Author Topic: The Morality of Voting for Trump  (Read 23878 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kartographer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 367
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2016, 12:33:06 pm »
Can you ever answer a question? I have posed the same question numerous and you have chosen not to answer it, so I ask again didn't Trump declare that no only did he not want our votes, but that he didn't need them?

As far as insulting you that is impossible as order for you to feel insulted, you would first have to first value my opinion and you clearly don't value my opinion.
Charley Waite: "Well you may not know this, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dying."

Offline don-o

  • Worldview Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,280
  • FR Class of '98
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2016, 12:51:26 pm »

Using the quote feature is helpful.
Can you ever answer a question? I have posed the same question numerous and you have chosen not to answer it, so I ask again didn't Trump declare that no only did he not want our votes, but that he didn't need them?
Wouldn't we really need to look at whatever it was he said, in context? Whatever it was, it has not made a deep impression on me. Not deep enough to cloud my prudential (better/worse) judgement.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,218923.msg1000871/topicseen.html#msg1000871

Quote
As far as insulting you that is impossible as order for you to feel insulted, you would first have to first value my opinion and you clearly don't value my opinion.
I apologize for whatever it was I said or did not say that left that impression.


Offline bilo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,339
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2016, 01:08:11 pm »
Knowing what we know about Hillary Clinton and her plans for America, and the importance of the Supreme Court, we conservatives have a moral obligation to both oppose her and support Donald Trump.

I agree that we know the left's plans for the judiciary in general and the SCOTUS in the particular, but when has the SCOTUS ever represented me and my beliefs? Every Pro-Life law gets overturned, instead of deferring to the wisdom of individual States and their citizenry. obamacare was legalized by the SCOTUS making it legal for the fed. govt to mandate that I buy products I don't want and limiting my individual freedom. Homosexual marriage has not only been found to be legally acceptable, but now is a protected right. All these things were done with a majority of the appointments on the court having been picked by Pub POTUS and in several instances a Pub controlled Senate. So why support an evil man like Trump vs an evil woman like hillary.


A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Offline bilo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,339
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2016, 01:13:25 pm »
Trump got curb stomped among church-going Christians in the primaries, it was the non-churched Christians who leaned to Trump.

Didn't Trump get a lot of big name Evangelicals to come out and support him? IIRC, Franklin Graham support him. Also, the head of Liberty University if IIRC.
A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Offline Henry Noel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2016, 01:14:10 pm »
Do not the motives lead to the ideas?

I love to smoke, ergo, smoking is good.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 01:14:34 pm by Henry Noel »
Gee, it feels great to be a gangster!

Offline bilo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,339
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2016, 01:22:10 pm »
I apologize for whatever it was I said or did not say that left that impression.

I'm not involved in kartograper's dispute with you, but I sure do appreciate someone who acts like a gentleman. For some reason our culture has developed the view that acting like a gentleman is a sign of weakness. It's not and never has been. It is a sign of good character and confidence.
A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Offline Blizzardnh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,969
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2016, 01:34:41 pm »
  For me I think its coming down to this.
Clinton has an Obama view of this country.
Trump for all his many faults does love his country.
Other than that they both stink.
    But it sure looks like one of the two will be in the white house next year.
 the other parties have no chance ,although I would love to see the constitution party take off.
Take your pick or not.

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2016, 01:43:03 pm »
  For me I think its coming down to this.
Clinton has an Obama view of this country.
Trump for all his many faults does love his country.
Other than that they both stink.
    But it sure looks like one of the two will be in the white house next year.
 the other parties have no chance ,although I would love to see the constitution party take off.
Take your pick or not.

What evidence do you have that Trump loves this country?   I mean other than his current words?

Because his words mean absolutely nothing, since he is lying through his teeth about pretty much everything he says he believes right now.

He is a con man.  He is a wolf in sheep's clothing (and the clothing doesn't even cover him).  He is not the lesser of two evils, he IS evil.

And for me, to vote for Donald Trump is equally as immoral as voting for Hillary Clinton.

When it comes to political values, I may compromise.  When it comes to Biblical morality, I cannot.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online massadvj

  • Editorial Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,346
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2016, 01:44:29 pm »
Personally, I do feel a moral obliigation to oppose Hiilary Clinton.  However, I am not yet certain that Trump is a viable vehicle for that.  I will wait to see if Trump gets close enough to win my state (Pennsylvania) before I decide.  Right now he is 10 points behind here so I have no moral dilemma.  My vote does not enable a Hillary presidency.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 01:45:43 pm by massadvj »

Offline RoosGirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,759
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2016, 02:01:25 pm »
I love to smoke, ergo, smoking is good.

That is akin to I hate Hillary, ergo, I love Trump.

Offline don-o

  • Worldview Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,280
  • FR Class of '98
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2016, 02:06:52 pm »
That is akin to I hate Hillary, ergo, I love Trump.

Only if you discard the better/worse framework that is prudential judgment; a framework which I did not invent. I invite readers to do their own research and thinking on the matter.

Online 240B

  • Lord of all things Orange!
  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,278
    • I try my best ...
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2016, 02:26:55 pm »
Only "evangelicals" who don't value morality and truth......... or who are "Christians" because it will make them prosper, and they get coffee and donuts during "worship."

Uuummmm...Ok.

What kind of a 'real' Church would offer coffee and donuts during the service? Who would do such a thing?



I'm only kidding. I just though that was a funny remark. It made me chuckle this morning, which is a good thing. My official policy has always been that individuals should be allowed to make their own moral choices concerning the consumption of donuts in Church.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 02:29:14 pm by 240B »
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2016, 02:43:19 pm »
Only "evangelicals" who don't value morality and truth......... or who are "Christians" because it will make them prosper, and they get coffee and donuts during "worship."

Uuummmm...Ok.

What kind of a 'real' Church would offer coffee and donuts during the service? Who would do such a thing?

I'm only kidding. I just though that was a funny remark. It made me chuckle this morning, which is a good thing. My official policy has always been that individuals should be allowed to make their own moral choices concerning the consumption of donuts in Church.

Of course you entirely missed the point of the comment, so I shall elucidate further to clarify for you.....

The American church has become comfy and soft (I indict myself as part of that softness).   Though there is some persecution going on in certain aspects of Christianity, we basically have had complete freedom to worship and live, and because of our prosperity, most of us have never suffered a bit for our faith, and have grown weak.  This is not just my opinion.  It is shared by many.

The mega church and the prosperity gospel aspect of "evangelicalism" (though I would argue it is a false gospel), with it's easy chairs and theatre like environment (coffee and donuts during worship) has increased the weakness of the church and many who claim to be "Evangelicals" don't have a clue as to what it really means.

Many in the church live exactly like the world lives, with its immorality and greed and complete self-absorption.

Thus, when "Evangelicals" are polled, those responding are not necessarily Christ-followers who know what Scripture says about anything, let alone morality.

I hope that helps you understand a bit better what the point of my post was.

It wasn't intended to be funny, because it reflects a tragedy, really.   When Satan attacks us (as he is doing daily), we don't have the resources to fight because we are weak and flabby.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2016, 02:48:55 pm »
Only if you discard the better/worse framework that is prudential judgment; a framework which I did not invent. I invite readers to do their own research and thinking on the matter.

Will you accept it if others do their own research (as the vast majority of us who oppose Trump have done), and still disagree with you?

When you make these kinds of statements repeatedly, the obvious inference we are left with is that you are dismissing our views as not having done adequate research, and that anyone who is truly informed will come to the same conclusion as you have come to.

The truth is that we ARE informed, and we HAVE done our homework, and we still disagree with your conclusion.

Can you accept that?
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2016, 02:52:53 pm »
The Morality of Voting for Trump

Knowing what we know about Hillary Clinton and her plans for America, and the importance of the Supreme Court, we conservatives have a moral obligation to both oppose her and support Donald Trump. "

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! - Isaiah 5:20
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 02:53:11 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2016, 02:55:30 pm »


Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!


Woe to those who are heroes in drinking wine And valiant men in mixing strong drink,

Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away the rights of the ones who are in the right!


Isaiah 5:21 - 24

Wow.  I guess I should have read the comments before responding, I just read the OP and was hit with that same verse so I hit 'reply' without seeing that you already provided the same scripture!
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline RoosGirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,759
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2016, 02:55:36 pm »
Only if you discard the better/worse framework that is prudential judgment; a framework which I did not invent. I invite readers to do their own research and thinking on the matter.

Only if you look at the equation in a prudential manner.  The first statement I commented on was not prudential and so I responded in kind in an effort to point out the non-prudential (though I did not necessarily think of it in those terms).

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2016, 03:02:00 pm »
Doublepluswrong

Not necessarily, if you believe that voting for Trump really is immoral.

It's obviously far more extreme, but is it really that different?   You are choosing to do something immoral for a "moral" outcome.

I think there's a parallel there.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online 240B

  • Lord of all things Orange!
  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,278
    • I try my best ...
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2016, 03:04:35 pm »
Before I am off to my daily adventure, and revel in whatever this beautiful day may bring, I will attempt to add to the discussion here by reposting an excerpt of something I wrote yesterday. It seems relevant and germane to the topic at hand.


Quote
Republicans may be taking a considered principled stance. The Leftists don't care. They LOVE it. They are all about winning at any cost. And they will use whatever the Republicans give them in any way they can to 'win', and take over America. That is no joke.

From my perspective, if Donald Trump is as much a Liberal as Hillary, if there is no difference between them, if you really truly believe that, then God help us all.

I do not believe that Hillary and Trump are the same at all. If that makes me wrong, then so be it. I stand before you wrong. In this case the Trump Devil I don't really know, absolutely must be better than the Clinton Devil that stands before me now, bold, cackling, and flipping her middle finger up at God and America.

