Author Topic: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election  (Read 20929 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Silver Pines

  • Guest
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2016, 06:43:09 pm »

Offline L9teen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,514
  • Gender: Female
  • Am I here?
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2016, 06:58:43 pm »
http://stepstopoliticalepiphany.com/
 Nobody wins voting for the “lesser of two evils”  5 Steps to Political Epiphany is a cartoon about the peril of compromising Christian principles at the ballot box. It’s based on the book A Storm, A Message, A Bottle by Rev. Cary K. Gordon.

I know I've posted this before, but I find it continuously relevant...

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,037
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2016, 07:38:15 pm »


It was not Cruz's failure.  It was the plotting of the establishment wing over McConnell's personal vendetta AND MOSTLY it was Trump's labeling, lying, and slandering of Cruz.

So it wasn't Cruz's fault that he wasn't persuasive?  Whatever happened to the conservative value of self-reliance/accountability?

Look, Cruz got a hell of a lot more time speaking in front of voters than McConnell did during the campaign.  He had plenty of chances to make his case directly to the American people -- tens of millions of them watched the debates.  If he couldn't rebut Trump's charges, that's on him.  Running for President means putting on your big boy pants and actually being able to persuade people.  As right as Cruz is on many issues, he just sucks at persuading people who aren't predisposed to agreeing with him.  He preaches to the converted, and tends to scare off undecideds.  That's the reality.

Quote
Trump and his surrogates labeled Cruz a liar.  Why?  Because Cruz was exposing Trump's flip flopping.  They spread slanderous lies about Cruz, such as that he had 5 different extra marital affairs, that he might be the zodiac killer, that his father was a religious nut, that his father helped scheme the murder of JFK, that his wife is ugly and that she was some globalist conspirator because she was once affiliated with CFR and worked for Goldman Sachs......that he was not eligible....on and on and on.  Cruz took it like a man, but sometimes the bad guy wins because the bad guy uses corrupt tactics.  Blaming Cruz is blaming the victim, imo.  And this issue will not be resolved with more T-nexus slandering of Cruz.

Oh hell, I think the attacks on Cruz' wife's looks, his father, etc., likely helped Cruz more than they hurt him -- precisely because they were so nutty.  Look, no matter who the GOP nominee is, they must be able to parry a media that is going to be 80% against them.  They're going to have to rebut false accusations, and use personality, etc., to convince people that they are not the monster being portrayed.  It is part of the core job of being a good candidate.  The media hated Reagan in 1980, and most of the establishment wasn't too fond of him either.  He beat them both, badly.  Does he get credit for that, or no?

The truth -- as unappealing as it might be -- is that Cruz' personality/demeanor tends to earn him more enemies than friends.  While you can admire him for the enemies he makes, that doesn't address the core reality that being a successful politician requires that you have the ability to persuade voters.  A noble defeat is still a defeat.

Quote
Trump is so corrupt in his character that I would be utterly ashamed to add my name to those seeking his political representation.  God help us if that vindictive narcissist gains the power of the presidency.  God help us if Hillary gets it, too.  One does not nullify the other.  Danger ahead.  My trust is in God.  I will not choose evil as a means of saving myself.  If the nation perishes, it perishes.  I must obey God, which means I cannot be party to the vile tactics of Trump.

Trump is a slimeball.

Quote
As for leaving the party -- the party left me.  The leadership has plotted against all the conservatives in Congress.  They targeted my primary candidate for scorn just because he had the guts to stand up in the Senate and do what conservatives wanted him to do and what he promised voters in his state he would do when they elected him.  Yes, I blame the party. 

Ted had a more than fair opportunity to persuade voters that he was right, that the leadership in the Senate was wrong about him, etc....and he failed.  That's doesn't mean he was in the wrong, but it does mean that he lacked the ability to persuade people that he was right.  He's the classic example of a great appellate lawyer who just isn't as good in front of a jury.

I supported Cruz at the beginning of the primary, then drifted away from him before finally supporting him in the end when Trump was the only real alternative.  Rubio made a comment about him that kind of encapsulated the issue with Cruz -- it's not enough that he's right, but that he must rub in everyone else's face that they're wrong.  You simply will not make friends/build alliances that way, and it isn't even a question of whether your are actually right or wrong, but the tone you use to communicate your opinions to others.   Calling McConnell a liar on the floor of the Senate surely was a fun bit of catharsis for Cruz, a fired up that minority of Republicans who already agreed with him, but it did nothing but earn him more enemies among everyone else.  He could have made the exact same point in less inflammatory language ("I feel misled by the Majority Leader"), that wouldn't have alienated so many other Republicans. 

But that's not Ted -- at least, not yet.  And that really bugs me because I like him on policy more than any other candidate.  But being right isn't going to do him any good if he can't figure out how to persuade undecided, and adopts a tone that ticks off too many people he'll need as allies in order to win.  As of right now, though, he seems to have doubled down on "I'm right and everyone else is wrong", and is going to run with that through 2020.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 07:43:17 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2016, 08:04:26 pm »

Remaining in the GOP is the best platform/bully pulpit we're going to get to try to expand and persuade.  But as soon as we abandon that for some third party, we've reduced ourselves to preaching to a too-small choir, and nobody is even going to hear us, much less actually be persuaded.  Individuals and politicians can remain ideologically strong while still remaining in the party.

I don't buy that insipid argument anymore.  I've seen what the GOP leadership will do to actual Conservatives who will not throw away their principles to support liberal Statism.  I've seen what they've done to actual Conservatives running.  I've watched this velvet coup take place right under our noses and still marvel how many willfully ignore Cook County corruption on a national scale as some kind of 'workable' party and platform we can influence.

The GOP is already dead.  I want nothing more to do with it.

It is an apostate party to the principles that govern me.


The truth is that when it comes to persuading people, the messenger is just as important as the message.  Being "right' doesn't mean squat if you are not persuasive. 

The truth is sir, a majority of this people are a wicked people who do not want to be persuaded in what is right, what is foundational and what is moral.  You will never have a Conservative in power because the people are not Conservative, and working to elect men to high office is not how you reorient a wayward culture and population.  It's the exact opposite - that we are ruled by tyrants reveals the character of this people in this nation.  Change the culture - you will eventually change the leadership.  Let the culture continue to rot and fester, rulers will come waxing worse and worse each cycle - not that corruption hasn't already rendered the voice of the people irrelevant.


That means you have to find candidates who are not only "right", but also adept at persuading those who don't already agree with them.  That's just reality. 

And the reality is that every election cycle you will get more heinous, more ridiculous, more tyrannical candidates running to rule the throne.  Because Isaiah 30:10 governs this people as it has others that have come to ruin.

And I'd submit that we haven't produced a conservative President candidate who was both clearly conservative and persuasive since Reagan.  And no amount of party-switching is going to change the need for us to find that kind of candidate.

Cart before horse.

We are no longer a people that will choose a Reagan to administer the office of the Executive.

We are a people who want a king and a dictator who will punish their enemies and give them the spoils of conquest.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,924
  • Gender: Male
  • Ride for the Brand - Joshua 24:15
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #104 on: September 06, 2016, 08:09:08 pm »
Anybody that was a teenager when Obama took The Oath in Jan 2009...doesn't know "Liberal vs. Conservative", sir.

They only look around and say....'Is THIS what I went to college for?  I can't even afford my rent my own apartment', etc..

And I'm not naive to think there's going to be rainbows and unicorns right out of the gate, when Trump takes The Oath in January.

Ronald Reagan's 1st two years were still rough on a lot of people.   The 2018 Mid-Terms might be a RAT blowout...so it's important not to get cocky like Obama and pass/repeal EVERYTHING they can the 1st two years of his presidency.
And tell them to stay off my lawn gosh durn it.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,081
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #105 on: September 06, 2016, 08:12:10 pm »
@Maj. Bill Martin

Whoa, waitaminute. Cruz should have been all mealy mouthed and diplomatic while Trump was hammering him with a loudmouthed campaign of incendiary lies?

The problem was that Trump's chosen medium, the electronic back yard fence, traditional home of gossips, would circulate lies around the world before the Cruz camp could react--a veritable tsunami of lies, targeted toward the regional audiences where the upcoming primaries were, and coordinated to be delivered in time to affect the opinions of those voters, but too late to be rebutted with facts.

As smear campaigns go, it was brilliant! Just as Triumph of the Will was brilliant propaganda. I don't buy the premises of either, and I refuse to support someone who has arguably robbed America of the person I consider to have been the best applicant for the job, mainly by accusing him repeatedly of "stealing" votes/delegates/whatever and a host of other untruths. I won't vote for Trump, or that lying b*tch the Democrats are running, either.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 08:15:16 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 0
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2016, 08:13:29 pm »
Ronald Reagan's 1st two years were still rough on a lot of people.   The 2018 Mid-Terms might be a RAT blowout...so it's important not to get cocky like Obama and pass/repeal EVERYTHING they can the 1st two years of his presidency.

What are the chances that Trump would get cocky if he wins? :shrug:

Offline Cripplecreek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,718
  • Gender: Male
  • Constitutional Extremist
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2016, 08:20:32 pm »
What are the chances that Trump would get cocky if he wins? :shrug:

 :silly:

Online DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,372
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2016, 08:22:27 pm »
What are the chances that Trump would get cocky if he wins? :shrug:

Believe you misunderstood me.

I meant that Obama didn't take the mid-terms seriously, and lost the House.  The dumbass then lost the Senate.

I want Trump to mirror Obama...use his pen and his phone and UNDO everything that the Kenyan did...before the mid-term elections.

...right down to impeaching all the Progressive judges he appointed.

...of course Trump will get cocky.   But this time, he's OUR bastard.   That should count for something....if you love America.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 08:23:03 pm by DCPatriot »
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 0
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2016, 08:32:22 pm »
Believe you misunderstood me.

I meant that Obama didn't take the mid-terms seriously, and lost the House.  The dumbass then lost the Senate.

I want Trump to mirror Obama...use his pen and his phone and UNDO everything that the Kenyan did...before the mid-term elections.

...right down to impeaching all the Progressive judges he appointed.

...of course Trump will get cocky.   But this time, he's OUR bastard.   That should count for something....if you love America.

I'm glad you clarified that, because I did read it differently than you intended...but now my joke is not as funny 888oops888

Offline L9teen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,514
  • Gender: Female
  • Am I here?
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #110 on: September 06, 2016, 10:08:52 pm »
@L9teen

Wow! That's powerful! I'm glad you reposted it. I have some folks I want to send it to.

You might want to think about making the link part of your tagline so it will be available on all your posts.
Thanks for the advice.  I've added it. :)

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,081
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #111 on: September 06, 2016, 11:20:47 pm »
http://stepstopoliticalepiphany.com/
 Nobody wins voting for the “lesser of two evils”  5 Steps to Political Epiphany is a cartoon about the peril of compromising Christian principles at the ballot box. It’s based on the book A Storm, A Message, A Bottle by Rev. Cary K. Gordon.

I know I've posted this before, but I find it continuously relevant...
I had never seen that, so thank you for again posting it.
Many conclusions there I had already come to on my own, and knowing of Duverger's Law puts a name on a phenomenon we are still observing in the political process here in the USA.

For those who have not seen those videos, they are well worth the time.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Silver Pines

  • Guest
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #112 on: September 06, 2016, 11:31:26 pm »


@AllThatJazzZ 

Yeah, I won't be forgetting that.  A vengeful, stupid child has no business in the Oval Office.

Silver Pines

  • Guest
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #113 on: September 06, 2016, 11:34:23 pm »
What are the chances that Trump would get cocky if he wins? :shrug:

@Once-Ler

Are you kidding?  Not a chance!


Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #114 on: September 06, 2016, 11:47:43 pm »
What are the chances that Trump would get cocky if he wins? :shrug:

@Once-Ler

Slim. He is known to be a pretty modest fellow,so why would that change?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Fantom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,030
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #115 on: September 06, 2016, 11:54:52 pm »
What nevertrumps don't realize is that the GOP came alive when the people handed Trump the nomination.

Well, maybe the New Democrat Party came alive.

And only a very few republicans and a lot of democrats handed trump the nomination. Most real Conservatives voted for someone else.  trump would call that "rigged" if he did not benefit from it.
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Frederick Douglass

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,251
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #116 on: September 07, 2016, 12:13:47 am »
We are losing because the ideals that formed our nation are not be taught any longer.  There is only one road to correcting this.  TEACH IT!  PREACH IT!  DEBATE IT!  PERSUADE IT!  Not by selling out. 

I am entirely with you, four square, but the sad part is that the truth will never be popular. It is the nature of sin. Folks always take what looks like the easy way out. Folks always prefer to feel good over discipline and self-control.

Much like my misspent yoot - I needed the 2x4 of reality upside my head before I obtained realization. Made my ol' man's smackin me upside the head all those years into the love-taps that they truly were... but I couldn't see that at the time.

Same thing here. Either the principles that we were founded on, OR party on... The 2x4 is coming. It always does.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80,279
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #117 on: September 07, 2016, 12:17:43 am »
@Right_in_Virginia

I just call them as a I see them.  I've seen how you all behave on those FR rally threads.  One of them is now scheduling her day around Trump appearances.

Your post makes no sense--at least to me @CatherineofAragon   I was thanking you for providing such an accurate and succinct definition of the still not over Cruz brigade.

As for FR .... it fascinates me how much you care about what goes on there.    ^-^

Silver Pines

  • Guest
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #118 on: September 07, 2016, 01:13:17 am »
@Right_in_Virginia

Quote
Your post makes no sense--at least to me @CatherineofAragon   I was thanking you for providing such an accurate and succinct definition of the still not over Cruz brigade.

Mm-hmm.

Quote
As for FR .... it fascinates me how much you care about what goes on there.    ^-^

Try to be less predictable, RIV.



Offline Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80,279
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #119 on: September 07, 2016, 01:27:55 am »
@Right_in_Virginia

Mm-hmm.

Try to be less predictable, RIV.

Good talk, @CatherineofAragon   Good talk.   :facepalm2:

Offline Fantom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,030
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2016, 01:34:54 am »
Good talk, @CatherineofAragon   Good talk.   :facepalm2:

I actually think you are a false flag for Hillary opp.
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Frederick Douglass

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2016, 01:47:09 am »
"If we must have an enemy at the head of the Government, let it be one whom we can oppose & for whom we are not responsible, who will not involve our party in the disgrace of his foolish and bad measures." - Alexander Hamilton
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline beandog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 989
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #122 on: September 07, 2016, 01:54:48 am »
I actually think you are a false flag for Hillary opp.
Either that or just not very bright.

Offline Longmire

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,262
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #123 on: September 07, 2016, 02:35:33 am »
"If we must have an enemy at the head of the Government, let it be one whom we can oppose & for whom we are not responsible, who will not involve our party in the disgrace of his foolish and bad measures."- Alexander Hamilton

Hamilton is the progenitor of the American School, an economic philosophy upon which much of Trump macroeconomic policies is based. I'm quite sure Hamilton would look kindly on fellow New Yorker Trump's plan to Make America Great Again.  :patriot:


Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Hey #NeverTrumps: This Could Be Your Last Relevant Election
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2016, 03:26:56 am »
Hamilton is the progenitor of the American School, an economic philosophy upon which much of Trump macroeconomic policies is based. I'm quite sure Hamilton would look kindly on fellow New Yorker Trump's plan to Make America Great Again.  :patriot:

America is great.

Big government is what is wrong with it.

Bigger government. like what Trump professes to support, isn't the solution.

It is the problem.

Hamilton was first and foremost a Federalist. A believer in the equal distribution of power between the central government and the States.

A man who runs for POTUS on the platform that "only" he (and by extent the central government) can fix our issues, is no Hamilton. 
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx