Odyssey of a NeverTrumper

[RoosGirl]

But to RoosGirl's point.

Sometimes overthinking removes our 'reality' from the spiritual, and we forget the basics of what is right and what is wrong.

Thank you for saying this better than I did.  It is the overthinking that becomes a problem.  Particularly in this case, when on the surface both major party candidates are so disagreeable, to get the magnifying lens out trying to find the "better" so as to justify a choice that we don't even like is a waste of time.  If you've made your choice and feel there is no other, then move on.  There is no point in discussing further.  Unless you want to be talked out of what you think is a bad choice.  If it's as simple as "I won't vote for Hillary so I must vote for Trump" there is nothing further to discuss.  There is no moral decision with this case, and since you @don-o are looking at it this way I can understand why you think there is no moral decision to make.  But of course, there are choices other than Hillary or Trump.

[musiclady]

Thank you for saying this better than I did.  It is the overthinking that becomes a problem.  Particularly in this case, when on the surface both major party candidates are so disagreeable, to get the magnifying lens out trying to find the "better" so as to justify a choice that we don't even like is a waste of time.  If you've made your choice and feel there is no other, then move on.  There is no point in discussing further.  Unless you want to be talked out of what you think is a bad choice.  If it's as simple as "I won't vote for Hillary so I must vote for Trump" there is nothing further to discuss.  There is no moral decision with this case, and since you @don-o are looking at it this way I can understand why you think there is no moral decision to make.  But of course, there are choices other than Hillary or Trump.

Many good points there @RoosGirl .  Carrying it a bit further, if you believe the decision you have made is a good one, and morality is not involved, why set yourself up like this and asked to be talked out of what you believe to be a well thought out decision?  Why write a vanity and ask for people to prove you wrong?  And then dismiss others' well considered points by saying morality isn't involved (when it clearly is).

There's a lot of cognitive dissonance with this whole thing.

[betty boop]

...It happens that my odyssey has coincided  with my reading of Richard Weaver's “Ideas Have Consequences.” Early in the introduction he writes of “the appalling problem, when one gets to actual cases, of getting men to distinguish between better and worse”

   Eureka! There's a concept I had somehow excluded from my thinking, although in my non-political life, I distinguish all the time....

   Do I like my options? Not much.

   Shall I stand firmly on the belief that the lesser of two evils, being an evil, forbids me from exercising a prudential judgment based on better and worse?  I think not. I must find another way.

   I start with the understanding that this world is a fallen place and that men are fallen creatures. There  is no political system that will restore the world and men to the pre-fall state. However, there are things that I can do, both in my public and my private life, that will better or worsen myself, and by extension the sphere in which I live and act. With this as a basis, I then understand more clearly, the validity of “The perfect is the enemy of the good.”

   I need to be reminded that there is a distinction between moral judgment (good and evil) and prudential judgment (applies to tenable options that are not intrinsically evil.) With that distinction established, my odyssey can continue with a different way to think than before.

Beautifully stated, don-O.

We have to work with what we've got, not whine that we do not have better materials to work with. This only helps the "bad guys" -- the Left Progressive ideologues who have come to infest the federal government, from which position of power they seek to destroy the American middle class, the American way of life and the Constitution itself.  Or so it seems to me.

While reading your article, Aristotle's Spoudaios came forcefully to mind. This concept refers to the mature man who is a truly public-spirited and public-minded man, in that he loves his country and comes to its service. Not only in times of crisis; though he is particularly needful at such times, to restore the public order and the well-being of the people.

Thank you don-O, for your excellent article.

@don-o

[don-o]

Thank you don-O, for your excellent article.

@don-o

You're welcome.

And in response to some recent posts before yours....

 I have tried to address every substantive point of objection that has been raised. If anyone wants to simply opine, “You're wrong.” that is fine. Once is enough.

If I have failed to address a substantive point, I will try again.

If I have “ask(ed) for people to prove you wrong” please cite that and I well delete it. I do not recall doing that. That was not and is not my purpose.

I had a change of mind on the morning of July 5. I worked out the implications of that change in my mind and then wrote them down.  What of the fact that few agree with me? I don't care. Not every one who reads, posts.

I can look at myself in the mirror and anyone in the eye.

[RoosGirl]

What of the fact that few agree with me? I don't care. Not every one who reads, posts.

If this is in response to my comment about voting for who is best regardless of who the man next to me votes for then I will respond this way:  If I have understood your process for arriving at a decision then it seems to me your statement above is in contrast to that process.  If it was not in response to my comment referenced it still seems to me that your process of decision making and the statement above are in essence opposite to each other.

[RoosGirl]

I can look at myself in the mirror and anyone in the eye.

And that is the best you can do for yourself and have every reason to be satisfied with your decision.

[don-o]

If this is in response to my comment about voting for who is best regardless of who the man next to me votes for then I will respond this way:  If I have understood your process for arriving at a decision then it seems to me your statement above is in contrast to that process.  If it was not in response to my comment referenced it still seems to me that your process of decision making and the statement above are in essence opposite to each other.

I have no  idea what that means.

[musiclady]

You're welcome.

And in response to some recent posts before yours....

 I have tried to address every substantive point of objection that has been raised. If anyone wants to simply opine, “You're wrong.” that is fine. Once is enough.

If I have failed to address a substantive point, I will try again.

If I have “ask(ed) for people to prove you wrong” please cite that and I well delete it. I do not recall doing that. That was not and is not my purpose.

I had a change of mind on the morning of July 5. I worked out the implications of that change in my mind and then wrote them down.  What of the fact that few agree with me? I don't care. Not every one who reads, posts.

I can look at myself in the mirror and anyone in the eye.

And yet, you continue to post to people you know disagree with you to try to convince them that there is only one "reality," and that is yours.

You don't act as if you don't care.

If I am the only one here who believes exactly as I do (I'm sure I am, because no two people think exactly alike), I am more than happy to stand my ground against arguments against me.   This election has been a perfect example of that.    I find myself being in a position I have never been in before as a very faithful Republican, and that is being completely repulsed by the degenerate liberal running on the Republican ticket.  I have done deep soul searching, and am on entirely new ground in my conservatism because it is the first time in my 67 years that a Republican candidate doesn't have a single value that I have, and have always had as a Conservative Republican.

But if I were the only one, I would still stand strong, because my decision is based on immutable principles of right and wrong.

If you are the only one here, then I encourage you to continue to stand your ground, make your case, look yourself in the mirror and be satisfied that you are doing the right thing, continue to discuss why you believe as you do, but have the respect for others to believe we are doing the same thing.

I'm going to repeat what is become a theme song of mine here, but bears repeating.  If you are reluctantly voting for Trump as a means of stopping Hillary because you believe she is worse than he, most of us have no problem with that at all.   But if you are here trying specifically to shame others to join your version of "reality," and vote for Trump against our consciences, then your arguments need to be sharply countered.

[RoosGirl]

I have no  idea what that means.

Sorry I was not more clear, I will try to explain.  Your comment was that you don't care what others think.  However, my understanding of how you arrived at your decision is your belief that too many other people will be voting for Trump for you not to vote for him.  I see that basically as you caring what other people think because you have based your decision, in part, on it.

[don-o]

Sorry I was not more clear, I will try to explain.  Your comment was that you don't care what others think.  However, my understanding of how you arrived at your decision is your belief that too many other people will be voting for Trump for you not to vote for him.

Where do I say anything close to that?  Too many people voting for Trump? I want him to win. So Hillary will lose.

[mystery-ak]

I'm going to repeat what is become a theme song of mine here, but bears repeating.  If you are reluctantly voting for Trump as a means of stopping Hillary because you believe she is worse than he, most of us have no problem with that at all.   But if you are here trying specifically to shame others to join your version of "reality," and vote for Trump against our consciences, then your arguments need to be sharply countered

I am still on the fence but I think don and others are reluctantly voting for Trump..... I can only speak for myself as I would never presume to tell anyone how to vote or make them feel guilty about it....I hope most of us feel that way.

[don-o]

I am still on the fence but I think don and others are reluctantly voting for Trump..... I can only speak for myself as I would never presume to tell anyone how to vote or make them feel guilty about it....I hope most of us feel that way.

That's accurate for me. I can not control any feelings of guilt that people have.

[Timber Rattler]

That's accurate for me. I can not control any feelings of guilt that people have.

I have absolutely none.  Let the chips fall where they may.

[EasyAce]

We have to work with what we've got, not whine that we do not have better materials to work with.

That would be far more tenable if we hadn't been given nothing better than a choice between arsonists
for putting out the fire burning the national house.

Hillary Clinton doesn't like that Constitution thing

Trump, the Anti-Constitutional Authoritarian

I say again, few are the things for which I am more grateful, involving my life in Nevada since 2007, than the option to vote
"None of These Candidates" when to "work with what we've got" happens---as it does this year, regarding a vote for the
presidency---to stand athwart every instinctual, intellectual, and, yes, moral sense I bear in my imperfect enough being.

[RoosGirl]

Where do I say anything close to that?  Too many people voting for Trump? I want him to win. So Hillary will lose.

You have stated that the reality is that either Hillary or Trump will win and will vote for Trump only so Hillary does not win.  I take this as, you don't *want* to vote for Trump, but since so many other people are unwilling to vote for who they want because a third party will never win, you feel you have to go along with them.  That to me is, in a way, caring what other people think and basing a decision, at least in part, upon it.

[driftdiver]

I have absolutely none.  Let the chips fall where they may.

Conservatism and freedom has already lost this rigged election.   Probably never to return.

I only feel bad that we didn't do more 8 years ago.

[musiclady]

That's accurate for me. I can not control any feelings of guilt that people have.

Well, if it makes you feel better don-o, nothing you have said has made me feel guilty in the least.  I never feel guilty when I do the right thing.

My only comment to you is that you are quite deliberately trying to convince others to join you in your decision, without respecting our right to make a different decision without your trying to lay guilt on us.

I doubt that anyone who has come to the conclusion I have come to, for the reason I have come to it, feels any form of guilt.

So there is no need to worry about your lack of control over our lack of guilt. 

[r9etb]

I doubt that anyone who has come to the conclusion I have come to, for the reason I have come to it, feels any form of guilt.

I don't feel "guilt."  Why should I feel "guilt" because some other group of people chose a candidate so bad that I cannot support him, even given that the other candidate is so very awful?

Nah, my feelings run more along the lines of profound disappointment in the party I've supported my entire life, for nominating who they did; and a deep unease about the future of the nation because of the choice the GOP (not I!) made.

I needn't follow them over the cliff.

[musiclady]

I don't feel "guilt."  Why should I feel "guilt" because some other group of people chose a candidate so bad that I cannot support him, even given that the other candidate is so very awful?

Nah, my feelings run more along the lines of profound disappointment in the party I've supported my entire life, for nominating who they did; and a deep unease about the future of the nation because of the choice the GOP (not I!) made.

I needn't follow them over the cliff.

Precisely.  And I believe that is the opinion of the majority of us.

I was curious as to why there was an assumption that non-Trumpers feel any form of guilt.

Doing what you believe is right based on all the evidence and grounded in an understanding of right and wrong doesn't result in guilt.

It results in freedom.

[musiclady]

Just saw this on the Welcome thread and thought it applies:




No guilt.  No worries about what other people think.

Just freedom.

That's where I am.  Praise the Lord! 

[r9etb]

I was curious as to why there was an assumption that non-Trumpers feel any form of guilt.

I suppose it's based in part on a tacit belief that "my vote is the only one that matters."  If I do X the election turns out one way; and if I do Y, the election turns out a different way.  So of course I should feel guilty if my choice turns out to result in a bad president. 

However, as a matter of statistics the effect of my individual vote is actually negligible. 

The other part has to do with an assumption that Hillary in the oval office would be worse than Trump.  And she will be awful. 

The underlying assumption is that Trump is somehow a better choice.  However, his present behavior is predictive of his presidency; and his behavior suggests a presidency that will be rudderless, random, and animated by petty vindictiveness, at a time of great danger in the world.

Finally, the entire "Odyssey" argument rests on two fallacious assumptions: first, that we have only two choices in this election; and second, that one of the choices is acceptable.  But neither of those happens to be true in this case.  I can choose to vote some other way; and I can recognize that neither Clinton nor Trump are fit for the presidency.

[musiclady]

I suppose it's based in part on a tacit belief that "my vote is the only one that matters."  If I do X the election turns out one way; and if I do Y, the election turns out a different way.  So of course I should feel guilty if my choice turns out to result in a bad president. 

However, as a matter of statistics the effect of my individual vote is actually negligible. 

The other part has to do with an assumption that Hillary in the oval office would be worse than Trump.  And she will be awful. 

The underlying assumption is that Trump is somehow a better choice.  However, his present behavior is predictive of his presidency; and his behavior suggests a presidency that will be rudderless, random, and animated by petty vindictiveness, at a time of great danger in the world.

Finally, the entire "Odyssey" argument rests on two fallacious assumptions: first, that we have only two choices in this election; and second, that one of the choices is acceptable.  But neither of those happens to be true in this case.  I can choose to vote some other way; and I can recognize that neither Clinton nor Trump are fit for the presidency.

Well said.  I'm in total agreement.

[flowers]

Where do I say anything close to that?  Too many people voting for Trump? I want him to win. So Hillary will lose.

That is the way I feel too. She must lose.

[Bigun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUCLwWCihE&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUCLwWCihE&feature=youtu.be

[Liberty Tree Dr]

I am still on the fence but I think don and others are reluctantly voting for Trump..... I can only speak for myself as I would never presume to tell anyone how to vote or make them feel guilty about it....I hope most of us feel that way.

This is precisely my feeling - like @don-o I did not start as a Trump supporter.  If there was some other means of realistically getting someone else in the White House in 2016, I'd be all for it.  Unfortunately, that's not going to happen.  There are two choices and we're stuck with them.  And I know Clinton will utterly destroy the USA - can't choose her.

If we are going to hope and pine for unrealistic things (3rd party), I'd go all in and work my three-step process for getting the best candidate we could hope for:

• Perfect the art of Necromancy
• Change the Constitution to allow for a third & forth term
• Dig up George Washington & Ronald Reagan (President & Running Mate)

Has as much a shot as electing some no-name CIA neocon...