What forms of taxation are justified if any?

[JustPassinThru]

ABSOLUTELY nothing false about that graphic!

And YOU still don't know what you are talking about!

Yeah, one of us doesn't.
 

Fairtax =  F R E E D O M ! ! !

Idiocy.

You want to tell a small contractor who suddenly has to hire more bookkeepers and file more records, hold more money, keep more paperwork...that this is FREEDOM?  Bull SH_T it is!  It's a HUGE burden for small businesses!

The way to get the economy rolling is with SMALL BUSINESSES.  Reagan proved that, with simplified tax status for proprietary businesses. 

THIS IS THE OPPOSITE.  Onerous, expensive, huge liability.  It'll prevent a LOT of people who might go into business from doing so.

But you've got your panacea all at the ready...if we all put the deck chairs over HERE, then the Titanic won't be listing so much...

You want reform?  Abolish corporate taxes and go with a flat income tax.  AMAZINGLY simple, and it cannot be morphed into a VAT.

[Bigun]

Yeah, one of us doesn't.
 
Idiocy.

You want to tell a small contractor who suddenly has to hire more bookkeepers and file more records, hold more money, keep more paperwork...that this is FREEDOM?  Bull SH_T it is!  It's a HUGE burden for small businesses!

The way to get the economy rolling is with SMALL BUSINESSES.  Reagan proved that, with simplified tax status for proprietary businesses. 

THIS IS THE OPPOSITE.  Onerous, expensive, huge liability.  It'll prevent a LOT of people who might go into business from doing so.

But you've got your panacea all at the ready...if we all put the deck chairs over HERE, then the Titanic won't be listing so much...

You want reform?  Abolish corporate taxes and go with a flat income tax.  AMAZINGLY simple, and it cannot be morphed into a VAT.

NOT TRUE!  ALL of it!


It would be a BIG help if you would spend just a little time educating yourself on the matter.

[JustPassinThru]

I know what a point-of-sale tax is.

And I know who has to collect, account for, remit, and have verifications for all that tax collection.

SMALL BUSINESSMEN

You've got your fantasy.  Stick with it...everybody gotta believe in sumthin, I guess.

If we ever are so foolish as to get it, we'll be much-worse off.  Just as we are with most of the other egghead convoluted schemes cooked up by the Smart Set...

[Fantom]

Yeah, one of us doesn't.
 
Idiocy.

You want to tell a small contractor who suddenly has to hire more bookkeepers and file more records, hold more money, keep more paperwork...that this is FREEDOM?  Bull SH_T it is!  It's a HUGE burden for small businesses!

The way to get the economy rolling is with SMALL BUSINESSES.  Reagan proved that, with simplified tax status for proprietary businesses. 

THIS IS THE OPPOSITE.  Onerous, expensive, huge liability.  It'll prevent a LOT of people who might go into business from doing so.

But you've got your panacea all at the ready...if we all put the deck chairs over HERE, then the Titanic won't be listing so much...

You want reform?  Abolish corporate taxes and go with a flat income tax.  AMAZINGLY simple, and it cannot be morphed into a VAT.

Do you hire a bookkeeper to do your taxes now?

This small businessman does not. I find Turbotax quite capable...as well as my own planning.

If we  got rid of all taxes. And did a flat tax on net income..... that could be changed at whim of the next obama. Like our heath care.

Ted Cruz was right. Lets... "Vat" if you want to call it that. It broadens the tax base.. everyone should pay. If they can vote.

I'd go a bit further and put in place a Constitutional limit on that tax... only to be exceeded in times of total war.

Certainly would be less burdensome  than today's tax code for a small business.....like mine.

[Bigun]

Do you hire a bookkeeper to do your taxes now?

This small businessman does not. I find Turbotax quite capable...as well as my own planning.

If we  got rid of all taxes. And did a flat tax on net income..... that could be changed at whim of the next obama. Like our heath care.

Ted Cruz was right. Lets... "Vat" if you want to call it that. It broadens the tax base.. everyone should pay. If they can vote.

I'd go a bit further and put in place a Constitutional limit on that tax... only to be exceeded in times of total war.

Certainly would be less burdensome  than today's tax code for a small business.....like mine.

"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption, that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit; which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed, that is, an extension of the revenue. When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty, that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four." If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.

Impositions of this kind usually fall under the denomination of indirect taxes, and must for a long time constitute the chief part of the revenue raised in this country. Those of the direct kind, which principally relate to land and buildings, may admit of a rule of apportionment. Either the value of land, or the number of the people, may serve as a standard. The state of agriculture and the populousness of a country have been considered as nearly connected with each other. And, as a rule, for the purpose intended, numbers, in the view of simplicity and certainty, are entitled to a preference. In every country it is a herculean task to obtain a valuation of the land; in a country imperfectly settled and progressive in improvement, the difficulties are increased almost to impracticability. The expense of an accurate valuation is, in all situations, a formidable objection. In a branch of taxation where no limits to the discretion of the government are to be found in the nature of things, the establishment of a fixed rule, not incompatible with the end, may be attended with fewer inconveniences than to leave that discretion altogether at large."

From Federalist 21  http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa21.htm

There was no anti-federalist response because they ALL agreed!

[JustPassinThru]

Do you hire a bookkeeper to do your taxes now?

Yes.  Because of all the convoluted deductions and allowances specific to my industry.

This small businessman does not. I find Turbotax quite capable...as well as my own planning.

Turbotax cannot handle DAILY CASH RECEIPTS, and then SPECIAL BANK ACCOUNTS for TAX RECEIPTS.  Because co-mingling tax monies with company funds, is illegal and will be so - if not immediately, then the first time a business owner dips into tax account monies.

If we  got rid of all taxes. And did a flat tax on net income..... that could be changed at whim of the next obama. Like our heath care.

Yes.  The problem is systemic.  Which is why we need TERM LIMITS to destroy the Elite Political lifer-class.  And THAT will only happen with an Article V Convention.

Rearranging the deck chairs, is just wasted energy.

Ted Cruz was right. Lets... "Vat" if you want to call it that. It broadens the tax base.. everyone should pay. If they can vote.

Europe has that.  It's a deep, crushing tax that saps the wealth out of the productive class, and punishes the creation or sale of anything productive.  Tracking the tax liability is also a nightmare.

I don't recall Cruz endorsing a VAT, but if he did, HE IS WRONG.

I'd go a bit further and put in place a Constitutional limit on that tax... only to be exceeded in times of total war.

Certainly would be less burdensome  than today's tax code for a small business.....like mine.

I'm ready to agree with ANY cap on taxation.  But given the Left's track-record, given the Political Class's fondness for jacking taxes to the point of collapse or revolt...any total overhaul will be perverted.

And as I'm trying to say, it will be onerous and costly and expose us to other risks of game-playing by the Elites.

First, keep it transparent.  A VAT fails.  This Fairtax sets the stage to morph into a VAT.  A flat-rate tax is very-easy and plain to understand - and to see when the Elites are up to their normal tricks.

[RetBobbyMI]

There is NO tax that is fair to everyone.  The 16th Amendment should be repealed so the federal government has no ability to tax individuals directly.  The federal government should, as it was originally framed, only be able to levy taxes against the states, proportional to the population.  That would give states the power over the federal purse and limit it to those enumerated responsibilities, not everything under the sun as it is now.

[Fantom]

Yes.  Because of all the convoluted deductions and allowances specific to my industry.

Turbotax cannot handle DAILY CASH RECEIPTS, and then SPECIAL BANK ACCOUNTS for TAX RECEIPTS.  Because co-mingling tax monies with company funds, is illegal and will be so - if not immediately, then the first time a business owner dips into tax account monies.

Yes.  The problem is systemic.  Which is why we need TERM LIMITS to destroy the Elite Political lifer-class.  And THAT will only happen with an Article V Convention.

Rearranging the deck chairs, is just wasted energy.

Europe has that.  It's a deep, crushing tax that saps the wealth out of the productive class, and punishes the creation or sale of anything productive.  Tracking the tax liability is also a nightmare.

I don't recall Cruz endorsing a VAT, but if he did, HE IS WRONG.

I'm ready to agree with ANY cap on taxation.  But given the Left's track-record, given the Political Class's fondness for jacking taxes to the point of collapse or revolt...any total overhaul will be perverted.

And as I'm trying to say, it will be onerous and costly and expose us to other risks of game-playing by the Elites.

First, keep it transparent.  A VAT fails.  This Fairtax sets the stage to morph into a VAT.  A flat-rate tax is very-easy and plain to understand - and to see when the Elites are up to their normal tricks.

Please do me, and everyone else, a favor and not do a "nested " rebuttal.  It quickly becomes a nested within nested nightmare to follow.  Just be yourself and reply with one full reply as you will.

As such.

Last first as is my wont.

A flat tax is transparent until it is worked over with exemptions and loopholes as the tax today is. This is the same failing a vat or any other tax has. It all can change at the whim of government...obama/clinton...whomever.

Only a Constitutional limit might stop that.

Personally for freedoms sake..I would rid of us any personal income tax. Even corporate taxes. Instead I would impose "use" taxation. Need a road..buy gas and pay a tax needed to build and maintain roads. Want AMtrak.......same same.

Now as too Military and a few other real needs. A Point of sale tax would work. This broadens the base.. all pay.

And yes my man Ted put forth a variation of a vat tax. In that business was taxed for all income not related to expenses. Material costs, overheads.. yada yada. Notably it did not expense wages as a cost of business. That is wrong in my opine. But the level of tax was low.

Now one can say that such a tax can be raised at whim.. but such is true of any tax. Unless constrained by Constitutional means..Amendments.

Which leaves your first point, Turbo Tax is not stand alone, it works with many accounting applications.. as you well know, like Quikbooks. Which address your concerns about Turbotax... and if you are so big that you are not well served by those.... you are not a small businessman.

[Fantom]

There is NO tax that is fair to everyone.  The 16th Amendment should be repealed so the federal government has no ability to tax individuals directly.  The federal government should, as it was originally framed, only be able to levy taxes against the states, proportional to the population.  That would give states the power over the federal purse and limit it to those enumerated responsibilities, not everything under the sun as it is now.

 

[JustPassinThru]

Please do me, and everyone else, a favor ...

The favor I'll do is ignore you.  You don't wanna discuss; you want to thump the tub.

You are looking for a Magic Bullet.  This is no magic bullet - it's going to make things MORE complicated, not less, and I can guarantee you it's not going to replace the Income Tax.

And once in place it will quickly be changed into a crushing, punishing VAT tax.

But the fantasy remains that somehow it will be so much more magic by taking money at one end, than from the other end.  Ignoring the horrific logistics.

Okay.  Your fantasy.  We are being made now to live with all sorts of consequences of stupid fantasies - like the one where putting alcohol in gasoline stops Glow Bull Warming; or that we can just stop using coal and rely on windmills for electric power; or that by making all these little stores collect Federal tax at the cash till, it'll all be so much better.

Thump on.  I don't think either your plan or mine will get a fair hearing, anyway...

[Bigun]

There is NO tax that is fair to everyone.  The 16th Amendment should be repealed so the federal government has no ability to tax individuals directly.  The federal government should, as it was originally framed, only be able to levy taxes against the states, proportional to the population.  That would give states the power over the federal purse and limit it to those enumerated responsibilities, not everything under the sun as it is now.

But there sure is a proposal that would make things MUCH more fair for everyone!

[DiogenesLamp]

Do you believe there should be no taxes? Some taxes? What's ideal? How do we balance it with needing a military, infrastructure and a working government? Even without corruption public schools and education will still cost a lot of money. What about science and space exploration? Is there any room for those?

All taxes,  (Federal, State, and Local)  should not exceed 10%,   except in cases of dire emergency such as War. 


The government has no business demanding more than God. 

[Smokin Joe]

All taxes,  (Federal, State, and Local)  should not exceed 10%,   except in cases of dire emergency such as War. 


The government has no business demanding more than God.

I won't argue with the concept, and I agree, a tithe for Jesus, a tithe for Caeser, the rest for me.

However, we have been at a 'state of emergency' almost continuously since WWII, and nearly as many years at war. Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, the "Cold War", Kuwait (GWI), Libyan intervention, Bosnia/Kosovo, Somalia, 9/11 and GWII Iraq, Afghanistan, to name a few.

Look at a full list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Welcome to the #Internet where everyone is an armchair economist.