Author Topic: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out  (Read 27381 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #225 on: August 06, 2016, 09:47:15 am »
Well.... I am somewhat anti-legal immigration as well since I don't support bringing in a bazillion Muslim refugees into this country that would be considered "legal".  I've gone from "Seal the borders and enforce current laws." to "Enough is enough already.  Stick to the lottery system."  I guess I'm fairly anti-immigration period these days.
We need to assimilate what we have. We aren't doing that so well, it seems, and are losing ground with identity politics effectively making foreigners out of people born here. Time to lose the hyphens and be "American" first.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #226 on: August 07, 2016, 07:51:20 am »
We need to assimilate what we have. We aren't doing that so well, it seems, and are losing ground with identity politics effectively making foreigners out of people born here. Time to lose the hyphens and be "American" first.

Until 1965...the US had never gone through this kind of continuous immigration year after year...decade after decade. This 50 year stretch is the longest in our history.

Youre right...we do need a pause to allow the people who have immigrated here to assimilate.

But then if we did that and did our best to rid the country of this hyphenated crap we have now...the Dems wouldn't have any voters.

They rely on balkanized groups of people to vote D.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #227 on: August 07, 2016, 07:59:23 am »
Until 1965...the US had never gone through this kind of continuous immigration year after year...decade after decade. This 50 year stretch is the longest in our history.

Youre right...we do need a pause to allow the people who have immigrated here to assimilate.

But then if we did that and did our best to rid the country of this hyphenated crap we have now...the Dems wouldn't have any voters.

They rely on balkanized groups of people to vote D.

From 1776 until WWI, we had an unbroken flood of immigrants to our shores.  First the Germans, then Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans.  Chinese and Japanese, too.

In 1910, the US population was 92 million.  Immigrants made up 13.5 million of them.

In 2016, we total over 300 million.  Total immigrants are just 31 million.

To be comparable to 1910, we'd need to see roughly 40 million immigrants in our country.

Offline r9etb

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #228 on: August 07, 2016, 01:06:46 pm »
From 1776 until WWI, we had an unbroken flood of immigrants to our shores.  First the Germans, then Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans.  Chinese and Japanese, too.

In 1910, the US population was 92 million.  Immigrants made up 13.5 million of them.

In 2016, we total over 300 million.  Total immigrants are just 31 million.

To be comparable to 1910, we'd need to see roughly 40 million immigrants in our country.

You make a good point -- one that the descendants of immigrants who complain about immigrants would do well to remember.

The difference this time has more to do with the culture into which the immigrants are moving.  The expectations of work and assimilation seem to be much lower than ever before. 

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #229 on: August 07, 2016, 01:18:34 pm »
You make a good point -- one that the descendants of immigrants who complain about immigrants would do well to remember.

The difference this time has more to do with the culture into which the immigrants are moving.  The expectations of work and assimilation seem to be much lower than ever before.

This quote is from a letter written in 1773 by none other than Benjamin Franklin to someone named Peter Collison on the topic of the support for the poor in the colonies.

Quote
"I am perfectly of your mind, that measures of great Temper are necessary with the Germans: and am not without Apprehensions, that thro’ their indiscretion or Ours, or both, great disorders and inconveniences may one day arise among us; Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation, and as Ignorance is often attended with Credulity when Knavery would mislead it, and with Suspicion when Honesty would set it right; and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, ’tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain. Their own Clergy have very little influence over the people; who seem to take an uncommon pleasure in abusing and discharging the Minister on every trivial occasion. Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it; and as Kolben says of the young Hottentots, that they are not esteemed men till they have shewn their manhood by beating their mothers, so these seem to think themselves not free, till they can feel their liberty in abusing and insulting their Teachers. Thus they are under no restraint of Ecclesiastical Government; They behave, however, submissively enough at present to the Civil Government which I wish they may continue to do: For I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties; Few of their children in the Country learn English; they import many Books from Germany; and of the six printing houses in the Province, two are entirely German, two half German half English, and but two entirely English; They have one German News-paper, and one half German. Advertisements intended to be general are now printed in Dutch and English; the Signs in our Streets have inscriptions in both languages, and in some places only German: They begin of late to make all their Bonds and other legal Writings in their own Language, which (though I think it ought not to be) are allowed good in our Courts, where the German Business so encreases that there is continual need of Interpreters; and I suppose in a few years they will be also necessary in the Assembly, to tell one half of our Legislators what the other half say; In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious."

I'll grant you that today's immigration issues are different than in the old colonial days, but the feelings about  immigrants have never really changed.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #230 on: August 07, 2016, 01:23:46 pm »
What a way to ruin what was a great thread!  I was enjoying the dream of Trump getting out of the race and the ponderance of who would replace him.  I was sad to see the thread go off topic as it did.

I'm with chae.  I am NOT a Yeb! fan due to his pro-illegal immigration stance, but I'd crawl over dead, oozing bodies and burning hellfire to get to the ballot box to vote for him over Trump.  IMO, he is a good, but misguided man. He's not CRAZY INSANE at least.  He's not the Hildabeast.

For those that are going to claim I am a racist because I am vehemently and unashamedly anti-illegal immigration, you might be surprised at my family's ethnicity.  ;) So please cut the "heritage" and "ethnicity" crap.  Who cares?  We are Americans.  Can we get past this please?

 :beer:
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Offline r9etb

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #231 on: August 07, 2016, 02:02:17 pm »
I'll grant you that today's immigration issues are different than in the old colonial days, but the feelings about  immigrants have never really changed.

True enough; however, the expectations about same certainly have.

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #232 on: August 07, 2016, 02:27:18 pm »
We need to assimilate what we have. We aren't doing that so well, it seems, and are losing ground with identity politics effectively making foreigners out of people born here. Time to lose the hyphens and be "American" first.

WE don't need to assimilate anything!  THEY are the only ones who can do that and THEY desperately need to be made to do it or get the hell out!

“There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americans... The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of it continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities.”

 Theodore Roosevelt, October 12, 1915

Not a big Teddy Roosevelt fan by any means but on this issue he was ENTIRELY right!


« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 02:28:25 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #233 on: August 07, 2016, 02:31:32 pm »
If we didn't change as well...

...there'd never have been Italian food like pizza for football.

And no pastrami sandwiches to serve the menches.

(and so on and so for)

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #234 on: August 07, 2016, 03:06:19 pm »
WE don't need to assimilate anything!  THEY are the only ones who can do that and THEY desperately need to be made to do it or get the hell out!

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Hoodat

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #235 on: August 07, 2016, 06:12:53 pm »
The American Dream would be dead today if not for the foreign-born bringing it here.  People with parents, grandparents, and great grandparents born here have no concept of how valuable freedom of opportunity really is.  It is the ones emigrating here to escape lands where such freedom does not exist who keep the American Dream alive.

I am one of the more pro-immigrant persons you will come across.  However, under no circumstances do you give immigrants free stuff.  If they choose to make the inroads towards citizenship, then maybe perhaps we can talk about utilizing public schools.  But otherwise, it should be the same as it was on immigrants coming here during the 19th century.

And if you get caught doing something illegal (which includes being here illegally), then you forfeit your opportunity to live here.
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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #236 on: August 07, 2016, 06:15:28 pm »
Just checking in....and see you're all still enjoying the mushrooms.      :whistle:
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #237 on: August 07, 2016, 06:21:51 pm »
Just checking in....and see you're all still enjoying the mushrooms.      :whistle:

Not us, but there was a recent sighting of the campaign staff in the Trump Clown Car........

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #238 on: August 07, 2016, 06:22:57 pm »
This quote is from a letter written in 1773 by none other than Benjamin Franklin to someone named Peter Collison on the topic of the support for the poor in the colonies.

I'll grant you that today's immigration issues are different than in the old colonial days, but the feelings about  immigrants have never really changed.
Well, the fundamental issues are the same, too. Language and cultural barriers will exist until assimilation occurs. During that process there is that cross cultural carryover that has increasingly separated American from English, as terms are added to the American Language while those who came here learn American, too. keeping in mind:
Quote
The Americans and the English are the only two peoples on the Earth separated by a common language

(George Bernard Shaw)

But there is a warning there, be it written in High German or English or Spanish, that the very concepts of Rights for all and none being above the law most directly descend from the Magna Carta, and that those ideas were English indeed, despite deeper philosophical roots. In practice, they did not come from Spain, France, Italy, Mexico, or Germany, but England, and are best understood viscerally if one understands the semantic nuances of that language. Americans took that one step farther, based on the unalienable equality among men, and denied the concept of a monarchy.

Without that conceptual background, difficult to translate into another language at best, the seminal ideas in this Republic are simply not conveyed. While American culture has definitely had its pop culture waves of infatuation with other cultures, those pass, and the fundamental concepts of Liberty have remained, adorned with new spices, cuisine, dances or modes of dress or decor, but still decidedly English if one raises the tablecloth or drapes.  The peril is inherent in forgetting those cultural roots, or worse, not passing them on as a fundamental part of being 'American'. As a people we have drawn those elements we find favorable from a dozen or more cultures, but the philosophical roots that permitted the Republic in the first place must be preserved or the America of our forefathers will fail.
Now, to wander off-topic,
For America to lead the way requires a return to the concept of American Excellence. After all, we have taken the best 'heretics' of science and engineering and done marvelous wonders. We have rebelled, excelled, and unleashed those wonders and the minds which created them in a culture infused with Liberty and as a result rose from an upstart to world power in less than two centuries. We can, given that Liberty, continue to be prominent, if not preeminent in the world.
The patently insane attempts to adopt the Marxist and Socialist ways of nations which have failed dismally as cultures, economies, as nations, no matter what language was spoken there are not for a leading nation among nations, but for those who would follow. It takes Liberty to lead.

This is why no government based on more or even 'more efficient' government of overarching scope is suitable to American Excellence: It is our Liberty which made America great, and only that Liberty can keep America Great.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sitetest

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #239 on: August 07, 2016, 06:36:12 pm »
The American Dream would be dead today if not for the foreign-born bringing it here.  People with parents, grandparents, and great grandparents born here have no concept of how valuable freedom of opportunity really is.  It is the ones emigrating here to escape lands where such freedom does not exist who keep the American Dream alive.

I am one of the more pro-immigrant persons you will come across.  However, under no circumstances do you give immigrants free stuff.  If they choose to make the inroads towards citizenship, then maybe perhaps we can talk about utilizing public schools.  But otherwise, it should be the same as it was on immigrants coming here during the 19th century.

And if you get caught doing something illegal (which includes being here illegally), then you forfeit your opportunity to live here.

Can there be a middle position?  Can I take it?  My grandparents were immigrants,  so, I'm kinda partial to immigrants.  But, much of the world would like to come here.  Now.  Today.  And we would no longer be who and what we are if everyone left home and came to America, all at once.  And besides, a country has a right to borders, to control its borders, and to control who immigrates to it, and how many immigrate.

The current problems arise from the fact that, as a country, we've set legal limits on how many folks immigrate each year, resulting in years-long lines to immigrate legally.  So, folks hop the line, and come here illegally.

The solution is not to grant amnesty to those here illegally, or to send them home and then allow them to legally come in, undercutting our immigration limits.  The solution is to control the borders, generally deport illegals when they come into contact with government officials, deny illegals any government-paid benefits, and regulate who, and how many folks may come to live here as is good for the USA.

We allow roughly a million legal immigrants per year, and that seems roughly correct.  Whether it should be a little higher or lower is legitimately a question for the legislature.  Everyone else can get in line.
Former Republican.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #240 on: August 07, 2016, 06:44:55 pm »
Well, the fundamental issues are the same, too. Language and cultural barriers will exist until assimilation occurs. During that process there is that cross cultural carryover that has increasingly separated American from English, as terms are added to the American Language while those who came here learn American, too. keeping in mind:
But there is a warning there, be it written in High German or English or Spanish, that the very concepts of Rights for all and none being above the law most directly descend from the Magna Carta, and that those ideas were English indeed, despite deeper philosophical roots. In practice, they did not come from Spain, France, Italy, Mexico, or Germany, but England, and are best understood viscerally if one understands the semantic nuances of that language. Americans took that one step farther, based on the unalienable equality among men, and denied the concept of a monarchy.

Without that conceptual background, difficult to translate into another language at best, the seminal ideas in this Republic are simply not conveyed. While American culture has definitely had its pop culture waves of infatuation with other cultures, those pass, and the fundamental concepts of Liberty have remained, adorned with new spices, cuisine, dances or modes of dress or decor, but still decidedly English if one raises the tablecloth or drapes.  The peril is inherent in forgetting those cultural roots, or worse, not passing them on as a fundamental part of being 'American'. As a people we have drawn those elements we find favorable from a dozen or more cultures, but the philosophical roots that permitted the Republic in the first place must be preserved or the America of our forefathers will fail.
Now, to wander off-topic,
For America to lead the way requires a return to the concept of American Excellence. After all, we have taken the best 'heretics' of science and engineering and done marvelous wonders. We have rebelled, excelled, and unleashed those wonders and the minds which created them in a culture infused with Liberty and as a result rose from an upstart to world power in less than two centuries. We can, given that Liberty, continue to be prominent, if not preeminent in the world.
The patently insane attempts to adopt the Marxist and Socialist ways of nations which have failed dismally as cultures, economies, as nations, no matter what language was spoken there are not for a leading nation among nations, but for those who would follow. It takes Liberty to lead.

This is why no government based on more or even 'more efficient' government of overarching scope is suitable to American Excellence: It is our Liberty which made America great, and only that Liberty can keep America Great.

Classy post.   Some of the best Americans I know are Anglophiles.   We're a branch off the English root,  with respect to the seminal properties of natural-born rights, respect for private property, and a legacy of common law. 
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #241 on: August 07, 2016, 06:47:31 pm »
WE don't need to assimilate anything!  THEY are the only ones who can do that and THEY desperately need to be made to do it or get the hell out!

“There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americans... The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of it continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities.”

 Theodore Roosevelt, October 12, 1915

Not a big Teddy Roosevelt fan by any means but on this issue he was ENTIRELY right!
By assimilation, I mean they need to be infused with and become part of the culture of their adopted nation, otherwise, they don't want to be Americans. If that's the case, go home and fix what's  broke.
At one time the people who came here came here to BE American. Not hyphenated American, but American. Not to pillage our economy and send the money elsewhere, not to be fugitives within this country, but with the goal of becoming citizens, and of living in a house on those streets paved with gold. Tremendous contributions to American excellence have been made by people who came here from other nations, or their first generation of children.

Our space program and one leg of the nuclear triad, even the triad itself, are partly the result of people who came here, worked in and for America, and enjoyed the freedom thereof. We probably could have done the same thing without them, but it would have taken longer. We attracted the best.

When we assimilate people, we make them part of us, and that includes teaching them our ways--without that they will not become Americans, and will not be part of what America (conceptually) is.
 
If you have read other posts I have made, the first step to maintaining/regaining American Excellence is losing the hyphens and being Americans first. I even take issue with the term "Native American", because anyone born here is a native. Why is there a study of "Black" history, when it is all part of American History. History suffers from the balkanizing effect of such distinctions, and becomes distorted by the fisheye lens placed thus on any specific race, ethnicity, gender, or former nationality at the expense of those others it interacted with to influence the future.

We need to be Americans first. If those who leave elsewhere and come here do not desire to be Americans, better they stay where they are and try to adopt the things about America that attract them within their own cultures, rather than come here and try to convert ours.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #242 on: August 07, 2016, 06:54:59 pm »
By assimilation, I mean they need to be infused with and become part of the culture of their adopted nation, otherwise, they don't want to be Americans. If that's the case, go home and fix what's  broke.
At one time the people who came here came here to BE American. Not hyphenated American, but American. Not to pillage our economy and send the money elsewhere, not to be fugitives within this country, but with the goal of becoming citizens, and of living in a house on those streets paved with gold. Tremendous contributions to American excellence have been made by people who came here from other nations, or their first generation of children.

Our space program and one leg of the nuclear triad, even the triad itself, are partly the result of people who came here, worked in and for America, and enjoyed the freedom thereof. We probably could have done the same thing without them, but it would have taken longer. We attracted the best.

When we assimilate people, we make them part of us, and that includes teaching them our ways--without that they will not become Americans, and will not be part of what America (conceptually) is.
 
If you have read other posts I have made, the first step to maintaining/regaining American Excellence is losing the hyphens and being Americans first. I even take issue with the term "Native American", because anyone born here is a native. Why is there a study of "Black" history, when it is all part of American History. History suffers from the balkanizing effect of such distinctions, and becomes distorted by the fisheye lens placed thus on any specific race, ethnicity, gender, or former nationality at the expense of those others it interacted with to influence the future.

We need to be Americans first. If those who leave elsewhere and come here do not desire to be Americans, better they stay where they are and try to adopt the things about America that attract them within their own cultures, rather than come here and try to convert ours.

We are on the same page for sure!   :beer:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #243 on: August 07, 2016, 06:58:57 pm »
We are on the same page for sure!   :beer:
I thought so! :beer: :patriot:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline livius

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #244 on: August 07, 2016, 08:02:12 pm »
But there is a warning there, be it written in High German or English or Spanish, that the very concepts of Rights for all and none being above the law most directly descend from the Magna Carta, and that those ideas were English indeed, despite deeper philosophical roots. In practice, they did not come from Spain, France, Italy, Mexico, or Germany, but England, and are best understood viscerally if one understands the semantic nuances of that language. Americans took that one step farther, based on the unalienable equality among men, and denied the concept of a monarchy.

Actually, Jefferson - who was the architect, more than any other, of our system and our revolution - was very influenced by Catholic natural law teaching and the writings of the Spanish Jesuit Suarez, who said that a people was justified in overthrowing a tyrant and that a system had to provide guarantees for the citizens.

The Magna Carta (which means the Great Charter) was typical of many charters of the time, a document that set forth the rights and responsibilities of the local nobility and population vis a vis the king  - that is, in terms of taxes, military service, limits of Royal and local powers, etc. These were called feudos in Spain, but they existed in other states as well.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #245 on: August 07, 2016, 08:31:08 pm »
Actually, Jefferson - who was the architect, more than any other, of our system and our revolution - was very influenced by Catholic natural law teaching and the writings of the Spanish Jesuit Suarez, who said that a people was justified in overthrowing a tyrant and that a system had to provide guarantees for the citizens.

The Magna Carta (which means the Great Charter) was typical of many charters of the time, a document that set forth the rights and responsibilities of the local nobility and population vis a vis the king  - that is, in terms of taxes, military service, limits of Royal and local powers, etc. These were called feudos in Spain, but they existed in other states as well.
Thanks! I'll check out what Suarez had to say on the subject.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #246 on: August 07, 2016, 08:51:24 pm »
Actually, Jefferson - who was the architect, more than any other, of our system and our revolution - was very influenced by Catholic natural law teaching and the writings of the Spanish Jesuit Suarez, who said that a people was justified in overthrowing a tyrant and that a system had to provide guarantees for the citizens.

The Magna Carta (which means the Great Charter) was typical of many charters of the time, a document that set forth the rights and responsibilities of the local nobility and population vis a vis the king  - that is, in terms of taxes, military service, limits of Royal and local powers, etc. These were called feudos in Spain, but they existed in other states as well.
From Britannica: (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Francisco-Suarez)
Quote
At the request of Pope Paul V and others, he wrote apologetic works on the nature of the Christian state. Among them were De Virtute et Statu Religionis (1608–09) and Defensio Fidei Catholicae (1613), opposing Anglican theologians who defended the claim of kings to rule as God’s earthly representatives. This theory, the divine right of kings, was advanced in England at the time by James I, who subsequently burned Suárez’ Defensio on the steps of St. Paul’s Cathedral in London. On the question of man’s ability to effect his own salvation by his works, Suárez, in his De Vera Intelligentia Auxilii Efficacis (1605, pub. 1655), supported the view of the Congruist movement, which held that God gave man sufficient grace to achieve the virtuous conduct congruent to, or in harmony with, his own will.

Suárez expounded his political theory and philosophy of law in De Legibus (1612; “On Laws”) as well as in the Defensio. Having refuted the divine-right theory of kingly rule, he declared that the people themselves are the original holders of political authority; the state is the result of a social contract to which the people consent. Arguing for the natural rights of the human individual to life, liberty, and property, he rejected the Aristotelian notion of slavery as the natural condition of certain men. He criticized most of the practices of Spanish colonization in the Indies in his De Bello et de Indis (“On War and the Indies”). The islands of the Indies he viewed as sovereign states legally equal to Spain as members of a worldwide community of nations.


This may explain how Jefferson (as had many others) discarded the 'Divine Right of Kings'. A tumultuous time for Britain, and the Church, and one which directly affected my ancestors who got their land grant in the Maryland colony in 1641 during the reign of Charles I, who was Catholic. One of my ancestors owned a Jesuit Priest during the Protestant Reformation in Maryland (a colony founded by Catholics for freedom of religion), which made the Priest the property of the Manor Lord, and untouchable under English Common Law. The priest purchased his freedom back from my ancestor after things had settled down.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out
« Reply #247 on: August 07, 2016, 09:20:56 pm »
We are on the same page for sure!   :beer:

Smokin' Joe said "we need to assimilate them", to which you responded that "WE don't need to assimilate anything", which is absurd, because when it comes to the action of assimilation, we can either assimilate someone, or be assimilated by them.

So Joe was right when he said that we need to assimilate them into our culture, because the other option is not acceptable.

Having said that, assimilation has never meant that the group being assimilated completely loses their cultural identity. They blend into the general American culture and add unique traits to it so that some of their cultural origins become ingrained into Americana.

Everyone uses the term "melting pot" to describe the American experience, I liken it more to a tapestry than a pot.

Mexican and Jewish foods, Italian holidays and German culture still very visible in much of the heartland, all of it delivered in an English language heavily influenced by a dozen tongues and innumerable dialects.

The American tapestry.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx