Author Topic: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers  (Read 25814 times)

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Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #175 on: September 16, 2016, 06:30:50 pm »
Your vote lends legitimacy to whatever you empower.

So abstention is the moral course?  I'd say Burke's aphorism applies to this situation:  "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".  "Doing nothing", in my opinion, is a Pontius Pilate routine that doesn't absolve someone from the consequences of not acting.

Again, if you see absolutely no difference between the two of them, then fine.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #176 on: September 16, 2016, 06:48:46 pm »
I am a reluctant Trumper,  but as it gets closer to the election,  I am becoming less reluctant about him. 



Making Hillary and the Media look like fools in his PR stunt today has gone a long way toward's convincing myself that he's pretty shrewd  and he posses the right attitude about how to deal with enemies. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline INVAR

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #177 on: September 16, 2016, 06:59:43 pm »
So abstention is the moral course? 

I'm not abstaining.

I'm choosing to support someone not part of the D.C. oligarchy from a party that has not yet been totally corrupted.


I'd say Burke's aphorism applies to this situation:  "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".  "Doing nothing", in my opinion, is a Pontius Pilate routine that doesn't absolve someone from the consequences of not acting.

I'm doing plenty and acting according to my conscience.  I'm simply not participating in false choices being shoved at me as the only choices I have. 

I'm employing choices that are outside the box you have imprisoned yourself in, and other choices that are outside the realm of corrupted politics.

Again, if you see absolutely no difference between the two of them, then fine.

I'm convinced Trump and his populist fascism is a greater clear and present danger to my liberty than what Hillary poses in the short term.

The death threats from Trump supporters created that realization and Trumps own words and actions simply give those threats grave concern.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline unknown

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #178 on: September 16, 2016, 07:07:56 pm »
I am a reluctant Trumper,  but as it gets closer to the election,  I am becoming less reluctant about him. 



Making Hillary and the Media look like fools in his PR stunt today has gone a long way toward's convincing myself that he's pretty shrewd  and he posses the right attitude about how to deal with enemies.

 :thumbsup2:

Included in his enemies would be international, congress, and media.


I won't be here after the election and vote.

If Hillary wins - I will be busy, BLOAT! (It won't be long before she won't let you buy.)

If Trump wins, I won't be here to GLOAT. (I don't want to hang around while everyone looks at every speck in his eye.)

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #179 on: September 16, 2016, 07:24:58 pm »
Welp, conservatism as defined by conservative media has been trending populist for a long time now.
"Conservative" media have been mislabeling themselves, then, to suck in more marginal liberals. They have misdefined "conservative" as well, in fact, the media hyphenated it. paleo-neo-so-crunchy- and it's all a con.
That was to divide people with conservative leanings and push them to decide some of their principles could be discarded and they'd still be 'conservative'. So if you are for killing babies in the womb, chasing Jesus out of the Park, and keeping welfare, it's all okay if you back another military exercise in 'nation building', you still get your "Conservative ticket' punched and can still eat at the table with the cool kids because, well, some guy on the radio said so.
It's all about the money with the media, and to me, this election has shown whose tongues are for sale to wag where and whose aren't. Sadly, the latter group are few in number, but sometimes you have to remove a lot of slag to get to the little bit of gold underneath.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #180 on: September 16, 2016, 08:33:50 pm »
Doing the right thing is doing what your convictions tell you to do.

That's a circular non-answer.

Quote
Nope! But enough have and the only one of them who actually moved the ball toward less government was Ronald Wilson Reagan.   I'm looking for the second.

So am I.  I just don't want things to be so far gone structurally that even the second coming of Reagan couldn't help.  And I am very worried that the Democrats will be able to solidify their agenda through the Supreme Court and immigration to the point where it will be absolutely irreversible.

Online Bigun

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #181 on: September 16, 2016, 08:46:42 pm »
That's a circular non-answer.

I don't think so.

Quote
So am I.  I just don't want things to be so far gone structurally that even the second coming of Reagan couldn't help.  And I am very worried that the Democrats will be able to solidify their agenda through the Supreme Court and immigration to the point where it will be absolutely irreversible.

And I don't think Trump will stop, or even slow down any of that! After all he IS a democrat himself! Endorsing liberalism with your vote only begets MORE liberalism.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 08:49:11 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #182 on: September 16, 2016, 09:00:20 pm »
I'm not abstaining.  I'm choosing to support someone not part of the D.C. oligarchy from a party that has not yet been totally corrupted.

Well, you can vote for anyone you'd like. But realistically, there are only two candidate who have a shot at winning this election.  The most effective way to prevent either of them from winning the Presidency is to vote for the other.  You are choosing not to vote for either of those two candidate, and are instead choosing to vote for someone who has no realistic chance at winning.

So yes, you are technically not abstaining from the election.  But you are refusing to choose between the only two candidates with a chance of winning.

Honest question here.  If it was Trump versus someone even worse than Hillary -- a Chavez, Al-Baghdadi, Stalin, Castro, etc.., and those were the only two candidates with a realistic shot at winning, would you still vote 3rd party?

I'm asking because i'm trying to figure out how much of your position is "they're not much different" versus "I wouldn't vote for anyone like Trump under any circumstances.".

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #183 on: September 16, 2016, 09:01:59 pm »
I don't think so.

And I don't think Trump will stop, or even slow down any of that! After all he IS a democrat himself! Endorsing liberalism with your vote only begets MORE liberalism.

I don't think the "endorsement" issue matters one bit.  All that matters is who wins.

I see a difference between a guy who supports some left-wing social programs, and someone who will certainly move the Court to the left, continue the corruption of the military, and massively add to the regulatory burden on business.  The former can be repealed.  But the Court, etc....that stuff can't be undone.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #184 on: September 16, 2016, 09:29:55 pm »
Well, you can vote for anyone you'd like. But realistically, there are only two candidate who have a shot at winning this election.  The most effective way to prevent either of them from winning the Presidency is to vote for the other.  You are choosing not to vote for either of those two candidate, and are instead choosing to vote for someone who has no realistic chance at winning.

So yes, you are technically not abstaining from the election.  But you are refusing to choose between the only two candidates with a chance of winning.

Honest question here.  If it was Trump versus someone even worse than Hillary -- a Chavez, Al-Baghdadi, Stalin, Castro, etc.., and those were the only two candidates with a realistic shot at winning, would you still vote 3rd party?

I'm asking because i'm trying to figure out how much of your position is "they're not much different" versus "I wouldn't vote for anyone like Trump under any circumstances.".


Best way to answer your question is relaying a conversation and discussion I had with several Christian pastors of different denominations regarding "purity of the faith".  In their estimation, those of us who adhere to strict biblical interpretations regarding Islam and other non-biblical religions and Homosexuality/fornication/adultery were 'harming' the church because we refuse to 'smell reality' and "adapt" to the changing times so as to 'save the church' from it's declining growth in America.

To them, embracing sin and apostasy is permissible because biblical principles are no longer popular, and those who refuse to embrace things like Chrislam and Homosexual marriage are harming the faith.  If we do not embrace Islam, we are Islamophobes, and if we refuse to endorse and accept homosexual behavior, we are homophobes.  "Standing on the bible is outdated" and unrealistic they assured me.  Tenets of the faith are apparently as disposable as Conservative principles when "prudence" is claimed.

So when I read your reply - in my mind it sounds like this to me:

'Well, you can worship how you like.  But realistically, you must accept gays and Muslims if you want a shot at saving or growing the church.  By refusing to accept what is socially and morally acceptable today is choosing to operate a congregation with no realistic chance of growing.

There are worse sins than those you point out - racism and bigotry being the worst.  They shame the Name of Christ and belittle the church'.

You see Maj., Conservatism to someone like me is a guiding set of immutable principles that govern everything in terms of how I look at this world.  It's just another extension of my biblical faith.  So to ask me whether or not I would choose murder or choose adultery as a better choice, my answer is neither is a better choice.  The death penalty form The Lord is applied no matter which of those Laws I break and then justify as acceptable.  Repentance is required, and efforts to 'go and sin no more' are expected.  Justifying sin is not repentance.

I have repented of choosing persons of wicked character simply because everyone insists that the other guy is worse.  Yes, we are all flawed -  but I refuse to support someone whose character is marked by justified wicked behavior without a shred of humility.

It's time to do what is right, even if I am the only one left doing it and everyone else declares me evil.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #185 on: September 16, 2016, 09:51:02 pm »

It's time to do what is right, even if I am the only one left doing it and everyone else declares me evil.
You will not be alone. I'll stand with you, for as long as I can stand.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #186 on: September 16, 2016, 10:42:49 pm »
Third party vote is deluded among Johnson, Stein, and Constitution Party.

It will have 0 impact this election.

If third party voters rallied behind one person, it might have an impact.
You make a decent point—and if you want to talk about one of the worst things that could have happened for a third party movement, Evan McMullin's little stunt was one of them.

Before McMullin entered the race there were polls in Utah showing Trump, Clinton and Johnson neck-and-neck there in the 20s (for the life of me, I can't find that poll now). Enter McMullin and he siphons off about 9%, dropping Johnson to 12% and putting Trump firmly into the lead. In other words, McMullin is doing exactly the opposite of what he was supposed to be doing, by further splitting the vote among people that would be voting third party and ensuring the two big parties maintain their hegemony.

Now, McMullin has zero chance of even making enough ballots to gain a majority even if he swept every state where people could vote for him, and his threat to sue his way onto the ballots was not only laughable but quite Trump-like. Yet he was able to play spoiler in crucial states that could have made a difference and thrown the election to the House.

McMullin needs to drop out.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 10:46:35 pm by jmyrlefuller »
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #187 on: September 17, 2016, 12:20:00 am »
Best way to answer your question is relaying a conversation and discussion I had with several Christian pastors of different denominations regarding "purity of the faith". 

[...]

It's time to do what is right, even if I am the only one left doing it and everyone else declares me evil.

Absolutely excellent.
 888high58888

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #188 on: September 17, 2016, 04:12:45 am »
As always, someone ALWAYS pops up to make excuses for empowering evil. They can lie to themselves that they aren't. But anyone with any remaining morality in their body can see clearly that they are.

There is a difference between supporting a less than perfect candidate and an outright, documented liberal. Whether Trumps voters wish it so or not.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 04:13:13 am by Norm Lenhart »

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #189 on: September 17, 2016, 05:26:13 am »

"In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes." - Judges 17:6 [/i]


Correctamundo.  Jump ahead to Judges 19 to see how it turned out.
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Offline kartographer

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #190 on: September 17, 2016, 06:04:16 am »
Begs the question of exactly what the right thing is, though, doesn't it?

Has everyone you've ever voted for won?

Charley Waite: "Well you may not know this, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dying."

Offline kartographer

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #191 on: September 17, 2016, 06:07:33 am »
You will not be alone. I'll stand with you, for as long as I can stand.



And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)
Charley Waite: "Well you may not know this, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dying."

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #192 on: September 17, 2016, 06:34:27 am »


And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)
Thanks, Kart! great quote, and timely.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #193 on: September 18, 2016, 11:51:59 pm »
Why would prog media hate trump?

He has been them all his life. And his latest "entitlement" Ala' "Child care"... spending is FDR revisited on steroids.

Because Trump is an interloper.  And because the Queen is annointed.  And because the Teabaggers and other Republicans support him, at least against their girl.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #194 on: September 19, 2016, 02:48:22 am »
Because Trump is an interloper.  And because the Queen is annointed.  And because the Teabaggers and other Republicans support him, at least against their girl.
Interesting choice of term there. None of the TEA party people I know are supporting him, or not with any degree of enthusiasm--just some votes against Cankles.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online roamer_1

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #195 on: September 19, 2016, 03:16:16 am »
None of the TEA party people I know are supporting him

YEP.

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #196 on: September 25, 2016, 02:57:40 am »
Interesting choice of term there. None of the TEA party people I know are supporting him, or not with any degree of enthusiasm--just some votes against Cankles.

Who are they supporting?

It's been awhile since I've been with a Tea Party group, so I can't claim to know the pulse.  But if they're supporting Johnson and his pot buzz, they're being foolish.

The choice on the ballot is one of six or seven, depending on your state; but realistically only one of two is going to win this election.

And the prospect of the brain-damaged, Parkinson's-demented, lifelong Alinskyite, proven-incompetent, candidate winning is just too great a fear to chance.

That's all I have to say on it.  You either get it or you don't.  I can't sing the praises of God the Donald because I'm not a cultist and I don't think he HAS many virtues.

But the alternative is worse.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #197 on: September 25, 2016, 03:00:32 am »
And the prospect of the brain-damaged, Parkinson's-demented, lifelong Alinskyite, proven-incompetent, candidate winning is just too great a fear to chance.


So it's the parkinsons then...

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #198 on: September 25, 2016, 04:15:18 am »
Who are they supporting?

It's been awhile since I've been with a Tea Party group, so I can't claim to know the pulse.  But if they're supporting Johnson and his pot buzz, they're being foolish.

The choice on the ballot is one of six or seven, depending on your state; but realistically only one of two is going to win this election.

And the prospect of the brain-damaged, Parkinson's-demented, lifelong Alinskyite, proven-incompetent, candidate winning is just too great a fear to chance.

That's all I have to say on it.  You either get it or you don't.  I can't sing the praises of God the Donald because I'm not a cultist and I don't think he HAS many virtues.

But the alternative is worse.
Castle is a big one, some for Johnson because they think Libertarian just means less government interference, which is correct to a point, but comes with baggage under that brand. Some are just going to vote down ticket.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers
« Reply #199 on: September 25, 2016, 04:19:39 am »
So it's the parkinsons then...
Must be. Alinskyite is not a defining characteristic. Proven incompetent is just a question of venue, and "Liberal" really isn't so definitive, either. Neither is credible (they lie). Must be the Parkinsons, although that might be a term-limiting factor. I don't know enough about Kaine, because the top-of-the-ticket was so bad, I never looked.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis