What forms of taxation are justified if any?

[Smokin Joe]

Stop it..Please. Get educated.

Do you think those companies got rid of child labor out of the goodness of their hearts?  Child labor began to decline as the labor unions grew and labor standards via gov't laws in general began improving favoring the worker, increasing the political power of working people and other social reformers to demand legislation regulating child labor.

Labor unions gave us the 5 day work work among numerous other things we take for granted today.


@Sanguine

As the labor unions grew, the politicians they backed increasingly passed laws which would eliminate competing labor pools. Among those pools were 'children' who worked. For those of us who grew up on farms doing work from the time we could do something useful, that meant that despite having run farm machinery, driven vehicles around the farm from the time we could reach the pedals and see to steer, and being perfectly physically capable of doing the job, we had to wait until we were 14 to get an outside paying job (even for the summer), we had to wait to get a driver's license, we had to wait to work more than 6 ft. off the ground (theoretically couldn't climb into a Combine Harvester until we were 18), etc.
The result of what started out to keep little waifs out of northeastern industrial mills and coal mines (and reduce competition for 'union' jobs) was that the work ethic in America went down the tubes. It is something instilled at an early age, effort brings reward, skills developed, etc., but the common venues for developing even the most basic of those skills have been denied to the tweens and teens today.

As for the 5 day work week, well, I have worked an 8 to 5 Monday through Friday job, once, for three months. I was a temporary employee hired to work for a week while someone went on vacation.
I left to go back to the 84 hour work week in the oil patch.

[Bigun]

As the labor unions grew, the politicians they backed increasingly passed laws which would eliminate competing labor pools. Among those pools were 'children' who worked. For those of us who grew up on farms doing work from the time we could do something useful, that meant that despite having run farm machinery, driven vehicles around the farm from the time we could reach the pedals and see to steer, and being perfectly physically capable of doing the job, we had to wait until we were 14 to get an outside paying job (even for the summer), we had to wait to get a driver's license, we had to wait to work more than 6 ft. off the ground (theoretically couldn't climb into a Combine Harvester until we were 18), etc.
The result of what started out to keep little waifs out of northeastern industrial mills and coal mines (and reduce competition for 'union' jobs) was that the work ethic in America went down the tubes. It is something instilled at an early age, effort brings reward, skills developed, etc., but the common venues for developing even the most basic of those skills have been denied to the tweens and teens today.

As for the 5 day work week, well, I have worked an 8 to 5 Monday through Friday job, once, for three months. I was a temporary employee hired to work for a week while someone went on vacation.
I left to go back to the 84 hour work week in the oil patch.

It's people like you who make millionaires out of folks like him!

[mirraflake]

As the labor unions grew, the politicians they backed increasingly passed laws which would eliminate competing labor pools. Among those pools were 'children' who worked. For those of us who grew up on farms doing work from the time we could do something useful, that meant that despite having run farm machinery, driven vehicles around the farm from the time we could reach the pedals and see to steer, and being perfectly physically capable of doing the job, we had to wait until we were 14 to get an outside paying job (even for the summer), we had to wait to get a driver's license, we had to wait to work more than 6 ft. off the ground (theoretically couldn't climb into a Combine Harvester until we were 18), etc.
The result of what started out to keep little waifs out of northeastern industrial mills and coal mines (and reduce competition for 'union' jobs) was that the work ethic in America went down the tubes. It is something instilled at an early age, effort brings reward, skills developed, etc., but the common venues for developing even the most basic of those skills have been denied to the tweens and teens today.

As for the 5 day work week, well, I have worked an 8 to 5 Monday through Friday job, once, for three months. I was a temporary employee hired to work for a week while someone went on vacation.
I left to go back to the 84 hour work week in the oil patch.

I agree. Early unions were and needed fine but they went overboard many years ago.  I worked on my uncles farm since age 11 or 12 and was driving the tractor at age 13 (not doing planting or serious stuff but pulled hay wagons back to the barn or mild bush hogging). Stacking hay bales at least 2 stories up in a rickety old barn that was near collapse on wobly hay piles in at least 110 degree heat with no ventilation.

I remember being hired for my first W-2 job at age 15 but had to wait 2 1/2 weeks to start until I was 16.

I have been self employed for 30+ years and have always worked 6-7 days per week. I go in every Sat for at least 2-3 hours and sometimes Sunday evening to prepare for Monday.

@Smokin Joe

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Limited government is not the same as no government. That's the difference between conservatism and anarchy.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

And India ain't anything like either anarchy or limited government. They were socialist for many years.

[Smokin Joe]

It's people like you who make millionaires out of folks like him!

As a wellsite geologist, I have helped make many people millionaires, quite a few several times over. It is part of my job. Some of them are really nice folks, little changed by wealth. Others... well, it is still part of the job.

Because I refused to enter into a conflict of interest and bid on mineral rights where I had inside information (in competition with the companies I had worked for), I wasn't one of them.  A competitor profited handsomely by forming a holding company with his wife the principal owner, and buying up leases in state lease sales using that sort of information.

Consider, too, at any time I could have been silent about something I discovered and 'saved' it for later, acquiring the rights to drill on a property where a 'dry hole' had been drilled would have been cheap, and I would have known exactly where to find oil. Nope. I wouldn't do that either. There are a couple of places I keep in mind, but the operator (Oil Company) was notified of those oil shows and encouraged to pursue them. If they haven't, at this point I would feel no qualms.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Each state making their own decisions would be a economy killer.  Companies would not be able to follow regulations from 50 different states.

So you are against freedom it appears.

You would have made a fine loyalist to King George back then.

I repeat : we lose our freedoms if the feds make all the rules.

[mirraflake]

So you are against freedom it appears.

You would have made a fine loyalist to King George back then.

I repeat : we lose our freedoms if the feds make all the rules.

I think the Fed gov't is too large but also think the notion that giving 100% control to states is bad also. One of the largest criticisms from companies is the different regulations each state enforce. There is a fine line that hurts all parties when it goes to far either way.

As I said, we own 3 companies and operate  right on the border and the different regulations we go through for each state is costly and time consuming.

@IsailedawayfromFR
@Fantom
@Bigun
@Sanguine

[Sanguine]

I think the Fed gov't is too large but also think the notion that giving 100% control to states is bad also. One of the largest criticisms from companies is the different regulations each state enforce. There is a fine line that hurts all parties when it goes to far either way.

As I said, we own 3 companies and operate  right on the border and the different regulations we go through for each state is costly and time consuming.

@IsailedawayfromFR
@Fantom
@Bigun
@Sanguine

Ah, but that's the beauty of the Constitution - all of the "control" belongs to the individual.   We give a little bit of that to the states and the federal government.  The states should have the largest portion of that delegated control, because, in theory at least, we can more easily bring our state in line that we can distant DC.  Likewise, if we don't like the way state Z is doing its job, we can move to state r.

And, all of the control doesn't go to states because some of it, a very clearly limited amount, is given to the feds.  It's beautiful. 

[mirraflake]

  Likewise, if we don't like the way state Z is doing its job, we can move to state r.

If you own a company that operates in all 50 states that is not possible.  Ask any person who operates a business across state lines and the various state regulations drive them crazy. Nothing is uniform. .  My wife and I spend a considerable amount of time trying to keep up with the changes so we are in compliance that we could be doing to expand business.

Not all laws the fed gov't create is anti business. Laws which create uniformality across state lines is a cost saver for business.

@Sanguine

[Fantom]

If you own a company that operates in all 50 states that is not possible.  Ask any person who operates a business across state lines and the various state regulations drive them crazy. Nothing is uniform. .  My wife and I spend a considerable amount of time trying to keep up with the changes so we are in compliance that we could be doing to expand business.

Not all laws the fed gov't create is anti business. Laws which create uniformality across state lines is a cost saver for business.

@Sanguine

Well, there is always China..One Rule, One Big Beautiful totalitarian government.. and you get to use child labor too.

Seems like nirvana for you.

[Smokin Joe]

Not all laws the fed gov't create is anti business. Laws which create uniformality across state lines is a cost saver for business.

@Sanguine

Establishing standards was another Federal duty, but those were for weights and measures. That way a pound in one state would weigh the same as a pound in another, provided one wasn't Troy.

Much of that has been lumped under a very broad definition of the interstate commerce clause, but that has been interpreted so broadly as to permit the Federal Government to regulate crops in your back yard, grown for personal consumption, because that allegedly affects interstate commerce.

One example of the bloat that has become the Federal Government. Those interpretations need to be revisited and compressed back into their original intent limits. With reasonable interstate cooperation, most of those (sometimes redundant) entities could be closed, and the duties devolve to the states or even eliminated.

I know what you are saying about all the different rules, but you have the option of not doing business in those states or going to a franchise model and marketing goods or services through that and letting the franchise holder take care of compliance issues.

[Dexter]

I think the Fed gov't is too large but also think the notion that giving 100% control to states is bad also.

The United States is huge. Many of our states are bigger than many European countries. That means culture and opinions are going to vary a lot. I think the amount of gridlock in Washington makes it obvious that something isn't working. We need to be able to move forward and make things better. If the states had more of the power that would be much more possible. It would also end the debate about whose ideology works and whose doesn't. When some states are thriving and others are falling apart the people in the states that are falling apart will demand change.

Also, I don't really care if Walmart loses some revenue because of more autonomous states. The top corporations in this country are turning everything into a monopoly. The free market suffers when there isn't an adequate amount of competition. I think we need to make big changes that give small businesses more opportunity to thrive. How can mom and pop ever compete with a company that has global presence? Something has to be done; small businesses are a key part of a healthy economy.

[Bigun]

The United States is huge. Many of our states are bigger than many European countries. That means culture and opinions are going to vary a lot. I think the amount of gridlock in Washington makes it obvious that something isn't working. We need to be able to move forward and make things better. If the states had more of the power that would be much more possible. It would also end the debate about whose ideology works and whose doesn't. When some states are thriving and others are falling apart the people in the states that are falling apart will demand change.

Also, I don't really care if Walmart loses some revenue because of more autonomous states. The top corporations in this country are turning everything into a monopoly. The free market suffers when there isn't an adequate amount of competition. I think we need to make big changes that give small businesses more opportunity to thrive. How can mom and pop ever compete with a company that has global presence? Something has to be done; small businesses are a key part of a healthy economy.

There is only one possible way to do that!  Get rid of the Marxist income tax and the IRS entirely and and replace it with a point of retail sale only sales tax on NEW goods and services! 

http://fairtax.org
 

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Not all laws the fed gov't create is anti business. Laws which create uniformality across state lines is a cost saver for business.

@Sanguine

Here's an outstanding example of federal regulations and cost savings for business.

'3. The FDA’s refusal to permit competition to the EpiPen is the cause, inexplicable, of Mylan’s price gouging.'

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/439666/epipen-scandal-mylan-heather-bresch-health-care-system-price-hikes-generic-drugs

[RetBobbyMI]

Repeal the 16th Amendment that gave the power to the Federal Government to tax individuals.  They would still have the ability to tax under the base constitution, but would have to go through the States, thus the states would have the ability to reject and overbearing Federal beast.

[Bigun]

Repeal the 16th Amendment that gave the power to the Federal Government to tax individuals.  They would still have the ability to tax under the base constitution, but would have to go through the States, thus the states would have the ability to reject and overbearing Federal beast.

EXACTLY what the fairtax effectively does!

[RetBobbyMI]

EXACTLY what the fairtax effectively does!

"Effectively" doesn't cut the mustard any more. Reliance on legislation is what got us Obamacare and the like.  Need Constitutional change.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

"Effectively" doesn't cut the mustard any more. Reliance on legislation is what got us Obamacare and the like.  Need Constitutional change.

Well, what really kept us with Obamacare is John Robert's SC.  That cemented bad legislation into law.

What will get us out of it will be its death thru attrition in its present death spiral.

The Constitution is fine as is.  What we need is adherence to it.  If a Congressman takes the oath of office and fails to keep it, then get rid of him.

[Oceander]

Depends on what you mean by "justified" - just as liberals' claims that "the rich" don't pay their "fair share" all depends on what they mean by "fair."

[Smokin Joe]

Well, what really kept us with Obamacare is John Robert's SC.  That cemented bad legislation into law.

What will get us out of it will be its death thru attrition in its present death spiral.

The Constitution is fine as is.  What we need is adherence to it.  If a Congressman takes the oath of office and fails to keep it, then get rid of him.

That rewrote law (Not the job of the SCOTUS, and unconstitutional)
Then, they ruled that a revenue measure, now called a "tax" was Constitutional even though it originated in the Senate, and not the House, where revenue measures are Constitutionally required to originate.

[austingirl]

There is only one possible way to do that!  Get rid of the Marxist income tax and the IRS entirely and and replace it with a point of retail sale only sales tax on NEW goods and services! 

http://fairtax.org

I am a big proponent of the Fair Tax. An income tax of any sort is immoral and ensures that working people fund the government and can never achieve wealth. A tax on consumption is equitable since it taxes spending which captures the cash economy including criminal enterprise. The rich and criminals buy stuff and could not escape contributing. Savings is rewarded. The prebate is a wonderful mechanism to protect the poor.

The IRS would be abolished and the lobbyists would leave K Street a ghost town. Without all the graft our congress critters would have no incentive to park themselves in DC for life. The federal government could return to the Enumerated Powers and we could return power to the States as intended by the Founders.

[Chosen Daughter]

I lean right but I' m also a realist conservative on some things but liberal on others. ..you anti gov't folks crack me up.. want to disband nearly every gov';t agency. You are the one who needs to take the chill pill.  Thank God you are just a small segment  of the population. This is no longer 1784.

Here is what limited gov't get's you. A friend on FB just came back  from India doing missionary work for 8 weeks. This is what much of the country looks like or nearly like.. A small segment of society is doing fine..the rest..just well sucks. (not her photo). Sorry I will stick to a larger gov't like we have  in the US rather than helter skelter though I think many gov't agnecies could be downsized and less laws.

@Fantom

Horrible.  Yet I wonder why.  Much of the world has outsourced business to India.  The governments in many countries are responsible.  And money going to the country is money going to corrupt governments.

I support flat tax.  A compassionate government that gives still but not a president who makes those decisions by himself.  We have huge wastes in government and giving money to corrupt governments in countries who are making poor choices is wrong.  It is much better to do the giving through the church than to trust the government.  That is why missionary work is so important.

[Bigun]

I am a big proponent of the Fair Tax. An income tax of any sort is immoral and ensures that working people fund the government and can never achieve wealth. A tax on consumption is equitable since it taxes spending which captures the cash economy including criminal enterprise. The rich and criminals buy stuff and could not escape contributing. Savings is rewarded. The prebate is a wonderful mechanism to protect the poor.

The IRS would be abolished and the lobbyists would leave K Street a ghost town. Without all the graft our congress critters would have no incentive to park themselves in DC for life. The federal government could return to the Enumerated Powers and we could return power to the States as intended by the Founders.

   and   

[Chosen Daughter]

  and   

Agree