What forms of taxation are justified if any?

[Bigun]

It is a lovely graphic. Who is going to administer the prebates and prevent fraud, if not the IRS?

ALL spelled out clearly in the bill! And it ain't the IRS!

[Smokin Joe]

The IRS should be abolished. Any income tax is immoral.

If I provide goods or services to you and you decide that those goods or services are worth three chickens and a goat, so we make the exchange, the IRS considers the chickens and the goat "income".

How so? It was an exchange, value for value, which we agreed was equitable. No gain, just a swap.
If I had traded you ducks for the chickens and a goat, the IRS still considers that "income". Again, how?
Similarly, if you gave me pieces of paper I could exchange for goods or services, we still made an exchange, value for value: a swap.
If I work for someone and exchange my skill or labor for those pieces of paper, isn't that still an exchange, value for value?

How is exchanging value for value "income"?

[Smokin Joe]

ALL spelled out clearly in the bill! And it ain't the IRS!

Just spell it out in your own words, please. Give us the executive summary.

[Bigun]

Just spell it out in your own words, please. Give us the executive summary.

The Social security administration handles the prebate and the individual state sales tax collection apparati handle all the rest including the necessary transfers to the US Treasury for which they are well compensated.

[JustPassinThru]

Any income tax puts the burden on the working class and that is wrong. The IRS is too powerful and is abused as a political tool. The government should not be privy to where I work and how much money I make.

The Fair Tax would pass only if the income tax were repealed- that is the whole point.

And how does taxing at the point of sale not "put the burden on the working class"?

At income or at sale.  Same thing, except that first the infrastructure is already in place to tax income.  Creating a separate set of books, programs, systems of transmission from each and every retail business to the FedGov will be INCREDIBLY onerous.

Do rich people not pay taxes?  How did they get their money?  Did it fall from Heaven, like manna?

Income is taxed.  Be it wages, dividends, profits, inheritance...it is taxed.  Saying that rich people aren't taxed, is ridiculous.

The PROBLEM is that the tax burden falls unfairly on those who are not wealthy but are making high wages - and are hit with this "progressive" tax which makes it HARDER to ACCUMULATE wealth.  A flat tax does away with that.

The Fairtax tub-thumpers keep on promising that it will "replace" the Income Tax...wanna bet?  You got that McConjob in the Senate; that execrable Paul Rino driving the house, and Mister Great Deals! coming in...if this is to even be given a hearing. 

Wanna watch and see what is a Great Deal!?  Income Tax PLUS Fairtax...except the "Fairtax" is "improved" by adding taxes at every level of production.  In other words, a Value-Added Tax.  JUST WHAT THE LEFT HAS BEEN HOPING FOR.

And that, as they say, is that.  The economy will be stopped like a hammer stops a watch.

[truth_seeker]

What is the point of debating the method of taxation, if voters support a given level of taxation and benefits ??

Supporting fatherless children, of an entire subset of society is already baked into the "moral basis" of the society.

Now so is guaranteed medical care, through some scheme.

We shouldn't really waste time talking about taxes. We should reconsider the level of benefits.

Likewise the priorities of various objects of expenditure. Do we prefer guns, or butter ??

Things which were in the public arena of discourse, but rarely even warrant a sentence or two.

We don't discuss guns, because we bask in the confidence we are not vulnerable. Yet 50 years ago, we worried about nuclear weapons raining down.

We assume a few terrorist attacks are okay. We simply fly unmanned airplanes, take out a few terrorists, and the public is placated.

So called conservatives, worry about terrorists' families, for gosh sakes.

And so called conservatives argue to let the Islamic rape of western women go on, lest we hurt the poor dear's feelings.



 

[JustPassinThru]

No.

To consider taxation, one must first decide what is the AIM of taxation.

Is it to fund the government?  Pay for public-safety forces?

Pay for "internal improvements" - roads, bridges, canals...railroads...airports...?

Pay for "fatherless children"?

Pay for the mothers of fatherless children?

Pay for idle adults, who "can't" find work?

Pay for college for those who want it?...taking from those who did not have that opportunity and giving to those who want it but not to sacrifice for it?

To redistribute income, to "make things fair"?

Is that the purpose of taxation?  Of government?  Of law?  To provide lawful cover for popular plundering schemes?

To use law so that the many can plunder the few; and then a few plunder the rest; and have everyone plunder everyone, and then NO ONE has right to property except by government license and dispensation?  Making us ALL...SERFS?

I guess that's what a majority of us want.  Until we see what it's like; but by then the power of the State will be entrenched and as hard to shake as was the Soviet Union.

[truth_seeker]

No.

To consider taxation, one must first decide what is the AIM of taxation.

Is it to fund the government?  Pay for public-safety forces?

Pay for "internal improvements" - roads, bridges, canals...railroads...airports...?

Pay for "fatherless children"?

Pay for the mothers of fatherless children?

Pay for idle adults, who "can't" find work?

Pay for college for those who want it?...taking from those who did not have that opportunity and giving to those who want it but not to sacrifice for it?

To redistribute income, to "make things fair"?

Is that the purpose of taxation?  Of government?  Of law?  To provide lawful cover for popular plundering schemes?

To use law so that the many can plunder the few; and then a few plunder the rest; and have everyone plunder everyone, and then NO ONE has right to property except by government license and dispensation?  Making us ALL...SERFS?

I guess that's what a majority of us want.  Until we see what it's like; but by then the power of the State will be entrenched and as hard to shake as was the Soviet Union.

Which candidate advised that we should withdraw support for fatherless children or their mothers, free college, endless wars without victories, redistributing incomes, etc.?

If there was one, I missed it.

I vaguely remember when both parties touted "ending welfare as we know it," but that was long, long ago.

Lately even supposedly the most conservative, do NOT go there.

[Bigun]

Income is taxed.  Be it wages, dividends, profits, inheritance...it is taxed.  Saying that rich people aren't taxed, is ridiculous.

What is the precise definition of "income"?

Do those who have the financial wherewithal that allows them to arrange things in such a way that they are able to take in all kinds of revenue with little to none of it fitting the definition of "income" (whatever that may be today) in the tax code?

[Bigun]

And how does taxing at the point of sale not "put the burden on the working class"?

At income or at sale.  Same thing, except that first the infrastructure is already in place to tax income.  Creating a separate set of books, programs, systems of transmission from each and every retail business to the FedGov will be INCREDIBLY onerous.

Do rich people not pay taxes?  How did they get their money?  Did it fall from Heaven, like manna?

Income is taxed.  Be it wages, dividends, profits, inheritance...it is taxed.  Saying that rich people aren't taxed, is ridiculous.

COMPLETELY wrong on ALL counts!  But you already know that don't you?


The PROBLEM is that the tax burden falls unfairly on those who are not wealthy but are making high wages - and are hit with this "progressive" tax which makes it HARDER to ACCUMULATE wealth.  A flat tax does away with that.

The Fairtax tub-thumpers keep on promising that it will "replace" the Income Tax...wanna bet?  You got that McConjob in the Senate; that execrable Paul Rino driving the house, and Mister Great Deals! coming in...if this is to even be given a hearing. 

Wanna watch and see what is a Great Deal!?  Income Tax PLUS Fairtax...except the "Fairtax" is "improved" by adding taxes at every level of production.  In other words, a Value-Added Tax.  JUST WHAT THE LEFT HAS BEEN HOPING FOR.

And that, as they say, is that.  The economy will be stopped like a hammer stops a watch.

[JustPassinThru]

What is the precise definition of "income"?

It's right by the meaning of "is."

It's pretty obvious, unless your aim is to obfuscate.

Do those who have the financial wherewithal that allows them to arrange things in such a way that they are able to take in all kinds of revenue with little to none of it fitting the definition of "income" (whatever that may be today) in the tax code?

Describe those methods.

Because there ARE no legal ways of receiving money without taxation.

This is the Left's fantasy - that all those "rich people" live without paying taxes.  THEY DO NOT.  Every IMAGINABLE source of income is taxed.  In-kind assistance, such as company lodging, company cars, per diem on the road...ALL TAXED.

What kind of income do you have in mind?  Explain what it is, and if you list something that truly isn't taxed that I haven't thought of...the solution is simple.  TAX it, the same way Company Cars are now taxed for traveling industrial sales reps.

[Bigun]

It's right by the meaning of "is."

It's pretty obvious, unless your aim is to obfuscate.

Describe those methods.

Because there ARE no legal ways of receiving money without taxation.

This is the Left's fantasy - that all those "rich people" live without paying taxes.  THEY DO NOT.  Every IMAGINABLE source of income is taxed.  In-kind assistance, such as company lodging, company cars, per diem on the road...ALL TAXED.

What kind of income do you have in mind?  Explain what it is, and if you list something that truly isn't taxed that I haven't thought of...the solution is simple.  TAX it, the same way Company Cars are now taxed for traveling industrial sales reps.

There are a great many ways to receive revenue that doesn't qualify as income under the current tax code revenue from investments in municipal bonds being just one example!

Anyone with any idea what-so-ever about the current monstrosity of a tax code knows that and would never make such a foolish statement. I'm not going to waste my time trying to educate you further. 

[JustPassinThru]

There are a great many ways to receive revenue that doesn't qualify as income under the current tax code revenue from investments in municipal bonds being just one example!

Who the hell gets rich off municipal bonds?

Do you know WHY muni bonds are tax-free?  How about, because their yield is so low and they're of higher risk than many corporate bonds, that a tax incentive is the only way to sell them?

Do you think incentives will go away with a changed tax scheme?  Of COURSE not.  Politicians will still have grandiose plans and will need to sell their bonds to pretend to pay for them.  So there will still be some sort of incentive, paid for out of the public coffers.

Moreover, bonds are BOUGHT.  With money...THAT WAS EARNED AND TAXED.

Nice try.  Do you have a less-ridiculous example?

[JustPassinThru]

Anyone with any idea what-so-ever about the current monstrosity of a tax code knows that and would never make such a foolish statement. I'm not going to waste my time trying to educate you further.

The tax code is monstrous because of all the givebacks, all the deductions, all the depreciations and accelerated depreciations, all the carry-overs on corporate losses, all the primary-residence mortgage deductions.

You abolish the corporate tax, which of course the Fairtax tub-thumpers do NOT talk about, and you do away with four-fifths of the Tax Code.

Now.  Again.  Who gets rich on untaxed income.

If you don't know, say it.  I know:  NOBODY.

The top two percent of wagearners pay 55 percent of all taxes collected.

[roamer_1]

How about both, you say we need USDA.. well how about those who think so, pay for it by paying $10.00 a pound for steak carrying a USDA label. And those of us who do not think we need it can buy our steak at $3.00 a pound for steak not carrying a USDA label.. Or however it sorts out in a truly free market.

I am not claiming to have no meat with that sticker - I do buy meat on a styrofoam tray, mostly burger and chicken, now and then. But by far and away, my meat comes from the woods - Deer, elk and fish - And most of my beef is by the quarter or half cow, locally grown, pasture fed, locally butchered, if not butchered by myself.

The reason USDA has a purpose is because of meat being nationally distributed... Otherwise vastly overrated.
Fresh, local meat is always the way to go. Sad to me that most folks don't even know what a local butcher shop even is.

[Bigun]

[JustPassinThru]

Another cute false graphic.

BUSINESS OWNERS are going to have to hire bookkeeping firms, separate escrow accounts for tax monies, tax lawyers to be sure they're in compliance with charging what they should, holding as they're required, NOT charging for exempted items, paying promptly, audits to support...

ANYTHING but easy.

If CORPORATE TAXES WERE ABOLISHED - which is a zero-sum game, since corporations are only legal forms and only individual people can actually be taxed - but if corporate taxes were abolished, most of the IRS would be useless and gone.  Most of the Tax Code would be redacted.

If a basic flat-tax were enacted, AND LIBERALS KEPT OUT OF THE TAX CODE, filing your taxes would take twenty minutes on a half-page form.

