Author Topic: What forms of taxation are justified if any?  (Read 14967 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2016, 07:37:18 pm »
EXACTLY what the fairtax effectively does!
Just piping up, but I'd be fine with it if the prebate was replaced by just not taxing the stuff the prebate is supposed to reimburse the taxes on. I think that would save a lot of staff, money, and cut down fraud.

I know you disagree, just getting my $.02 in.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2016, 08:11:53 pm »
Just piping up, but I'd be fine with it if the prebate was replaced by just not taxing the stuff the prebate is supposed to reimburse the taxes on. I think that would save a lot of staff, money, and cut down fraud.

I know you disagree, just getting my $.02 in.

I tend to agree with you there.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2016, 08:20:22 pm »
The rich and criminals buy stuff and could not escape contributing.

Well, sorta.

I lived under a consumption tax called VAT.  It caused all sorts of distortions in buying, such as duty free booms.  The rich and connected can still avoid in that manner
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Offline Bigun

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2016, 09:06:47 pm »
Just piping up, but I'd be fine with it if the prebate was replaced by just not taxing the stuff the prebate is supposed to reimburse the taxes on. I think that would save a lot of staff, money, and cut down fraud.

I know you disagree, just getting my $.02 in.

Who better than yourself to decide what your essentials are?  Some government hacks?  I don't  think so!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #104 on: September 04, 2016, 09:09:48 pm »
I tend to agree with you there.

The instant you include the first exemption you have opened the door wide open for all the K street slugs to come back and work their magic!  NO THANKS!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 09:10:24 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Sanguine

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2016, 09:18:20 pm »
The instant you include the first exemption you have opened the door wide open for all the K street slugs to come back and work their magic!  NO THANKS!

I was thinking along the lines of how sales taxes work in Texas.  But, you could be right.

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #106 on: September 04, 2016, 09:35:00 pm »
To the original question:

Taxation is of course not only moral but necessary.  The critical issue is, whether it is taxation by consent of those taxed; or tax levied from on high on the Little People.  Taxation for needs of general agreement; or taxation to take from some to give to others.  Government operations versus legal plunder.

Taxation on income or consumption; BUT NEVER BOTH.  Absent a bar to the Income Tax, the so-called Fairtax will morph quickly into a VAT - and we'll be at European levels of taxation and Democrat levels of government profligacy and waste.  The creative energy in the nation will move from wealth creation to rent-seeking from government.

Oh, and, shills:  Spare me the tub-thumping.  If you aren't careful, the Left is going to USE this Fairtax movement to give us that VAT.  PROCEED CAREFULLY.

Far more easily and with an equally-beneficial result, would be a flat income tax.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 09:36:13 pm by JustPassinThru »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #107 on: September 04, 2016, 09:38:03 pm »
Who better than yourself to decide what your essentials are?  Some government hacks?  I don't  think so!
We don't tax food here unless you sit down in a restaurant to eat. Don't tax food, medicine, medical care, housing, fuel. Nix the prebate. Then I can see it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #108 on: September 07, 2016, 03:04:38 pm »
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 03:05:01 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Sanguine

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #109 on: September 07, 2016, 03:08:41 pm »

Offline austingirl

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #110 on: September 07, 2016, 03:10:14 pm »


Great graphic!

Hitlery said yesterday she is going after the top 10% of taxpayers - she said "all those billionaires" will pay- trouble is the top 10% includes all those "billionaires" who make $238,000  year. Her post-concussive brain can't do the math.
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Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #111 on: September 07, 2016, 03:16:42 pm »


Asinine.  Whether you tax income or sales, YOU ARE TAXING ECONOMIC ACTIVITY.  Which END you tax it at, matters little in terms of effects on the economy.

The important aspect is whether the tax is equitable or "progressive" - meaning increased success is punished exponentially.  The Flat Tax avoids this.

Loopholes are put in by Congress.  They can similarly diddle with a POS tax - turn your wonderful panacea, the so-called Fairtax, and turn it, EASILY, into a VAT.  There we have TWO "progressive" taxes on our hands - and we have merchants and retailers snowed under with MORE paperwork.

The absolute worst outcome.  Increased costs and double the tax burden.

A flat tax takes only the will.  Which is not there and will not be there until the Political Elite Class is destroyed.  TERM LIMITS.

Which will not happen until we have an Article V CONVENTION OF STATE DELEGATES to amend the Constitution.

Offline Bigun

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« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 03:25:20 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #113 on: September 07, 2016, 03:23:15 pm »
Asinine.  Whether you tax income or sales, YOU ARE TAXING ECONOMIC ACTIVITY.  Which END you tax it at, matters little in terms of effects on the economy.

The important aspect is whether the tax is equitable or "progressive" - meaning increased success is punished exponentially.  The Flat Tax avoids this.

Loopholes are put in by Congress.  They can similarly diddle with a POS tax - turn your wonderful panacea, the so-called Fairtax, and turn it, EASILY, into a VAT.  There we have TWO "progressive" taxes on our hands - and we have merchants and retailers snowed under with MORE paperwork.

The absolute worst outcome.  Increased costs and double the tax burden.

A flat tax takes only the will.  Which is not there and will not be there until the Political Elite Class is destroyed.  TERM LIMITS.

Which will not happen until we have an Article V CONVENTION OF STATE DELEGATES to amend the Constitution.

Two points:

1. You have a functional VAT now in the form of the Corporate income tax. The Fairtax eliminates that!

2. ANY form of income tax must, of necessity, retain the thoroughly corrupted IRS!  That is unacceptable and the the fairtax gets rid of it entirely!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline austingirl

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #114 on: September 07, 2016, 03:25:12 pm »
Two points:

1. You have a functional VAT now in the form of the Corporate income tax. The Fairtax eliminates that!

2. ANY form of income tax must, of necessity, retain the thoroughly corrupted IRS!  That is unacceptable and the the fairtax gets rid of it entirely!

The IRS should be abolished. Any income tax is immoral.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #115 on: September 07, 2016, 03:26:06 pm »
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 03:28:25 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Dexter

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #116 on: September 07, 2016, 03:28:46 pm »
Two points:

1. You have a functional VAT now in the form of the Corporate income tax. The Fairtax eliminates that!

2. ANY form of income tax must, of necessity, retain the thoroughly corrupted IRS!  That is unacceptable and the the fairtax gets rid of it entirely!

Are there any estimates of how much money the fair tax would generate?
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Bigun

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #117 on: September 07, 2016, 03:30:26 pm »
Are there any estimates of how much money the fair tax would generate?

By law ANY replacement tax legislation must be shown to generate the same revenue as the current system.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Restored

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #118 on: September 07, 2016, 03:31:57 pm »
Actually, there will still be a need to police the taxing of goods and the collection of the proceeds. 
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Offline Bigun

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #119 on: September 07, 2016, 03:34:29 pm »
Actually, there will still be a need to police the taxing of goods and the collection of the proceeds.

Yes! By the states! For which they are fully compensated!  45 of them already have sales taxes in place along with the necessary tools to police them.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2016, 03:53:28 pm »
The IRS should be abolished. Any income tax is immoral.

Why?

How is taxing money on earning, immoral, whereas taxing it on spending, not?

The IMMORALITY of taxation is twofold.  First the PROGRESSIVE tax is not to raise money but to prevent accumulation of wealth, something the Left hates.  Like their current project, to CREATE...INFLATION...which erodes money earned.  They just want no one to succeed...since most of them have already succeed, they wish to bar the door.

Progressive taxation.  That's morally abhorrent.

Then...taxation, not for the costs of government, but FOR INCOME REDISTRIBUTION.  Either in handouts of cash or in services provided for allegedly-poor people, many of which this government IMPORTS.  Take money from the successful and give wealth in the form of food, housing, clothing vouchers, child care, medical care...yes, and checks...to others.

IMMORAL.  Robbing one to give to others.  Legalized plunder, and done to build political support.  Bastiat and de Tocqueville both warned of this; and here we are.

This Fairtax will not stop this, for the same reason we cannot stop it now.  Because the Political Class likes things like they are and want to keep them that way.  Should a Fairtax be passed, they will KEEP the Income Tax and make Fairtax a VAT.

Mark my words.  The problem is not how we collect taxes.  The problem is the Entrenched Political Class.

Offline Bigun

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2016, 04:17:28 pm »
Why?

How is taxing money on earning, immoral, whereas taxing it on spending, not?

The IMMORALITY of taxation is twofold.  First the PROGRESSIVE tax is not to raise money but to prevent accumulation of wealth, something the Left hates.  Like their current project, to CREATE...INFLATION...which erodes money earned.  They just want no one to succeed...since most of them have already succeed, they wish to bar the door.

Progressive taxation.  That's morally abhorrent.

Then...taxation, not for the costs of government, but FOR INCOME REDISTRIBUTION.  Either in handouts of cash or in services provided for allegedly-poor people, many of which this government IMPORTS.  Take money from the successful and give wealth in the form of food, housing, clothing vouchers, child care, medical care...yes, and checks...to others.

IMMORAL.  Robbing one to give to others.  Legalized plunder, and done to build political support.  Bastiat and de Tocqueville both warned of this; and here we are.

This Fairtax will not stop this, for the same reason we cannot stop it now.  Because the Political Class likes things like they are and want to keep them that way.  Should a Fairtax be passed, they will KEEP the Income Tax and make Fairtax a VAT.

Mark my words.  The problem is not how we collect taxes.  The problem is the Entrenched Political Class.

Foreword

THIS WAS, to be sure, "the home of the free and the land of the brave." Americans were free simply because the government was too weak to intervene in the private affairs of the people—it did not have the money to do so—and they were brave because a free people is always venturesome. The obligation of freedom is a willingness to stand on your own feet.
The early American wanted it that way. He was wary of government, especially one that was out of his reach. He had just rid himself of far away and self sufficient political establishment and he was not going to tolerate anything like it in his newly founded country. He recognized the need of some sort of government, to keep order, to protect him in the exercise of his rights, and to look after his interests in foreign lands. But, he wanted it understood that the powers of that government would be clearly defined and be limited; it could not go beyond specified limits. It was in recognition of this fear of centralized power that the Founding Fathers put into the Constitution — it never would have been ratified without them — very specific restraints on the federal government.

In other matters, the early American was willing to put his faith in home government, in a government of neighbors, in a government that one could keep one's eyes on and, if necessary, lay one's hands on. For that reason, the United States was founded as a Union of separate and autonomous commonwealths. The states could go in for any political experiments the folks might want to try out  — even socialism, for that matter  — but the federal government had no such leeway. After all, there were other states nearby, and if a citizen did not like the way one state government was managing its affairs, he could move across the border; that threat of competition would keep each state from going too far in making changes or in intervening in the lives of the citizens.

The Constitution, then, kept the federal government off balance and weak. And a weak government is the corollary of a strong people. The Sixteenth Amendment changed all that. In the first place, by enabling the federal government to put its hands into the pockets and pay envelopes of the people, it drew their allegiance away from their local governments. It made them citizens of the United States rather than of their respective states. Theft loyalty followed theft money, which was now taken from them not by their local representatives, over whom they had some control, but by the representatives of the other forty seven states.  They became subject to the will of the central government, and their state of subjection was emphasized by every increase in the income tax levies. The state governments likewise lost more and more of their autonomy.  Not only was their source of revenue being dried up by federal preemption, so that they had less and less for the social services a government should provide, but they were compelled in their extremity to apply to the central authorities for help. In so doing they necessarily gave up some of their independence. They found it difficult to stand up to the institution from which they had to beg grants in - aid. Furthermore, the
federal government was in position to demand subservience from the state governments as a condition for subventions. It has now become politically wise for governors, legislators, and Congressmen to "play ball" with the central government; they have been reduced to being procurement officers for the citizens who elect them. The economic power which the federal
government secured by the Sixteenth Amendment enabled it to bribe the state governments, as well as the citizens, into submission to its will.

In that way, the whole spirit of the Union and of its Constitution has been liquidated. Income taxation has made of the United States as completely centralized a nation as any that went before it; the very kind of establishment the Founding Fathers abhorred was set up by this simple change in the tax laws. This is no longer the "home of the free," and what bravery remains is traceable to a tradition that is fast losing ground. For those of us who still believe that freedom is best, the way is clear: we must concentrate on the correction of the mistake of 1913. The Sixteenth Amendment must be repealed. Nothing less will do. For it is only because it has this enormous revenue that the federal government is able to institute procedures that violate the individual's right to himself and his property; enforcement agencies must be paid. With the repeal of the amendment, the socialistic measures visited upon us these past thirty years will  vanish. The purchase of elections with federal money will no longer be possible. And the power and dignity of the home governments will be restored. This measure should be s upported by the governors and legislators of all the states. Every state in the Union now contributes in income taxes to the federal government more than it gets back in grants - in - aid; this is inevitable, because the cost of maintaining the huge federal machinery must come out of the taxes before the citizen can get anything. With the abolition of income taxation the states will be better able to serve its citizens, and because the state governments are closer and more responsive to the will of the people,  there is greater chance that the citizens will get their full dollar's worth in services. However, the principal argument for the repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment is that only in that way can freedom from an interventionist government be restored to the American people.

J. Bracken  Lee,
Governor of Utah

From https://mises.org/system/tdf/Income%20Tax%20Root%20of%20All%20Evil_4.pdf?file=1&type=document
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline austingirl

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #122 on: September 07, 2016, 04:24:54 pm »
Why?

How is taxing money on earning, immoral, whereas taxing it on spending, not?

The IMMORALITY of taxation is twofold.  First the PROGRESSIVE tax is not to raise money but to prevent accumulation of wealth, something the Left hates.  Like their current project, to CREATE...INFLATION...which erodes money earned.  They just want no one to succeed...since most of them have already succeed, they wish to bar the door.

Progressive taxation.  That's morally abhorrent.

Then...taxation, not for the costs of government, but FOR INCOME REDISTRIBUTION.  Either in handouts of cash or in services provided for allegedly-poor people, many of which this government IMPORTS.  Take money from the successful and give wealth in the form of food, housing, clothing vouchers, child care, medical care...yes, and checks...to others.

IMMORAL.  Robbing one to give to others.  Legalized plunder, and done to build political support.  Bastiat and de Tocqueville both warned of this; and here we are.

This Fairtax will not stop this, for the same reason we cannot stop it now.  Because the Political Class likes things like they are and want to keep them that way.  Should a Fairtax be passed, they will KEEP the Income Tax and make Fairtax a VAT.

Mark my words.  The problem is not how we collect taxes.  The problem is the Entrenched Political Class.

Any income tax puts the burden on the working class and that is wrong. The IRS is too powerful and is abused as a political tool. The government should not be privy to where I work and how much money I make.

The Fair Tax would pass only if the income tax were repealed- that is the whole point.
Principles matter. Words matter.

Offline Bigun

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #123 on: September 07, 2016, 04:37:24 pm »
Any income tax puts the burden on the working class and that is wrong. The IRS is too powerful and is abused as a political tool. The government should not be privy to where I work and how much money I make.

The Fair Tax would pass only if the income tax were repealed- that is the whole point.

“The tax which each individual is bound to pay ought to be certain, and not arbitrary. The time of payment, the manner of payment, the quantity to be paid, ought all to be clear and plain to the contributor, and to every other person, so that the tax payer is not put in the power of the tax gatherer.”

Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, 1776
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What forms of taxation are justified if any?
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2016, 04:42:18 pm »

It is a lovely graphic. Who is going to administer the prebates and prevent fraud, if not the IRS?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis