Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election

[Silver Pines]

RIV isn't passive-aggressive.  Her anger bleeds out of every post.  She thinks you are wrong.  She thinks you are too dumb to see what she sees.  She think she is right and she is frustrated that she keeps explaining things to us, and keeps getting mocked for her efforts.

Does this sound familiar to you Catherine?  You know anybody else like this? 

I think you are an exceptionally talented writer.  You express complex thoughts in easy to understand and well written posts.  TBR is lucky to have writers like yourself who take time out of their busy schedule to offer their insights and opinion.

You see what I just did there?  I paid you a sincere compliment and now I can tell you things you don't want to hear and I suspect you will actually listen and weigh what I have to say.

You have RIV pegged all wrong...Obstinate...Condescending...Arrogant.  Sure.  Those traits would be viewed as admirable if they were in defense of an opinion you agreed with.  She is all these thing as are most humans.  As am I.  As is anyone who thinks they can psychoanalyze someone based on a few curt and defensive political posts. 

RIV has a family and friends who she wants to live in a better America.  She has strong opinions that she wants to share.  How do I know this?  I don't really, I'm assuming it because I don't think she is really that different than me, but I do base that on a couple years of arguing with her.

I said some nice things about RIV last week and I know she saw it.  I didn't expect that her style of attack would change, and only she knows if she tempered her anger or not, but we have said the foulest, nastiest, shameful things to people who mostly agree America is broken...and only disagree on how to fix it.

I call on you Catherine...if you truly wanted to discuss and reach an understanding, would you have posted the same message to RIV you posted?

Let us clean up this forum and work towards a civility and discourse on the issues that TOS can only remember from 20 years ago.

You do not have to be the bigger person.  There is no reason that can force you to try and understand the people who have spewed unforgivable bile...except you can.

@Once-Ler, I'm not always the bigger person.  Sometimes, yes...other times, no. That's just the hard reality of who I am, I suppose.  My post was based on what I have seen from @Right_in_Virginia directed to me.  It had nothing to do with anything she might have posted to you, or vice versa.  I'll stand by it. 

Am I here to disrupt or to lower the level of discourse on the forum?  No, and I don't believe that could be said of me in general.  At least I hope not.

Still, there are those times, I believe, when the fertilizer being shoveled needs to be addressed for what it is. 

[Smokin Joe]

They've all become what they hated at FR.  Fascinating to say the least.

We haven't called for the banning of all Trump supporters. We haven't made threats to hunt any Trump supporters down. DC, your characterization is dishonest at best.

[Silver Pines]

You, I like.  But I do not think Catherine deserved that dressing down.  I thought Catherine was too nice.  I would have eliminated the word "passive."  Call it perspective, but the other person you are talking about is vicious.  IMO.  So if Catherine is in the doghouse, I'll go there with her.    IMO you are trying to do a nice thing in the area of feelings, but to do so you must ignore facts.  Credit for intentions, demerit for content.

I don't mean just this thread.  She fights with everyone.

Now I will go back to ignoring those who want to fight.  I just wanted to defend @CatherineofAragon .

@RAT Patrol

Thank you, friend.   

[Longmire]

The fact is he very much favors an expansion of the federal government and on many occasions has made that clear.

@LMAO

Repealing Obamacare seems like a big step in the right direction, as does removing the federal restrictions on health insurance competition.

Reversing Obama's horrible immigration policies will require federal action but it can hardly be called an expansion.

Likewise, ending the incentives for Common Core is federal action but not an expansion.

Finally, limited government thrives when there are conservative justices on the bench. After eight years of Obama appointments there has been a serious shift in the federal courts direction at every level.

[Silver Pines]

Hey, @CatherineofAragon here's what I do not do:  I do not ping my friends and discuss what I think is wrong with you.  I do not ridicule and insult you.   

When I post, it is to you about the subject and substance of your post.  I do not go off on tangents about you as a person.  I think you know I can, and that if I choose to, I will be honest to the point of unforgiving.  I would prefer not to do this with you; so I am asking you to stop this     Try to remember that this forum is not your personal playground.

@Right_in_Virginia

Yes, obviously I've made it that. 

Quite simply, if you want good dialogue, why not just drop the sugarcoated smarmy tone of much of what you post?  Isn't it easier to just be real with people? 

[L9teen]

As well, he wouldn't be doing everything he can, to smear, demean, slander and lie about the true conservatives who are FIGHTING to SAVE America and her "greatness"!!!  He IS the absolute best weapon the Democrats could have ever dreamed of.  And I have no doubt, he IS the Trojan Horse for Hillary.  He's done more to destroy the Republican party, the Conservative movement, the Conservative message and the idea of small, limited government than ANY Democrat could ever dream of.  He's the sum of where our society is, and he's riding that wave in all effort to bring forth the progressive agenda, full circle.