I have a calling, a duty, and a responsibility. Unlike some other fortunate ones, I bear the burden of standing up and stopping her. There is no way possible for me to sit this one out, for whatever reason I may want to. I have to do the right thing, even if it seems wrong to many of those around me.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 03:07:06 pm by 240B »
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Online Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,593
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2016, 03:05:10 pm »
Quote from: Laura Ingraham
Knowing what we know about Hillary Clinton and her plans for America, and the importance of the Supreme Court,

Stop the tape right there.  The importance of the Supreme Court?  Really?  The best candidate we could have possibly had was the same guy who clerked for Michael Luttig.  And now they suddenly want to play the SCOTUS card?

Ten years ago, I saw Laura Ingraham come close to orgasm on air at the mere mention of Michael Luttig's name.  What in the hell has happened to her since then?  Is she really defining morality as standing for the one person who has attacked and demonized the Luttig protege more than anyone else on this planet?

Let me say this again to all you Trump supporters out there.  If you actually gave a damn about the Supreme Court, then you would have ran away from Trump as fast as your little cultist legs could carry you.  But no, you were more interested in revenge than you were in fixing America.  You had your chance at the most faithful candidate to the Constitution we have seen in the last 56 years.  Yet you rejected him in favor of someone who holds Amendments I, II, V, and X in contempt.  And now you dare to question my morality?  To hell with you all.  You've made your bed.  Now the rest of us must lie in it.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline TomSea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40,432
  • Gender: Male
  • All deserve a trial if accused
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2016, 03:08:47 pm »
It's a lot more moral to vote for Trump than Bush or Clinton or Obama who have done so much to hurt Middle Eastern Christianity.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-the-iraq-war-became-a-war-on-christians/


Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2016, 03:09:05 pm »
btw, @240B .... I am SO far past being offended by "Church Lady" images that you should have saved it for someone else you wanted to deride.

Anyone (especially those of us who are clearly female) who stands up against immorality gets knee-jerk personal attacks about being "sanctimonious" and those with lesser intellect usually accompany those ad hominems with Dana Carvey images.

I guess I should respond to your inane, "you support Hillary" attacks the same way as I did to your dopey church lady.

Laugh at YOU because you posted it, and not have a millisecond's worth of anger at you for doing it.

It's a trite and meaningless response to a serious subject, and reflects poorly on you, not me.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline TomSea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40,432
  • Gender: Male
  • All deserve a trial if accused
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2016, 03:12:55 pm »
Stop the tape right there.  The importance of the Supreme Court?  Really?  The best candidate we could have possibly had was the same guy who clerked for Michael Luttig.  And now they suddenly want to play the SCOTUS card?

Ten years ago, I saw Laura Ingraham come close to orgasm on air at the mere mention of Michael Luttig's name.  What in the hell has happened to her since then?  Is she really defining morality as standing for the one person who has attacked and demonized the Luttig protege more than anyone else on this planet?

Let me say this again to all you Trump supporters out there.  If you actually gave a damn about the Supreme Court, then you would have ran away from Trump as fast as your little cultist legs could carry you.  But no, you were more interested in revenge than you were in fixing America.  You had your chance at the most faithful candidate to the Constitution we have seen in the last 56 years.  Yet you rejected him in favor of someone who holds Amendments I, II, V, and X in contempt.  And now you dare to question my morality?  To hell with you all.  You've made your bed.  Now the rest of us must lie in it.

 Oh, yeah, Teddy is the great exponent of constitutionalism who was allied with Trump, appeared with rallies at Trump. Is he part of the Trump cult too??

 :silly:

Mods, again, I would point out, it seems inconsistent to allow someone to berate others who are merely supporting the party's nomination and calling them cultists and the like, if the mods rule one can't say such statements are pro-Hillary, it is forcing one to argue with their hands tied behind their backs.

Furthermore, Trump has not done the backstabbing of Christianity in the Middle East of President Bush.

Yes, if we are talking about morality, this should be brought up.


Offline don-o

  • Worldview Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,280
  • FR Class of '98
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2016, 03:13:51 pm »
Will you accept it if others do their own research (as the vast majority of us who oppose Trump have done), and still disagree with you?

When you make these kinds of statements repeatedly, the obvious inference we are left with is that you are dismissing our views as not having done adequate research, and that anyone who is truly informed will come to the same conclusion as you have come to.

The truth is that we ARE informed, and we HAVE done our homework, and we still disagree with your conclusion.

Can you accept that?

Please stop stalking me.

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Re: The Morality of Voting for Trump
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2016, 03:14:00 pm »
It's a lot more moral to vote for Trump than Bush or Clinton or Obama who have done so much to hurt Middle Eastern Christianity.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-the-iraq-war-became-a-war-on-christians/

I hope you realize, dear Tom, that your statement is filled with flaws in both reason and logic.

No matter what "Bush, Clinton and Obama" did in the ME, it does not support the idea that voting for Trump is "moral."

It's convoluted at best, and in reality, an entirely faulty conclusion.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.