

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Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #130 on: September 16, 2016, 06:45:29 am »
But you haven't addressed my main point, which is that no election ever puts us in the position of voting for good vs evil. Because it's always two (or more) flawed humans each with their own mixture of good and evil. If the argument is that we can never vote for someone who takes/have taken/likely in the future to take even one evil position, then we should abandon the entire concept of having elections. 

Election are almost always about picking the least worst option, it's just in 2016 the least bad option is worse than it's ever been.

Of course I did. Whether or not you choose to accept the truth of it is up to you.'

As long as multiple options exist to vote for, and because of a write in option there are over 150,000,000 eligible choices, the entire argument of choosing one evil candidate over another is at best, academic.

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #131 on: September 16, 2016, 06:58:47 am »
I disagree with you premise n that the only reason to vote is to approve someone, or to advance a movement. Yes, those are factors, but not the only ones. Sometimes the vote is used  just for practical reasons.  Sometimes is just a defensive action, or to voice strong disapproval of another candidate.   So yes, I wish to withhold approval of Trump, but maybe my need to express my disapproval of Hillary is even stronger and overcomes that. 


I understand all that - Which is why I left the Republican party in 07 and won't be back.

Offline Truthsearcher

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2016, 07:31:19 am »
Of course I did. Whether or not you choose to accept the truth of it is up to you.'

As long as multiple options exist to vote for, and because of a write in option there are over 150,000,000 eligible choices, the entire argument of choosing one evil candidate over another is at best, academic.

150,000,000 all of whom are flawed. 

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #133 on: September 16, 2016, 07:43:24 am »
150,000,000 all of whom are flawed.

And thus the standard of 'no standard'.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #134 on: September 16, 2016, 12:43:47 pm »
But you haven't addressed my main point, which is that no election ever puts us in the position of voting for good vs evil. Because it's always two (or more) flawed humans each with their own mixture of good and evil. If the argument is that we can never vote for someone who takes/have taken/likely in the future to take even one evil position, then we should abandon the entire concept of having elections. 

Election are almost always about picking the least worst option, it's just in 2016 the least bad option is worse than it's ever been.
Let me put it this way, sometimes the choice appears to be between the perfect and the good. Unfortunately, we're not choosing between George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, but between Hillary and Donald, or, as I have put it, a choice for the future, when the ashes of the GOP are cooling, an opponent to the Marxists with the US Constitution for a platform.

In this case, the 'lesser evil' is problematical.
First, there is the question of stance on the issues.
We know Hillary is a corrupt Socialist who will treat out military with contempt and our nation as a source of revenue, who will enact a Socialist agenda for fun and profit.
We have been told by a man who lied mercilessly  about his opponents through the primary campaign that he would do things he has no power to do if elected, and he has walked back those seminal positions. He has harnessed the anger and frustration of a significant voting bloc, but anger and frustration don't work together to craft wise policy at home or abroad. Many of the positions which allowed him to harness that anger he has reneged on, and the votes aren't even in. What he does bring to the table are liberal stances on a wide variety of seminal conservative issues, stances which are as socialist or more so than those of his opponent. This isn't anywhere close to Conservative belief, and by endorsing such, the GOP loses its claim to conservatism, by abandoning those core beliefs.
I am first and foremost  a Constitutional Conservative, if I have to pick a label, and while the GOP has treated my ilk shabbily in the past, this will leave those of us who are fighting to keep the concept of a constitutional Republic alive with no place at the table. All the more reason to not support the GOP, which will, in essence with the embrace of Liberal positions on issues, effectively render its party platform moot. Why contribute to that when there is another party which embraces all I believe in and the Constitution? Better to build that party into a political force rather than spend any more time and treasure trying to get the GOP to even slow it's shift to the Left. That helm has been unresponsive since Reagan, and the vessel is headed for the rocks.
I see voting for Trump as accelerating that process, not slowing it, and while Hillary is a predictable outcome, I wouldn't vote for her either.
There are those who claim Trump will do this or that which will "Make America Great Again", but he considers Government to be the dominating factor in that. America is Great. America would be greater if the government would get the hell out of the way domestically, and do what it is supposed to do--and no more. (Provide for the common defense (including securing the borders), coin money, settle disputes between the sovereign states, provide standardized weights and measures for trade, and keep the post roads open).
Then, ultimately, we are left also with a question of credibility. For one so given to incontinent prevarication to have any credibility with the electorate is simply amazing.  We have been lied to before. If anything that is a great source of the anger Mr. Trump has harnessed, in that the Congress elected to repeal Obamacare or stop its implementation has caved in every respect to the Obama administration, giving it all it has wanted and more.  While there have been a few stalwart Conservatives in the Congress, the majority succumbed to 'Beltway Fever', some even before arriving in D.C.
The sad part is that Mr. Trump has already walked back the conservative positions he espoused to harness that anger, and is currently in competition with his opponent, promising to deliver even more free sh*t than she will because he is not one to be outdone. That to me is evil competing to see who is the more perfect evil, not the lesser of anything.

Outside of that snake pit, though, there are options. There are 70 plus other parties in the United States, some quite serious, some better known, some perhaps political satire. Of those parties one has embraced the Constitution of the United States as its Party platform, and has embraced the original intent of the Founders and that wisdom as the model for the Government which should go forward. That would return power to the States and the People,  reduce the size and scope of the Federal Government (and expense), and roll back the clock on globalist entanglements that threaten our sovereignty as a nation, especially the ceding of dominion over our lands and policies to the UN. What's not to like? 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #135 on: September 16, 2016, 02:34:33 pm »
I'm still undecided, my reason for still considering voting for him is that I want to see the media who worship Hillary get kicked in the nuts.  Even if Trump ends up being as bad as Hillary, the schadenfreude from watching their sad faces  might be worth it.

True, and if Trump wins on election night, the only true "joy" in it would be watching the rending of clothes on the left.  Of course, the flip side would be watching the freak-out of TOS-type Trump fanatics freaking out if he loses.  There's a bit of schadenfreude there as well, even though I'm voting for the guy as well.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #136 on: September 16, 2016, 02:44:26 pm »
I disagree with you premise n that the only reason to vote is to approve someone, or to advance a movement. Yes, those are factors, but not the only ones. Sometimes the vote is used  just for practical reasons.  Sometimes is just a defensive action, or to voice strong disapproval of another candidate.   So yes, I wish to withhold approval of Trump, but maybe my need to express my disapproval of Hillary is even stronger and overcomes that. 

Yes, I have a major problem with people who's bought into the cult of personality of Trump to the point the twist themselves into supporting his socialist paid maternity leave nonsense.  But I don't have  a problem with someone doing what that Mark Levin is doing, which is to express disagreement with Trump on all his wrongheaded proposals, yet still be willing to make use of his vote in a way that to him best accomplishes the goal of denying Hillary the presidency.

Just wanted to say I agree 100% with your entire line of argument on this point in this thread.

I think of a vote for Trump as a rear-guard action.  It's the difference between an orderly retreat, with hope for regrouping and eventually counter-attacking, and an out-and-out rout that leaves you with nothing.  I see Hillary's election as the latter.  After 8 years of Obama, and with the Democrat machine in power for 12 straight years, I fear the changes to the Supreme Court, the military, and solidification of the progressive agenda on immigration and regulation, will be irreversible.  That's a sure lose path in the long term.

Trump is wrong on many issues.  But, there is a reasonable chance he'll be better than her in terms of the Court, on immigration, and on regulation.  Things might still be salvageable in 2020 if he wins because there wouldn't be the same degree of structural change with him that there would be with Hillary.  Having the full support of the progressive political machine is simply too dangerous.

I don't like him, but as someone else put it, given a (realistic) choice between a crap sandwich and a mouthful of strychnine, I'll take a bite of that sandwich.

I know the response of this from some is "why not refuse to swallow either", but reality says that voters are going to choose one or another.  So even if I don't "choose" that strychnine, I'm going to be strapped down and have it injected into me by force.  Choice has got nothing to do with it.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 02:46:07 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline INVAR

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #137 on: September 16, 2016, 03:02:04 pm »
I think of a vote for Trump as a rear-guard action.  It's the difference between an orderly retreat, with hope for regrouping and eventually counter-attacking, and an out-and-out rout that leaves you with nothing. 

We've been voting 'rear-guard' actions since Bob Dole until the electorate are now left with two NY liberal Democrats as the so-called only 'choice' to make and the nation has gone off the Leftist cliff.

As long as we keep following the same exact prescription you suggest - next "election" would be between 2 candidates who hail from the CPUSA or worse.

A 'rear guard' action at this point is refusing to have a hand in choosing an abomination for ruler and in building a new Constitutional party outside of the grip of Mordor on the Potomac.

Vote for a liberal, get a liberal, even if you deceive yourself into thinking you are saving us from something worse.

The nation still falls off the cliff to the Left.

At some point you have to stop practicing insanity or the consequences will ensure it doesn't matter anymore.

I know the response of this from some is "why not refuse to swallow either", but reality says that voters are going to choose one or another.  So even if I don't "choose" that strychnine, I'm going to be strapped down and have it injected into me by force.  Choice has got nothing to do with it.

That's the 'go' signal to resist.

So I guess you prefer to hand legitimacy over to mob-demanded tyranny?

So much for 'liberty' for you.  Enjoy your chains.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 03:05:32 pm by INVAR »
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Offline Eowyn

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #138 on: September 16, 2016, 03:11:52 pm »
I disagree with you premise n that the only reason to vote is to approve someone, or to advance a movement. Yes, those are factors, but not the only ones. Sometimes the vote is used  just for practical reasons.  Sometimes is just a defensive action, or to voice strong disapproval of another candidate.   So yes, I wish to withhold approval of Trump, but maybe my need to express my disapproval of Hillary is even stronger and overcomes that. 

Yes, I have a major problem with people who's bought into the cult of personality of Trump to the point the twist themselves into supporting his socialist paid maternity leave nonsense.  But I don't have  a problem with someone doing what that Mark Levin is doing, which is to express disagreement with Trump on all his wrongheaded proposals, yet still be willing to make use of his vote in a way that to him best accomplishes the goal of denying Hillary the presidency.

Great posting!  I completely agree!

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #139 on: September 16, 2016, 03:15:30 pm »
I don't like him, but as someone else put it, given a (realistic) choice between a crap sandwich and a mouthful of strychnine, I'll take a bite of that sandwich.


The utter madness in this is that there's a nice kosher deli right around the corner.

Online goatprairie

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #140 on: September 16, 2016, 03:24:01 pm »
His opponent doesn't factor into anything.
My vote is my endorsement. That is all it can ever be.
Trump is not worthy of the office, or of Conservatism's approval.

To extrapolate your position, if Conservatives thought as you do, Trump would not only be elected, but elected with a massive mandate - That would be Conservatism mandating (demanding approvingly) his liberalism. That doesn't make sense, does it?

That is precisely the thinking that has left us with an overwhelming majority of liberal Republicans not only in leadership, but in the entirety of the Republican machine (to include House and Senate). At what point do we admit that the party platform means nothing at all? How does one advance that platform, when the party itself does not believe in it? What good are the numbers if it won't stand for the very things which we purport to stand and associate for?

That is the problem with lesser evil. That is why your vote, in the aggregate, can only be approval. As long as people continue to endorse RINOs rather than Conservatism, RINOs are what will be produced. If you are willing to vote them in, what right is there to complain when they do what they will inevitably do?
I can agree with many of your sentiments, but the facts are elections very often come down to voting for the least worst candidate. It would be great if we were always presented with an excellent choice to vote for, but that is rarely the case.
I'll admit Trump is the worst of all possible Pubbie candidates.  And although he's slightly better than Hillary, he's still an awful choice. I still don't know if I can pull the lever for him.
But I am concerned about Clinton being elected.....even though I don't think, like many Trumpsters, that  we won't survive is she is elected.
Nevertheless, voting for Trump to prevent Hillary is not a badge of shame. It's just that it will be harder to get the stink out of your clothes after leaving the polls than it was for other not great Pubbie candidates.

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #141 on: September 16, 2016, 03:24:05 pm »
The utter madness in this is that there's a nice kosher deli right around the corner.

I simply cannot understand why anyone would refuse to look at the entire range of options. It makes NO sense to me whatever!
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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #142 on: September 16, 2016, 03:26:34 pm »
I can agree with many of your sentiments, but the facts are elections very often come down to voting for the least worst candidate.

They come down to that because we have long been conditioned to accept that!  I will no longer be a victim of that!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #143 on: September 16, 2016, 03:29:13 pm »
So I guess you prefer to hand legitimacy over to mob-demanded tyranny?

What are you talking about?  The reality is that either Hillary or Trump is going to be elected by voters, and my objecting to that doesn't affect it's "legitimacy" one way or the other.  So unless you're forming a revolutionary army to seize the government by force, I have no idea what you are saying should be done about that eventuality.

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #144 on: September 16, 2016, 03:29:58 pm »
They come down to that because we have long been conditioned to accept that!  I will no longer be a victim of that!

You are going to be a "victim" of that even if you chose to abstain, because other people who don't abstain are going to choose the next President.

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #145 on: September 16, 2016, 03:31:40 pm »
I simply cannot understand why anyone would refuse to look at the entire range of options. It makes NO sense to me whatever!

Because if asked to call "head or tails", those other options amount to calling "edge".  They're not going to happen.  Either the Democrat nominee or the GOP nominee will be the next President whether any of us like that or not. 

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #146 on: September 16, 2016, 03:33:05 pm »
You are going to be a "victim" of that even if you chose to abstain, because other people who don't abstain are going to choose the next President.

Who said anything about abstaining?  I will consider the FULL range of my options and cast my vote for the person who comes closest to my line of thinking! 

At this point Donald J. Trump and Hillary Rodham Clinton have been eliminated! Still looking at the other options.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #147 on: September 16, 2016, 03:34:26 pm »
Because if asked to call "head or tails", those other options amount to calling "edge".  They're not going to happen.  Either the Democrat nominee or the GOP nominee will be the next President whether any of us like that or not.

WHY are they "not going to happen"?  Because YOU say so? Or is it because YOU have been conditioned to accept that stupid line of thinking?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #148 on: September 16, 2016, 03:38:48 pm »
True, and if Trump wins on election night, the only true "joy" in it would be watching the rending of clothes on the left.  Of course, the flip side would be watching the freak-out of TOS-type Trump fanatics freaking out if he loses.  There's a bit of schadenfreude there as well, even though I'm voting for the guy as well.
Yes, it would be delicious to see and hear the moaning and groaning on the left if Hillary goes down. Only slightly more worse than the idea that Trump is the president.
Nevertheless, the defeat of Hillary would mean a number of good things: (1) socialism is not entirely the leading trend in politics (2) a fem-nazi  will have been defeated (3) appealing to the fact of your (female) genitalia does not automatically grant you high office (4) one rare positive aspect of Trump's campaign (love of your country) is still regnant for the majority of Americans.
No doubt, Trump's election would signal a lot of negative things as well including the destruction of the conservative movement in the country. That is what I am most worried about with a Trump election.  If the trend among average Pubbies is away from constitutional conservatism and towards a Trump-style populism/nationalism, this country is screwed.

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #149 on: September 16, 2016, 03:46:25 pm »
WHY are they "not going to happen"?  Because YOU say so? Or is it because YOU have been conditioned to accept that stupid line of thinking?

No, because that's what the numbers that any sane person can recognize say.  If you believe that someone other than the GOP or Democrat nominee has a reasonable possibility of being elected President in 2016, I think that's delusional.