LBJ, FDR and Woodrow Wilson would be SOOOO proud.

[Smokin Joe]

@LMAO

Repealing Obamacare seems like a big step in the right direction, as does removing the federal restrictions on health insurance competition.

Reversing Obama's horrible immigration policies will require federal action but it can hardly be called an expansion.

Likewise, ending the incentives for Common Core is federal action but not an expansion.

Finally, limited government thrives when there are conservative justices on the bench. After eight years of Obama appointments there has been a serious shift in the federal courts direction at every level.

One of the first things Trump said (in Iowa) was that he'd push to increase the Renewable Fuels Mandate, and use the EPA to the fullest extent of the law to enforce it.

As deal-breakers go, that was a two-fer, on the face of it. Not only was he going to push for more alcohol to be blended in fuel stocks (as a number of gallons, the mandate has no regards for percentages) when the blend volume already pushes the blend wall where engines not specifically constructed for ethanol start suffering damage (beyond 10%, and small engines, from generators to chainsaws and outboard motors), but he would be reinforcing the one agency which has done more to shut down industry in America than any other.

He wanted to replace Obamacare with single-payer, and praised Canadian and English health care systems (Canadians still come to the States for critical care, rather than die on a waiting list up north).

Reversing immigration policies will require more and better enforcement. That will take more personnel and increased capabilities, thus more government. I am not objecting to that mission, but I have no illusions that it will make government smaller, either.

Eliminating Federal incentives for common core will be a government neutral policy. The jobs won't go away, they may be reassigned to find another way to meddle. Eliminate the Department, and you will have done something.

As for limited government thriving with conservative justices on the bench, ask Justice Roberts about that. There is no guarantee that any appointees will be conservative, nor that they will stay that way.

[Luis Gonzalez]

@Luis Gonzalez

Trump certainly believes in the bully pulpit but the idea that he favors a general expansion of federal control is false. His proposals to end Obamacare and subsidies for Common Core are two examples. Trump will energetically undo the Obama legacy and appoint conservative justices to the court.

-btw The irony of your rhetoric is that the Hamilton quote you're hiding behind was directed at Thomas Jefferson, one of the founding champions of limited government.

His assertion that law and order will be restored across the nation after his election, a statement he made during hi acceptance speech at the GOP convention, implies a vast Federalization of what have always been State and local powers.

His enthusiastic support for Kelo and the concept of eminent domain are equally liberal in the fact that they elevate the rights of government above the rights of the individual.

He thinks Obamacare is a disaster, but wants to replace it with something more expansive, namely, single-payer health care.

Donald Trump: Obamacare’s going to be repealed and replaced. Obamacare is a disaster if you look at what’s going on with premiums where they’re up 40, 50, 55 percent.

Scott Pelley: How do you fix it?

Donald Trump: There’s many different ways, by the way. Everybody’s got to be covered. This is an un-Republican thing for me to say because a lot of times they say, “No, no, the lower 25 percent that can’t afford private. But–”

Scott Pelley: Universal health care.

Donald Trump: I am going to take care of everybody. I don’t care if it costs me votes or not. Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now.

Scott Pelley: The uninsured person is going to be taken care of. How? How?

Donald Trump: They’re going to be taken care of. I would make a deal with existing hospitals to take care of people. And, you know what, if this is probably–

Scott Pelley: Make a deal? Who pays for it?

Donald Trump: —the government’s gonna pay for it. But we’re going to save so much money on the other side. But for the most it’s going to be a private plan and people are going to be able to go out and negotiate great plans with lots of different competition with lots of competitors with great companies and they can have their doctors, they can have plans, they can have everything.

He's going to raise taxes on both the wealthy and the non-wealthy. The wealthy by eliminating deductions and the non-wealthy by imposing tariffs on inexpensive imported goods.

As for the judges... who knows what he's going to do?

You don't know any better than I do, and perhaps Trump is equally clueless.

My quote certainly were words by Hamilton directed at Jefferson. Two proponents of small, limited government debating which of their two small government ideas would be more effective.

What we have today are two big government proponents arguing over whose bigger, more expansive government will "fix" the problems created by big expansive government.

[Bigun]

As well, he wouldn't be doing everything he can, to smear, demean, slander and lie about the true conservatives who are FIGHTING to SAVE America and her "greatness"!!!  He IS the absolute best weapon the Democrats could have ever dreamed of.  And I have no doubt, he IS the Trojan Horse for Hillary.  He's done more to destroy the Republican party, the Conservative movement, the Conservative message and the idea of small, limited government than ANY Democrat could ever dream of.  He's the sum of where our society is, and he's riding that wave in all effort to bring forth the progressive agenda, full circle.

LBJ, FDR and Woodrow Wilson would be SOOOO proud.

Yet another EXCELLENT post!

Right on! He's as progressive as they ever were!

[DCPatriot]

We haven't called for the banning of all Trump supporters. We haven't made threats to hunt any Trump supporters down. DC, your characterization is dishonest at best.

Using absurdity to claim a post is absurd doesn't work here.  Not with me.

IMO, our open borders policy included a group of self-righteous d***s.   No vetting was done whatsoever.

But I'll just chalk it up to "Poop Happens".

[Jazzhead]

For me the main thing is he is insane. The man,and I use that term lightly because emotionally he is a 8 year old boy,is a narcissistic sociopath,which means that we are all tools whose only use is to serve him in one way or another. Do any of you REALLY want someone like that destroying our economy to enrich himself,making ultimate foreign policy decisions,and having access to the nuclear launch codes?

That's how I feel as well, SP.   Believe me, for a 40-year partisan who's always preached solidarity,  saying I can't vote for Trump is painful.   But he's unfit for office,  and we're just going to have to endure the pain of the next four years. 

[Luis Gonzalez]

@LMAO

Repealing Obamacare seems like a big step in the right direction, as does removing the federal restrictions on health insurance competition.

Reversing Obama's horrible immigration policies will require federal action but it can hardly be called an expansion.

Likewise, ending the incentives for Common Core is federal action but not an expansion.

Finally, limited government thrives when there are conservative justices on the bench. After eight years of Obama appointments there has been a serious shift in the federal courts direction at every level.

Trump is completely ignorant on Common Core. He's promised to "end it" or "get rid of it" not take away Federal incentives.

Ending Common Core from the Federal government level is an expansion of Federal power in general and an expansion of Federal power over education specifically.

[Longmire]

One of the first things Trump said (in Iowa) was that he'd push to increase the Renewable Fuels Mandate, and use the EPA to the fullest extent of the law to enforce it.

Ethanol is a 100% domestic product so it makes sense to support it.

Trump also promised to end Obama's war on coal and I believe him.

[sneakypete]

You have my complete and total respect, @sneakypete

BTW...do you still think Trump is in this to "throw it"?   

Yes,but at this time it is a toss-up between his desire to use federal money to create his own Mount Rushmore,and his total fear of losing in public in such a way that he can't lie about it.

I still think he entered the game for ego reasons ( *I* am the one that made Hillary president,and could have been president myself,but decided the job was beneath me so I dropped out and let her have it.) and for promises of future government tax and other decisions in his favor after she gets sworn in.

His massive ego may be his downfall,though. If it is anywhere near close in Oct and he still hasn't dropped out,his life may be in danger from the Clinton's and their backers.

IF he stays in and wins,he won't be in office long before documents are made public that would bankrupt him in legal fees and maybe give him some personal time in Club Fed. Because of this and his love for The Donald,I think he will still drop out.

Just wait until you see the bill for services he presents the RNC and the US Goobermint. We know he has been leasing his private jet to the government,as well as the wages he pays his employees,and has been selling the hats he has made in China to his campaign so the campaign can sell them (double-billing),but who knows what else he has been doing?

[Bigun]

Ethanol is a 100% domestic product so it makes sense to support it.

NO! It doesn't!  If ALL inputs are considered it takes 1.2+ units of energy to produce 1 unit of energy from corn based ethanol!

[sneakypete]

We haven't called for the banning of all Trump supporters. We haven't made threats to hunt any Trump supporters down. DC, your characterization is dishonest at best.

@Smokin Joe

Joe,one of us is missing something,here. IMHO,it is the Trump supporters that are acting out their FR characters,not anyone else. They brought the same cult mindset here they had at FR.
They aren't ratpacking and forcing non-Trump people off the board here BECAUSE THEY CAN'T,but that is the only reason.

[musiclady]

That's how I feel as well, SP.   Believe me, for a 40-year partisan who's always preached solidarity,  saying I can't vote for Trump is painful.   But he's unfit for office,  and we're just going to have to endure the pain of the next four years.

The reason it's so painful for people like us, Jazzhead, is that we never dreamed that the party we once supported would nominate someone who is entirely opposed to every value we've ever had.

We never dreamed that a candidate would be so bad, that nothing about him could justify our vote.

Some folks around here have always hated Republicans, but I haven't.  I have always thought the party, listing left, could be resuscitated.   It took Trump to make me realize that it's all over for the party that I once called my political home.

And that IS painful.

[Night Hides Not]

That's how I feel as well, SP.   Believe me, for a 40-year partisan who's always preached solidarity,  saying I can't vote for Trump is painful.   But he's unfit for office,  and we're just going to have to endure the pain of the next four years.

There's only one way left to knock me off the #NeverTrumper ledge: for Mr. Trump to exorcise the petulant 9 YO boy that's trapped inside of him. He's treading dangerously close to my moment of judgment, i.e. it will take 30-45 days for him to prove it.

Until then, he's not getting my vote to be CinC. Hillary is not an option.

Nor is Johnson, Stein, or the young man who has Rick Wilson on his team.

[Bigun]

The reason it's so painful for people like us, Jazzhead, is that we never dreamed that the party we once supported would nominate someone who is entirely opposed to every value we've ever had.

We never dreamed that a candidate would be so bad, that nothing about him could justify our vote.

Some folks around here have always hated Republicans, but I haven't.  I have always thought the party, listing left, could be resuscitated.   It took Trump to make me realize that it's all over for the party that I once called my political home.

And that IS painful.

It is much more than that for me! It is the LENGTHS the party went to to ensure the guy they wanted (the establishment) got the nomination that drove me out of the party!

[musiclady]

It is much more than that for me! It is the LENGTHS the party went to to ensure the guy they wanted (the establishment) got the nomination that drove me out of the party!

Understood.

The convention was painful, and embarrassing.  The establishment/Trump cabal beat out the reasoned conservatives, and IMO, ended any chance that the Republican party would survive.

[L9teen]

Yes,but at this time it is a toss-up between his desire to use federal money to create his own Mount Rushmore,and his total fear of losing in public in such a way that he can't lie about it.

IMO, Trump never cared about winning this.  I agree, he went into this for his ego and to build more of his empire.  Trump this....Trump that....look at his "brand", since that is everything he is...a brand.

But if you look at what he's really doing, he's getting his ducks in a row, literally, to start his own media conglomerate.  He's already got Roger Ailes to run the thing....and a good majority of Fox News hosts out there shilling for him, who would be more than happy, willing and able, to join on as his media egos.

I think the meetings he had with Bill Clinton BEFORE he entered the race, were to jump in to help Hillary get where she is, and to help himself.  And for those who still have common sense left, then it should be obvious that that is all Trump does anything for....is to help himself.  And I'm sure his BFF's, the Clintons, will be paying him back for all his "troubles".

Hence why he rarely attacks her.  Hence why any time there is a scandal or story out about Hillary that could be damaging to her, Trump is out there saying the most outrageous things, all in an effort to train the media lapdogs on his scent and give Clinton cover.  And the good little media hounds, go right along with it.  Notice how Trump hardly has any staff at any of the places he needs to win?  Notice how Trump doesn't have hardly any money in any campaign ads?  Notice how Trump is really barely trying to win?  Either his ego is SO big and massive that he is so delusional to thinks he has this, OR....he doesn't give a rats ass, as that wasn't his plan.  And although the first line of thinking is somewhat accurate, when you take into account, the things he's planning on the side (i.e. his own media network) and who he's aligning himself with, as well, the fact that he's already pushing the narrative that he's being treated unfairly, there's vote rigging, and cheating, etc etc.....it's not a far stretch to add it all together and = Trump doesn't plan on winning.

[bilo]

NO! It doesn't!  If ALL inputs are considered it takes 1.2+ units of energy to produce 1 unit of energy from corn based ethanol!

Great point about ethanol. Also, when we are sitting on a sea of oil it isn't really smart to use food for gas. Corn is one of the staples of our food chain and any excess capacity could be used as a lever in foreign policy.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election

It makes sense that once the day comes when conservative values, limited government ideals, and steadfast convictions become irrelevant, those who hold on to them steadfastly stop being relevant.

[Smokin Joe]

Using absurdity to claim a post is absurd doesn't work here.  Not with me.

IMO, our open borders policy included a group of self-righteous d***s.   No vetting was done whatsoever.

But I'll just chalk it up to "Poop Happens".

Saying

They've all become what they hated at FR.  Fascinating to say the least.

isn't honest either. You have tried to morph your original statement from a sweeping generalization to now a mere group of

"...self-righteous d***s"

.

Is this a forum on the internet or a Country Club? People find this place from all over on the web. Some of us were invited, which I would assume involved some vetting. As for those who just popped in from the aether, well, that's another thing, but hardly something to blame on people who came over from FR--where I believe most posters here have posted at one time or another.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe

Joe,one of us is missing something,here. IMHO,it is the Trump supporters that are acting out their FR characters,not anyone else. They brought the same cult mindset here they had at FR.
They aren't ratpacking and forcing non-Trump people off the board here BECAUSE THEY CAN'T,but that is the only reason.

So it appears, but their projection is tedious, and I can't let it stand, or someone will think it, unchallenged, is factual.