Never-Trumpers vs. Reluctant Trumpers

[jmyrlefuller]

For me, for this election, the charm of voting for a third party is to make a protest against the two mainstream parties.  Either the GOP party will listen, or those of us who care will find a home elsewhere. Given our choices this election, making that change has to start now.  A viable third party is not impossible.  Will it take years.  Maybe not.  When things get bad, change happens quickly.  I'd like it to be the right kind of change.  Enough third party voters this election could be a catalyst.

One can hope.

If this election doesn't convince people to start looking outside the two parties, then I don't know if anything will.

[Smokin Joe]

One can hope.

If this election doesn't convince people to start looking outside the two parties, then I don't know if anything will.

For starters, the Major parties have presented voters with the false dichotomy of a "two party system" for so long, people don't even think to vote "third" party. I'd bet a lot of them have never heard of the Whigs.

Many more have been convinced to vote for one of the big two because they are the big two and their vote would be allegedly wasted otherwise. How much the American Political landscape would change can only be speculated, should the voters just vote for the person they thought best, regardless of affiliation.

There is that contingent who would vote straight party ticket, regardless of who was on the ballot, whichever party they support, without consideration of the candidate.(the 'go, team, go!', mentality).

There are over 70 different parties in the US, most of which are barely footnotes, but a few which could rise to prominence. The Libertarian Party (largest, most well known, third party, based on something between Liberty and libertine, imho), the Green Party (totalitarian socialism with an ecological bent), the Constitution Party (with the US Constitution as the basis for its platform), and others. (look down the right sidebar here for a list of 'third' parties websites, and these are not all of them: https://amthirdpartyreport.com/ )

[Smokin Joe]

For me, for this election, the charm of voting for a third party is to make a protest against the two mainstream parties.  Either the GOP party will listen, or those of us who care will find a home elsewhere. Given our choices this election, making that change has to start now.  A viable third party is not impossible.  Will it take years.  Maybe not.  When things get bad, change happens quickly.  I'd like it to be the right kind of change.  Enough third party voters this election could be a catalyst.

The point you hit upon is that when the time comes, yes, change can happen very quickly. If the most desirable party, in terms of policy, is not ready to step into the void, some other group will. The Communists have been in the starting blocks for decades...THose of us who desire a return to a Constitutional Republic had better be ready to step up.

[libertybele]

One can hope.

If this election doesn't convince people to start looking outside the two parties, then I don't know if anything will.

The demise of our country was started a long time ago.  We are now faced with two liberals who will continue us down a path of destruction, just in a different way. A third party victory is nearly impossible with the way our electoral process is set up; both candidates would have to be denied the majority vote.  To the best of my knowledge only Johnson is on the ballot in all 50 states; which is huge accomplishment in itself for a 3rd party candidate. I don't see him as any better. It isn't just a matter of a 3rd party candidate getting in; it's a matter of seating a candidate that will lead us towards restoration.  That's not going to happen with this election.  IMHO we've got some extremely rough times ahead of us; not days or months but years, and that's probably an understatement.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

One can hope.

If this election doesn't convince people to start looking outside the two parties, then I don't know if anything will.

Third party vote is deluded among Johnson, Stein, and Constitution Party.

It will have 0 impact this election.

If third party voters rallied behind one person, it might have an impact.

[roamer_1]

Third party vote is deluded among Johnson, Stein, and Constitution Party.

Not as deluded as voting for Trump or Clinton.

[AllThatJazzZ]

From Limbaugh

We can argue logical fallacies all day long, but I have only one option if I want my vote to contribute to Clinton’s defeat, and that is to vote for Trump.

Here's where we NeverTrumpers differ from reluctants, Trumpsters and any other group inclined to cast a vote for Trump. We're concerned for the country's defeat and believe casting a vote for either of the top two candidates will bring that to pass. We don't like it, but we damn sure don't have to participate in it.

[Truthsearcher]

I'm still undecided, my reason for still considering voting for him is that I want to see the media who worship Hillary get kicked in the nuts.  Even if Trump ends up being as bad as Hillary, the schadenfreude from watching their sad faces  might be worth it.

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Not as deluded as voting for Trump or Clinton.

I'm sorry I meant diluted.

3rd party votes will be split among Johnson, Stein and the Constitution Party.

[Fantom]

Only two choices:

The red pill.
Or the blue pill.

You chose one of the two!

It is not binary.

If I refuse to choose the "Red "Pill I am am "choosing the Blue pill... according to some. And vice a versa.

Some of us Americans.. real conservatives, are not "choosing"..... either Poisson pill.

[Eowyn]

I'm still undecided, my reason for still considering voting for him is that I want to see the media who worship Hillary get kicked in the nuts.  Even if Trump ends up being as bad as Hillary, the schadenfreude from watching their sad faces  might be worth it.

I was telling my husband today that seeing the media have a epic breakdown on live TV come election night is reason enough to vote for Trump.

[Fantom]

I was telling my husband today that seeing the media have a epic breakdown on live TV come election night is reason enough to vote for Trump.

Why would prog media hate trump?

He has been them all his life. And his latest "entitlement" Ala' "Child care"... spending is FDR revisited on steroids.

[Truthsearcher]

Why would prog media hate trump?

He has been them all his life. And his latest "entitlement" Ala' "Child care"... spending is FDR revisited on steroids.

The media have always been stupid, they build up every Republican candidate as the “racist/sexist/homophobic/islamophobic" bogeyman,  and every Dem candidate as the white knight hero, it starts as propaganda but they always quickly buy into their own propaganda and believes it.

[Fantom]

Exactly. 

I do personally believe that it will be worse in the long run if Trump wins.  Hillary is a nightmare, but blame Trump primary voters for opening that door.  Trump will pull the plug of conservative life support within the Republican Party, if he hasn't already.  Republicans will be unable to fight him.  Hillary they MIGHT fight.    So while I will never vote for Hillary, on election night I will be hoping she wins.  Oh how I hate to even type that.  It's just the idea of a President Trump is even worse, imo.

There is hardly an electron betwixt us.

I am 55 years old.. maybe a trump election ..lower taxes/regulation I.E. any Republican winning.  Would make me having a real chance at a retirement in the next 10-15 years..... socialist policies trump/mcconnel enacts be damned

Putting that aside. 

Four more years of a Hillary/obama/prog may be just a better thing. In the long run.... heck, even in the short term.

[Norm Lenhart]

It is not binary.

If I refuse to choose the "Red "Pill I am am "choosing the Blue pill... according to some. And vice a versa.

Some of us Americans.. real conservatives, are not "choosing"..... either Poisson pill.

It's amazing how every year, liberal 'right wingers' somehow find new and exciting reasons to not vote for any conservative candidate. Rather doing their jobs as Americans and voting according to their beliefs, they default to high school tribalism and vote based on who they thing their neighbors/online 'friends' will vote for so they can sit at the cool kids lunch table.

Had any of these unprincipled voters actually in the past, cast their vote for conservative candidates, we would not have a house and senate filled with Democrats with an "R' velcroed on their sleeves. We would not have a lifetime liberal topping the GOP ticket. We would not have the mess we do today.

Instead, thanks to their inability to find their spines, we do have the situation we do. There is exactly Z E R O point posting to right wing websites and walking around telling your friends and neighbors how conservative your ..ahem...values are, when you ignore them on the only day of the election cycle it actually matters.

One either believes in a thing enough to stand behind it when it matters, or one does not and no blizzard of special snowflake excuse-making will EVER change that set in stone fact. Vote for liberals and you ARE a liberal folks. Just admit what your voting proves you to be and conservatives will get on with fixing the mess your voting made.

[Fantom]

 

It's amazing how every year, liberal 'right wingers' somehow find new and exciting reasons to not vote for any conservative candidate. Rather doing their jobs as Americans and voting according to their beliefs, they default to high school tribalism and vote based on who they thing their neighbors/online 'friends' will vote for so they can sit at the cool kids lunch table.

Had any of these unprincipled voters actually in the past, cast their vote for conservative candidates, we would not have a house and senate filled with Democrats with an "R' velcroed on their sleeves. We would not have a lifetime liberal topping the GOP ticket. We would not have the mess we do today.

Instead, thanks to their inability to find their spines, we do have the situation we do. There is exactly Z E R O point posting to right wing websites and walking around telling your friends and neighbors how conservative your ..ahem...values are, when you ignore them on the only day of the election cycle it actually matters.

One either believes in a thing enough to stand behind it when it matters, or one does not and no blizzard of special snowflake excuse-making will EVER change that set in stone fact. Vote for liberals and you ARE a liberal folks. Just admit what your voting proves you to be and conservatives will get on with fixing the mess your voting made.

 

A bit more wordy.... But yes. 

[Truthsearcher]

This is the first time where the Republicans have offered them the real deal.  We finally fulfilled their caricature and made it true.

The left is doing the same thing, mind you.  That is, turning caricature into reality...but that doesn't make the Republicans less guilty.  Billionaire Trump and all of his race and class baiting and crony capitalism and bully tactics have tainted the reputation of the Republican Party more completely than all the history of media and leftist false charges could ever do.  For now, they own it.  Before they could stand on principle and say "false charge."  No longer.

Well, I think Trump's "racism" is completely imaginary on their part, but then again the media has cried wolf on every Republican candidate so many times that none of their "this guy is the next Hitler" routine is being taken seriously anymore.    I honestly loathe them more than I loathe Hillary, because Hillary and her ilk have been empowered and protected by them for decades. We might not deserve a Trump presidency, but they certainly do.

[Norm Lenhart]

LOL.  You've got some great lines in there.

Been saying it for a decade or so. I got them memorized.

Unfortunately regardless of how many times facts and history show every word of it to be true, very few listen.

[Norm Lenhart]

 

A bit more wordy.... But yes. 

Well, I was a writer/journo by trade...can't help it ;)

[Smokin Joe]

It's amazing how every year, liberal 'right wingers' somehow find new and exciting reasons to not vote for any conservative candidate. Rather doing their jobs as Americans and voting according to their beliefs, they default to high school tribalism and vote based on who they thing their neighbors/online 'friends' will vote for so they can sit at the cool kids lunch table.

Had any of these unprincipled voters actually in the past, cast their vote for conservative candidates, we would not have a house and senate filled with Democrats with an "R' velcroed on their sleeves. We would not have a lifetime liberal topping the GOP ticket. We would not have the mess we do today.

Instead, thanks to their inability to find their spines, we do have the situation we do. There is exactly Z E R O point posting to right wing websites and walking around telling your friends and neighbors how conservative your ..ahem...values are, when you ignore them on the only day of the election cycle it actually matters.

One either believes in a thing enough to stand behind it when it matters, or one does not and no blizzard of special snowflake excuse-making will EVER change that set in stone fact. Vote for liberals and you ARE a liberal folks. Just admit what your voting proves you to be and conservatives will get on with fixing the mess your voting made.

Well Put!

[Norm Lenhart]

Well Put!

It's just the factual truth. If any Trumper wants to explain how electing a liberal does not empower liberalism, I am willing to openly debate it. It would be like saying murdering someone does not make you a murderer, that raping someone does not make you a rapist, or robbing someone does not make you a thief.

Simple math there. Voting for liberal candidates makes one a liberal regardless of which of the many LGBTQUSTUVWXYZ'ish political genders they call themselves. Voting for liberal candidates makes one a liberal regardless of which demon du' jour the DNC runs opposing them. Voting for a liberal under the GOP banner is an intentional attempt to further liberalize the political right.

[Bigun]

It's just the factual truth. If any Trumper wants to explain how electing a liberal does not empower liberalism, I am willing to openly debate it. It would be like saying murdering someone does not make you a murderer, that raping someone does not make you a rapist, or robbing someone does not make you a thief.

Simple math there. Voting for liberal candidates makes one a liberal regardless of which of the many LGBTQUSTUVWXYZ'ish political genders they call themselves. Voting for liberal candidates makes one a liberal regardless of which demon du' jour the DNC runs opposing them. Voting for a liberal under the GOP banner is an intentional attempt to further liberalize the political right.

Exactly! And there is NO doubt about it!  It's why we are where we are!

[roamer_1]

It's amazing how every year, liberal 'right wingers' somehow find new and exciting reasons to not vote for any conservative candidate. Rather doing their jobs as Americans and voting according to their beliefs, they default to high school tribalism and vote based on who they thing their neighbors/online 'friends' will vote for so they can sit at the cool kids lunch table.

Had any of these unprincipled voters actually in the past, cast their vote for conservative candidates, we would not have a house and senate filled with Democrats with an "R' velcroed on their sleeves. We would not have a lifetime liberal topping the GOP ticket. We would not have the mess we do today.

Instead, thanks to their inability to find their spines, we do have the situation we do. There is exactly Z E R O point posting to right wing websites and walking around telling your friends and neighbors how conservative your ..ahem...values are, when you ignore them on the only day of the election cycle it actually matters.

One either believes in a thing enough to stand behind it when it matters, or one does not and no blizzard of special snowflake excuse-making will EVER change that set in stone fact. Vote for liberals and you ARE a liberal folks. Just admit what your voting proves you to be and conservatives will get on with fixing the mess your voting made.

ZACKLY.
 

[Truthsearcher]

It's just the factual truth. If any Trumper wants to explain how electing a liberal does not empower liberalism, I am willing to openly debate it. It would be like saying murdering someone does not make you a murderer, that raping someone does not make you a rapist, or robbing someone does not make you a thief.

Simple math there. Voting for liberal candidates makes one a liberal regardless of which of the many LGBTQUSTUVWXYZ'ish political genders they call themselves. Voting for liberal candidates makes one a liberal regardless of which demon du' jour the DNC runs opposing them. Voting for a liberal under the GOP banner is an intentional attempt to further liberalize the political right.

I am not a Trumper, as I said I'm undecided at this point, but I am actually interested in discussing this.

For me the "line in the sand" stuff just doesn't work, because life is usually not about lines but about where you are on the slope. Surely there are people who even you would consider significantly enough worse than Trump that you'd act to ensure their defeat?  Let's say the moral equivalent of Stalin or Mao or Robespierre.   Are you saying that Trump is so bad there is not a conceivable person worse enough than him that you'd vote for him?  If you say yes then I'd have to disagree with you, as much as I don't like Trump he's nowhere near "the worst person who ever lived".  And really, the "we shouldn't vote for the lesser of two evils instead of voting for good" doesn't really work for me either.  Because to me in any election you're always voting for the lesser of evils, human beings are fallen and sinful, none of them are angels, even Reagan made plenty of mistakes.  Anyone who thinks that the person he/she is voting for is an angel is deluded.

So assuming you agree with me that the choice is always between the less of evils, and that there are people so bad that if they were running you'd vote for Trump against them. The only question is whether you think Hillary fits into that category, and if someone makes a different judgement call it's just that, a different judgement call.

[roamer_1]

Surely there are people who even you would consider significantly enough worse than Trump that you'd act to ensure their defeat?

His opponent doesn't factor into anything.
My vote is my endorsement. That is all it can ever be.
Trump is not worthy of the office, or of Conservatism's approval.

To extrapolate your position, if Conservatives thought as you do, Trump would not only be elected, but elected with a massive mandate - That would be Conservatism mandating (demanding approvingly) his liberalism. That doesn't make sense, does it?

And really, the "we shouldn't vote for the lesser of two evils instead of voting for good" doesn't really work for me either.  Because to me in any election you're always voting for the lesser of evils, human beings are fallen and sinful, none of them are angels, even Reagan made plenty of mistakes.  Anyone who thinks that the person he/she is voting for is an angel is deluded.

That is precisely the thinking that has left us with an overwhelming majority of liberal Republicans not only in leadership, but in the entirety of the Republican machine (to include House and Senate). At what point do we admit that the party platform means nothing at all? How does one advance that platform, when the party itself does not believe in it? What good are the numbers if it won't stand for the very things which we purport to stand and associate for?

That is the problem with lesser evil. That is why your vote, in the aggregate, can only be approval. As long as people continue to endorse RINOs rather than Conservatism, RINOs are what will be produced. If you are willing to vote them in, what right is there to complain when they do what they will inevitably do?