This Fairtax nonsense, claiming all this wonderful improvement, is akin to the Federal Government ordering school-crossing signs to be Day-Glo Green, now, instead of yellow.  NO meaningful difference, and a HUGE cost.

[Restored]

A Flat Tax would still require you to figure out your income with the IRS. It would just eliminate the deductions dance. 

[Smokin Joe]

Which candidate advised that we should withdraw support for fatherless children or their mothers, free college, endless wars without victories, redistributing incomes, etc.?

If there was one, I missed it.

I vaguely remember when both parties touted "ending welfare as we know it," but that was long, long ago.

Lately even supposedly the most conservative, do NOT go there.

IIRC, Goldwater. But that was before The Great Society.

[Smokin Joe]

It's right by the meaning of "is."

It's pretty obvious, unless your aim is to obfuscate.

Let's play, because I don't think so.

If I trade you my unopened 20 oz Coke for your unopened 20 oz Pepsi, even up, is that income?

If I trade my corn sheller to you for a couple of goats, and we decide that's a fair trade, value for value, is that income?

If I trade my skill at fixing your garbage disposal for a home cooked meal, a seat at your dinner table for one meal, is that income?

If I trade my skill at repairing your computer for some pieces of paper which I can later trade for something else I want, and we agree the pieces of paper represent an equal value to my services, is that income?

If I trade those pieces of paper which represent the value of my labor to you to someone else for mowing my lawn, is that income?

All of those are equal exchanges, value for value, decided by the participants to be even up exchanges. How is that income? How have any of us gained by exchanging something we had for something we wanted more? If I give you a ten dollar bill and you give me two fives, is that income?

The only question the IRS would answer "no" to is trading a ten dollar bill for two fives.

Describe those methods.

Because there ARE no legal ways of receiving money without taxation.

This is the Left's fantasy - that all those "rich people" live without paying taxes.  THEY DO NOT.  Every IMAGINABLE source of income is taxed.  In-kind assistance, such as company lodging, company cars, per diem on the road...ALL TAXED.

What kind of income do you have in mind?  Explain what it is, and if you list something that truly isn't taxed that I haven't thought of...the solution is simple.  TAX it, the same way Company Cars are now taxed for traveling industrial sales reps.

You need to fill out a Form 2016. Per diem is deductible, the rate depends on where you are. Mileage is deductible, as is the cost of a rental or lease vehicle. Company provided housing, if done for the convenience of the employer is not taxable. The only mileage taxable on a company car is for personal use, and if you are being told different, you need a new accountant.

[truth_seeker]

IIRC, Goldwater. But that was before The Great Society.

Out of wedlock kids, get you money. The FedGov subsidizes bad behavior and harmful outcomes, with the tax system.

And by getting money from government for harmful behavior, it relieves families, churches etc. from responsibility.

And Republicans say virtually nothing about this.

So called conservatives these days, are mostly phonies, who want welfare for life, money for out of wedlock kids, money for lifetime unemployment, open borders, muslim refugee resettlements etc.

Obama reversed the "end of welfare as we knew It" taking it back, and nobody said a thing in 2012 or now. To say it now, gets calls of racism.

This nation is not talking about a Space Program, it is talking about transgenders in the ladies rooms. No doubt all federal facilities need to be converted at great cost.

Goldwater conservatives are called racists, by contemporary "conservatives." Phonies, I say.

[JustPassinThru]

A Flat Tax would still require you to figure out your income with the IRS. It would just eliminate the deductions dance.

Yeah.  Off a Tax Table.

Find your number.  Look at what was withheld.  Figure the difference, one way or another...and file your refund claim or write your check.

Twenty minutes maximum.

[JustPassinThru]

Let's play, because I don't think so.

If I trade you my unopened 20 oz Coke for your unopened 20 oz Pepsi, even up, is that income?

Before I can trade equal value, I have to BUY.

That's not income.  That's EXCHANGE.

If I trade my corn sheller to you for a couple of goats, and we decide that's a fair trade, value for value, is that income?

If I trade my skill at fixing your garbage disposal for a home cooked meal, a seat at your dinner table for one meal, is that income?

If I trade my skill at repairing your computer for some pieces of paper which I can later trade for something else I want, and we agree the pieces of paper represent an equal value to my services, is that income?

If I trade those pieces of paper which represent the value of my labor to you to someone else for mowing my lawn, is that income?

All of those are equal exchanges, value for value, decided by the participants to be even up exchanges. How is that income? How have any of us gained by exchanging something we had for something we wanted more? If I give you a ten dollar bill and you give me two fives, is that income?

You're talking about the Underground Economy.  Yes, some income is untaxed that way.

Nobody's getting rich trading lawn-mowing for fresh eggs.

And that isn't dealt with this Fairtax nonsense, either.  The underground economy will STILL go on; and what you described is STILL not entered into taxation.

The only question the IRS would answer "no" to is trading a ten dollar bill for two fives. You need to fill out a Form 2016. Per diem is deductible, the rate depends on where you are. Mileage is deductible, as is the cost of a rental or lease vehicle. Company provided housing, if done for the convenience of the employer is not taxable. The only mileage taxable on a company car is for personal use, and if you are being told different, you need a new accountant.

Yes, in-kind transactions are now supposedly taxable.  Up until now there was no practical way to identify them.

And they'd STILL be bypassing the system under your scheme...which is not a panacea but just rearranging the deck chairs.

So who is it getting rich in the underground economy?  Drug dealers, maybe - except they're quickly outed, since 19-year-olds don't normally have $10,000 in walking-around money. 

And drug dealers would still be untaxed with your scheme.

[Smokin Joe]

Before I can trade equal value, I have to BUY.

That's not income.  That's EXCHANGE.

You're talking about the Underground Economy.  Yes, some income is untaxed that way.

Nobody's getting rich trading lawn-mowing for fresh eggs.

And that isn't dealt with this Fairtax nonsense, either.  The underground economy will STILL go on; and what you described is STILL not entered into taxation.

Yes, in-kind transactions are now supposedly taxable.  Up until now there was no practical way to identify them.

And they'd STILL be bypassing the system under your scheme...which is not a panacea but just rearranging the deck chairs.

So who is it getting rich in the underground economy?  Drug dealers, maybe - except they're quickly outed, since 19-year-olds don't normally have $10,000 in walking-around money. 

And drug dealers would still be untaxed with your scheme.

No. I'm talking about the exchange of my skill and time for something referred to as a paycheck. It is a piece of paper I can exchange for more pieces of paper I can exchange for goods or services. Exchange-exchange-exchange. Value for accepted value for accepted value.

How is that Income?

I traded something for those pieces of paper, something my employer and I agreed was of equal value.

All of the transactions I listed except the trading of a ten dollar bill for two five dollar bills are taxable under current tax laws. Barter is considered to produce income. If I cut down a tree, season and mill the wood, and manufacture a table, then agree to exchange that table for pieces of paper you have ("money") that I can exchange for other items at a time and place of my choosing, how have I "made money"? It was an exchange.

THis is the fundamental problem with the "income tax". It doesn't tax income it taxes exchanges.

[Bigun]

Another cute false graphic.

BUSINESS OWNERS are going to have to hire bookkeeping firms, separate escrow accounts for tax monies, tax lawyers to be sure they're in compliance with charging what they should, holding as they're required, NOT charging for exempted items, paying promptly, audits to support...

ANYTHING but easy.

If CORPORATE TAXES WERE ABOLISHED - which is a zero-sum game, since corporations are only legal forms and only individual people can actually be taxed - but if corporate taxes were abolished, most of the IRS would be useless and gone.  Most of the Tax Code would be redacted.

If a basic flat-tax were enacted, AND LIBERALS KEPT OUT OF THE TAX CODE, filing your taxes would take twenty minutes on a half-page form.

This Fairtax nonsense, claiming all this wonderful improvement, is akin to the Federal Government ordering school-crossing signs to be Day-Glo Green, now, instead of yellow.  NO meaningful difference, and a HUGE cost.

ABSOLUTELY nothing false about that graphic!

And YOU still don't know what you are talking about!
 
Fairtax =  F R E E D O M ! ! !