Author Topic: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper  (Read 87654 times)

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Offline thackney

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #225 on: August 10, 2016, 07:45:35 pm »
The act of voting is not a moral choice for me to make.

For me, if an act is not a moral choice, then there is no right or wrong choice to make.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #226 on: August 10, 2016, 07:47:28 pm »
I do not see my vote, in my state, as such a black or white issue.  For starters, there is no way in the world, my vote will make any difference in Texas.  We will not cast our electoral college votes for any democrat this year. 

This does encourages me to make a protest vote.  A vote I don't expect to make any difference in those elected, only in those counting that cared enough to vote, and found the choice unacceptable.

That's true! But even if it wasn't I still wouldn't vote fore either Hillary or Trump!
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #227 on: August 10, 2016, 07:49:03 pm »
Correct. Then enters prudential judgement where the better / worse options must be be weighed.

Consider eating pie. It is not a matter that needs moral judgement. My belief is that God allows me to eat anything that is is edible.

I probably should, however grapple with some better or worse aspects using prudential judgment..

What kind of pie? How much pie? If I eat all the pie how does that action affect others who deserve some of that pie? How much will my pie eating affect my health?

With Trump / Clinton, what I have done is to think of the post January 20 reality and what is a reasonable expectation. It takes little time to conclude with high confidence that Clinton is Obama's third term. I call that, in my mind "a known known" and consider it unacceptable.

So, I must judge the realistic options I have for preventing it.

As of today, Trump is that realistic option. I reject the "pick your poison" assertion. And I can live with some "known unknowns." 

As to those who thinks that his moral failings and his undisciplined tongue, disqualify him, I won't attempt to dissuade them. I posted my essay to share MY experience.
I reckon it might matter whose pie it is you are eating. Pragmatism is that moral relativism by which we divest ourselves of moral responsibility and rationalize our actions.

For example, if an enemy combatant only shoots the wounded and infirm prisoners (instead of all of them), that is a pragmatic decision based on who would slow them down, consume resources which could be used on their own troops, etc. Yet that pragmatic act would be tried as a war crime.

We are facing a choice between two unacceptable candidates for the office of 'most powerful person in the world', or at, least, the Leader  of the Free World', officially The President of the United States of America.  Those are the candidates, barring accident or incident, from which the next POTUS will be elected.  There are other choices. One may use their vote to promote what boils down to an alternate ideology via a third party candidate, which is very much a moral decision, to remain true to the beliefs one holds. Or one may choose that none of the candidates is sufficiently aligned with their moral beliefs and decide to withhold their vote rather than grant moral approval to any of those running for office, whether that reason be because the candidate's morals are too strict, or too loose.

Sure, it is a moral decision. Wrap it in whatever obfuscation you wish, but the soldier with the prisoners had a third option, namely to not shoot anyone they held as a prisoner.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #228 on: August 10, 2016, 07:53:19 pm »
No one has any idea what the other candidate will do because you can't believe a thing he says.
Just ask each candidate what the other would do and write down the opposite? But that would only work if they both lied all the time.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #229 on: August 10, 2016, 07:57:40 pm »
Well, yah - on purpose too... But I am the only one dipping into the bowl... so muhuhahaha!  :smokin:

*rolls eyes*... OK. fine... but setting that aside, and considering that there are no limbless, weeping, starving children within a readily definable area around me... Having a snack is not a moral issue.

Don't you roll your eyes at me, mister.  :P  I wasn't suggesting you were taking a chip out of some poor starving child's hand.  And as I said, it's not the act of eating that is itself the moral issue.  I was more referring to overindulgence, in anything really, that can become a moral dilemma, and I only mentioned that because of your comment about being something less (or more) than svelte.  It wasn't even really a comment about you personally, just overindulgence in general.

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #230 on: August 10, 2016, 08:00:00 pm »
For me, if an act is not a moral choice, then there is no right or wrong choice to make.

Do you make a moral choice if you decide to buy a car? Not considerations of budget, fuel choice, practicality, etc. For those you use prudence. And  better / worse.

Some Amish do consider buying a car an immoral act. Maybe. Maybe they could buy one, but not drive it, or ride in it.




Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #231 on: August 10, 2016, 08:02:07 pm »

Let's talk about abortion. Is it reasonable to assume that the appointments that Trump makes will be identical to the ones Clinton makes? If you say it is, then there is no need for going any farther. Please reply.

I really couldn't say if they will be the same or not.  I honestly can't make heads or tails of where the guy stands from day to day.  I am reasonably positive that Darrell Castle would not make identical appointments to either of them.


Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #232 on: August 10, 2016, 08:04:53 pm »
Do you make a moral choice if you decide to buy a car? Not considerations of budget, fuel choice, practicality, etc. For those you use prudence. And  better / worse.

Some Amish do consider buying a car an immoral act. Maybe. Maybe they could buy one, but not drive it, or ride in it.

This is off topic, but your comment reminded me of a show I was watching, I think it was called Treehouse Masters.  They had some local hired help come in for some extra hands on site and one was Amish.  He could use their power tools, but could not own them.  I found that interesting and wondered how closely that actually followed traditional Amish belief.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #233 on: August 10, 2016, 08:08:54 pm »
Do you make a moral choice if you decide to buy a car? Not considerations of budget, fuel choice, practicality, etc. For those you use prudence. And  better / worse.


I will play some devil's advocate here.  Do you decide to buy a Porsche or a Ford?  You know you can't afford the Porsche, but the bank will approve your loan.  Putting prudence aside, is it moral to buy the Porsche if you know you won't be able to pay your debt?

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #234 on: August 10, 2016, 08:10:22 pm »
I reckon it might matter whose pie it is you are eating. Pragmatism is that moral relativism by which we divest ourselves of moral responsibility and rationalize our actions.

For example, if an enemy combatant only shoots the wounded and infirm prisoners (instead of all of them), that is a pragmatic decision based on who would slow them down, consume resources which could be used on their own troops, etc. Yet that pragmatic act would be tried as a war crime.

It's murder. I fail to see your point. Why are you conflating pragmatism with prudence? Prudence operated within a moral framework. Has nothing to do with pragmatism.

Quote
We are facing a choice between two unacceptable candidates for the office of 'most powerful person in the world', or at, least, the Leader  of the Free World', officially The President of the United States of America.  Those are the candidates, barring accident or incident, from which the next POTUS will be elected.  There are other choices. One may use their vote to promote what boils down to an alternate ideology via a third party candidate, which is very much a moral decision, to remain true to the beliefs one holds. Or one may choose that none of the candidates is sufficiently aligned with their moral beliefs and decide to withhold their vote rather than grant moral approval to any of those running for office, whether that reason be because the candidate's morals are too strict, or too loose.

Sure, it is a moral decision. Wrap it in whatever obfuscation you wish, but the soldier with the prisoners had a third option, namely to not shoot anyone they held as a prisoner.

Is there ANY decision that is not a moral decision?

Offline thackney

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #235 on: August 10, 2016, 08:13:20 pm »
Do you make a moral choice if you decide to buy a car? Not considerations of budget, fuel choice, practicality, etc. For those you use prudence. And  better / worse.

Some Amish do consider buying a car an immoral act. Maybe. Maybe they could buy one, but not drive it, or ride in it.

Yes there is moral choices for me in buying a car.  My funds are not unlimited, what I choose to spend is money not available for other expenses, including those that greatly effect my family.  Practicality tends to come back to how it impacts use, which often effects others.  Buying a two seater sports car with five in the family would reflect a poor moral choice, when we cannot reasonably afford a toy of that expense.

Buying a blue car versus a red car is a not a moral choice, but then neither one has a wrong choice either.

If there isn't a "wrong" choice for me, then there isn't a moral aspect of the choice.

Can you say your vote (for you) has a wrong choice, but there is no moral aspect to that choice?
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #236 on: August 10, 2016, 08:17:53 pm »
We can discuss the definition of a "moral choice" til the cows come home, but none of that will change the fact that when one decides to cast a ballot for an amoral, degenerate, it IS a moral choice.

When I made the decision that I could not at any point in time vote for Donald Trump it was based almost entirely on a moral code that I will not violate.  (My political positions are also based on that code).

I did not create the moral absolutes that I follow, but I try to follow them in every aspect of my life.

And when one is voting for the President of the United States, if one's morality is not involved in the choice, then no good decision can result from it.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #237 on: August 10, 2016, 08:18:34 pm »
I really couldn't say if they will be the same or not.  I honestly can't make heads or tails of where the guy stands from day to day.  I am reasonably positive that Darrell Castle would not make identical appointments to either of them.

Darrell Castle will not be the next President. And if you cannot see your way to grasping the horror of Hillary appointments degenerating the judiciary into the far future, well, fare thee well.

You think Obama was a rough ride? He's kiddie car compared to what Hillary is going to roll out.

Reality really bites.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #238 on: August 10, 2016, 08:29:50 pm »
Darrell Castle will not be the next President. And if you cannot see your way to grasping the horror of Hillary appointments degenerating the judiciary into the far future, well, fare thee well.

You think Obama was a rough ride? He's kiddie car compared to what Hillary is going to roll out.

Reality really bites.

We're talking about moral decisions and what is right and what is wrong.  I cannot control other people's immoral decisions, I can only do my best to make my own decisions based on God's unwavering word of what is right and what is wrong.  I will not be forced into making an immoral decision because of other people's immorality.  I certainly understand where you are coming from, and I'm sure I do not have say again, like all my fellow conservative NeverTrumpers, we find both Hillary and Trump equally immoral and we are beyond disgusted that these two pillars of immorality are what our fellow citizens have given us from the two major parties.

Offline thackney

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #239 on: August 10, 2016, 08:42:57 pm »
I will not be forced into making an immoral decision because of other people's immorality.

Very good summation.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #240 on: August 10, 2016, 08:47:02 pm »
Darrell Castle will not be the next President. And if you cannot see your way to grasping the horror of Hillary appointments degenerating the judiciary into the far future, well, fare thee well.

You think Obama was a rough ride? He's kiddie car compared to what Hillary is going to roll out.

Reality really bites.

I'd rather take my chances with Clinton than Trump.  Clinton represents personal corruption and policies with which I disagree.  Trump's unstable, thuggish temperament represents an existential danger to the nation,  and his appeal to the racist alt-right is repugnant to me - not the least because Trump claims to the representative of the Party of Lincoln.   

I want my party back - and that means defeating Trumpism.   

   
 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 08:49:25 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #241 on: August 10, 2016, 09:47:49 pm »
Is there ANY decision that is not a moral decision?
Yes. Which prayers to say first.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #242 on: August 10, 2016, 09:55:48 pm »
I'd rather take my chances with Clinton than Trump.  Clinton represents personal corruption and policies with which I disagree.  Trump's unstable, thuggish temperament represents an existential danger to the nation,  and his appeal to the racist alt-right is repugnant to me - not the least because Trump claims to the representative of the Party of Lincoln.   

I want my party back - and that means defeating Trumpism.   

   
 
And that is a moral decision. One of two long term outcomes are acceptable: Either a third party grows in power enough to challenge the existing major parties, or one of the existing parties is stripped of the amoral and immoral people who have backed this fiasco. If the decision is the latter, the GOP is the existing major party with some acceptably moral people in power, and as the least corrupt, the one to save. So I see your intent, and won't argue with that.
The Continental Army lost far more battles than it won, but it won the war. The question for Republicans becomes "Will 'winning' this battle lose the war?". I think the outcome of a Trump victory, long term, for the GOP would be an end to the Party, and definitely a refutation of any moral high ground it may have enjoyed at the national level.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #243 on: August 10, 2016, 09:57:30 pm »
As some of you may have gathered, I don't really spend much time posting here any longer.  However, I noticed Don's essay thread here when he posted it and it has caught my attention as the discussion has progressed.  I want to let Don know how much I appreciate this thread, and his willingness to lay out his personal path and the reasoning that he used.

I will share some of my thoughts on the overall topic.  But be forewarned, I am not an "argument addict" by nature, and I really don't have a lot of time to post on a message forum, so I most likely will not respond to any replies to this post.  I will simply share my opinions, I am sure that not many will agree.  So be it.

I am sure that you've all heard an expression along these lines before: "you can't argue someone out of a proposition that they didn't arrive at using reason and logic."  In my view, Don has been attempting to "argue" and reason with people that are in a deep state of denial.  For if you can not accept the clear fact: if Trump is not elected, then Hillary will be sworn in on January 20, 2017, then you won't be accepting much beyond that.

A bit more about that, for members here.

Some may argue that it is likely that almost half of the eligible population won't bother voting, so my one vote doesn't matter.  While there is some truth to that, the eligible population of voters are NOT the people that are participating in BR (or any other right of center forums).  Discounting the wide variations in philosophy and perspective, by and large the members of BR are people from the right of center population.  Not all are GOP members, but they are certainly not members of the left of center population.  Therefore, you are the people that the GOP candidate (whatever you may think of our recent candidates, is neither here nor there) typically and traditionally draws upon for a voter base.  Because of this clear truth, it logically follows that: BR members that refuse to support and vote for Trump in the general election are, without dispute, supporting Clinton's electoral victory.  Of course, this varies by state, it is more relevant to people living in some states than others.  But for many of you, like it or not, your support (and potential vote) for Trump is all that is standing in the gap to prevent 0baa's 3rd and likely 4th term.  Certainly not the hand that you would prefer, but in fact, the hand that you've been dealt.

Look, I am sure that many of you are in the same camp as I am (and many others across the country): I voted for McCain in 2008 in an attempt to stop 0baa, I voted for Romney in 2012 in an attempt to stop 0baa.  Neither of them was my first choice during the primaries.  It is just what sensible, mature people do, when they wish to attempt to stop an evil force.  And now in 2016, sensible, mature people will vote for Trump in an attempt to stop HRC; regardless of who was her/his first choice during the primaries.  There it is, full stop. 

All of this talk of being "above it all" with a "clear conscience" or wasting a vote on a 3rd party candidate with zero hope of winning one EV, is just simply hogwash.  And a lot of it is hogwash with all sorts of bizarre religiosity layered over it.

Speaking for myself as an evangelical Christian since 1989, I have a much more practical, and I believe to be more sound view of the whole "morality and my vote" issue.  Here's what I believe, you may disagree:

- God wants me to be a good steward, and that includes stewardship of my role in the manmade government under which I reside.
- Part of that stewardship involves making the effort (at a minimum) to be registered to vote, and to cast a vote.
- God also always wants me to be a good steward of the intelligence and ability to reason that he chose to gift me at birth, and help me develop along the way.
- Therefore, God wants me to vote for the best possible candidate that is available to me in this very critical election.

That's the way I see, and have for quite some time.  It is simple, it is not fancy, but I believe that it is based on Biblical truth.  (Also included in this, but not stated, is my belief that God doesn't want me to squander my vote (poor stewardship) because I am upset and/or angry that the candidate(s) that I preferred are no longer in the running.)

And taking that a bit further, I do not believe that my vote for a candidate chains me to a running train of responsibility for any future actions of that candidate.  As an example, I voted for GWB twice.  I was very disappointed (to put it mildly) with some of his actions during those 2 terms (that I helped him achieve).  But I have never felt "guilty" or under God's judgment for those votes.  I simply used the same model that I sketched above, GWB was the best possible choice for me (and what I perceived to be my country's best interests) at the time.  Simple.

And as Don has pointed out so many times, Trump is the "known, unknown" and HRC is the "known, known."  And I am convinced that the vast majority of the people arguing that HRC is, or is potentially, worse than Trump, know that that simply isn't true (but it is a good excuse!).  Unless they have been living under a rock somewhere, they KNOW how evil HRC is, and has been, for many decades.  (Truth be told, there are probably few living humans as evil as HRC; we should count our blessings!)


And since I bothered to check in today, let me share a bit of my thinking about Trump's candidacy, in general terms.

Something that I believe causes a great deal of the anguish (and hatred) for Trump is also pretty simple.  I've tried to bring it out in a few threads here before I left.  Let me try to summarize it briefly now.

I will start with a few assumptions:
1.  Trump loves America.  (Now, he may also have an inordinate (or imprudent) amount of love for self and material things, but I don't believe that that overshadows his love of country.)
2.  Trump is a smart man (even though he can not speak publicly in the manner with which most of us expect an intelligent man to speak).
3.  He wants to WIN the general election.


Now, because he wants to actually WIN the general election, he had to craft a strategy to reach that goal.  Because he is a smart man, he looked back at the prior elections and saw how easily the Democrats marginalized and destroyed the Republican nominee (even in the two GWB elections that he won).  To anyone also looking at this recent history, it is pretty apparent how they accomplish that.  Trump decided that he would NOT allow himself to be marginalized in the same way, because he wants to WIN.

He would not allow them to use hot-button social issues to defeat him before he had a chance to mount his challenge.  He knew that it was likely that HRC would be the Democrat candidate, he knew that issues akin to the "war on women" would be prominent in the attack.  He also knew that to win a general election in 2016 America, one must gather in a lot of the independents or "moderates" to your side (and that harsh partisan rhetoric that tickles the ears of the hardliners does nothing for that).  And he also knew that there was a great deal of untapped votes (almost one half of the eligible electorate) that were available, with the right message, pushing the right buttons.

So on this basis, he crafted his message and his campaign.  Because of this, it was obvious that he would not be speaking the same language that many traditional "conservatives" were attracted to hearing, especially social conservatives.  I first noticed this back in July of 2015.  The PP issue was in the news and Trump had recently entered the race.  I listened carefully as he spoke about the issue.  Was he elegant with his words?  No, he never is.  Did he "play to the base" and take on a 'fire and brimstone' approach?  No.  What he did was two-fold:

1.  He spoke out against abortion.  He stated quite clearly that he does not support abortion (beyond the two exceptions).  He made it clear that he would NOT support funding PP to perform abortions.
2.  He disarmed the left from using their typical talking points against him by saying that he believes in supporting "women's health" issues (using their language).  That women's health issues were very important to him, and he would be a strong supporter of women's health issues.  (Now where I believe that he went too far, is when he also said that "PP does many good things for women's health."  That was a unnecessary stretch, IMO.)

At that point in time I realized what he was doing.  I realized that he would be running an unorthodox campaign in an attempt to disarm the typical weapons that are deployed against a Republican presidential candidate.  If you look back over the past year, you can see that he had collected a set of these (and other) issues and opinions on them, that he would unleash throughout the primaries and general election campaign.  In fact, you can see clearly that he had been running a general election campaign simultaneously throughout the primaries.  Another recent example of him taking an unorthodox approach for the Republican candidate is him speaking about "protecting the rights of the LGBQT community."  Now, he didn't say that he would expand their rights, or create special rights, just protect their rights as citizens.  Sure, he got a lot of backlash from the traditional conservative right for that.  But....  he again disarmed his opponents.  It will be much harder for them to slap the "he hates gays!" label on him, and make it stick.

Now I know that there are a lot of techniques and tactics that he used in the primaries to dispatch with his competitors that have left a lot of sore feelings and ill will.  Do I personally approve of them all?  No.  Could I have done a better job?  I doubt it.  Because, for all of our complaints about some of his tactics, the simple fact remains that in order to WIN the general election, one has to first become a candidate in the general election.  We have all acknowledged that politics is a "dirty business" for many years.  Why would we expect anything different in 2015-16?

Does any of this change the fact that Trump is indeed a flawed candidate that often does a horrendous job at speaking?  No.

But, at this point in the game, he remains the only one that has a chance to stop HRC.  Simple.  Reality.

Because no matter what high principles many clamor for day and night, unless you can WIN the general election, you will NEVER have a chance to support them as the Chief Executive and Commander in Chief.

It still remains a leap of faith to believe that Trump will stay true to his campaign policy statements.  There are no guarantees in life.  And perhaps it is even more of a gamble to place that faith in a man that has no depth of experience or even understanding of Constitutional governance.  But again, it comes back to one of Don's main points: we KNOW what HRC will do.

Sorry for the long rant, I hope that it was at least entertaining for you, if you bothered to read this far!

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #244 on: August 10, 2016, 10:33:00 pm »
Thanks, Katz for a rare pragmatic discussion of the political REALITY of the day.  It is binary, whether one choses to like it or not.

At several points in life, I was faced with options not of my making.

Once I screwed up badly, and was seduced by the Ross Perot song. But most of the time I can discern the realistic, logical options, and act accordingly. It does NOT mean that I approve of the options; merely I can discern them and select accordingly.

I want for America to make better decisions regarding illegal immigration, admitting risky dangerous costly refugees, and about the economy.

There is no uncertainty which of the only two options matches with my priorities. (My two favorites at the beginning were Perry and Walker; tested Republican governors, btw.)

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #245 on: August 10, 2016, 10:42:18 pm »
As some of you may have gathered, I don't really spend much time posting here any longer.  However, I noticed Don's essay thread here when he posted it and it has caught my attention as the discussion has progressed.  I want to let Don know how much I appreciate this thread, and his willingness to lay out his personal path and the reasoning that he used.

I will share some of my thoughts on the overall topic.  But be forewarned, I am not an "argument addict" by nature, and I really don't have a lot of time to post on a message forum, so I most likely will not respond to any replies to this post.  I will simply share my opinions, I am sure that not many will agree.  So be it.

I am sure that you've all heard an expression along these lines before: "you can't argue someone out of a proposition that they didn't arrive at using reason and logic."  In my view, Don has been attempting to "argue" and reason with people that are in a deep state of denial.  For if you can not accept the clear fact: if Trump is not elected, then Hillary will be sworn in on January 20, 2017, then you won't be accepting much beyond that.

A bit more about that, for members here.

Some may argue that it is likely that almost half of the eligible population won't bother voting, so my one vote doesn't matter.  While there is some truth to that, the eligible population of voters are NOT the people that are participating in BR (or any other right of center forums).  Discounting the wide variations in philosophy and perspective, by and large the members of BR are people from the right of center population.  Not all are GOP members, but they are certainly not members of the left of center population.  Therefore, you are the people that the GOP candidate (whatever you may think of our recent candidates, is neither here nor there) typically and traditionally draws upon for a voter base.  Because of this clear truth, it logically follows that: BR members that refuse to support and vote for Trump in the general election are, without dispute, supporting Clinton's electoral victory.  Of course, this varies by state, it is more relevant to people living in some states than others.  But for many of you, like it or not, your support (and potential vote) for Trump is all that is standing in the gap to prevent 0baa's 3rd and likely 4th term.  Certainly not the hand that you would prefer, but in fact, the hand that you've been dealt.

Look, I am sure that many of you are in the same camp as I am (and many others across the country): I voted for McCain in 2008 in an attempt to stop 0baa, I voted for Romney in 2012 in an attempt to stop 0baa.  Neither of them was my first choice during the primaries.  It is just what sensible, mature people do, when they wish to attempt to stop an evil force.  And now in 2016, sensible, mature people will vote for Trump in an attempt to stop HRC; regardless of who was her/his first choice during the primaries.  There it is, full stop. 

All of this talk of being "above it all" with a "clear conscience" or wasting a vote on a 3rd party candidate with zero hope of winning one EV, is just simply hogwash.  And a lot of it is hogwash with all sorts of bizarre religiosity layered over it.

Speaking for myself as an evangelical Christian since 1989, I have a much more practical, and I believe to be more sound view of the whole "morality and my vote" issue.  Here's what I believe, you may disagree:

- God wants me to be a good steward, and that includes stewardship of my role in the manmade government under which I reside.
- Part of that stewardship involves making the effort (at a minimum) to be registered to vote, and to cast a vote.
- God also always wants me to be a good steward of the intelligence and ability to reason that he chose to gift me at birth, and help me develop along the way.
- Therefore, God wants me to vote for the best possible candidate that is available to me in this very critical election.

That's the way I see, and have for quite some time.  It is simple, it is not fancy, but I believe that it is based on Biblical truth.  (Also included in this, but not stated, is my belief that God doesn't want me to squander my vote (poor stewardship) because I am upset and/or angry that the candidate(s) that I preferred are no longer in the running.)

And taking that a bit further, I do not believe that my vote for a candidate chains me to a running train of responsibility for any future actions of that candidate.  As an example, I voted for GWB twice.  I was very disappointed (to put it mildly) with some of his actions during those 2 terms (that I helped him achieve).  But I have never felt "guilty" or under God's judgment for those votes.  I simply used the same model that I sketched above, GWB was the best possible choice for me (and what I perceived to be my country's best interests) at the time.  Simple.

And as Don has pointed out so many times, Trump is the "known, unknown" and HRC is the "known, known."  And I am convinced that the vast majority of the people arguing that HRC is, or is potentially, worse than Trump, know that that simply isn't true (but it is a good excuse!).  Unless they have been living under a rock somewhere, they KNOW how evil HRC is, and has been, for many decades.  (Truth be told, there are probably few living humans as evil as HRC; we should count our blessings!)


And since I bothered to check in today, let me share a bit of my thinking about Trump's candidacy, in general terms.

Something that I believe causes a great deal of the anguish (and hatred) for Trump is also pretty simple.  I've tried to bring it out in a few threads here before I left.  Let me try to summarize it briefly now.

I will start with a few assumptions:
1.  Trump loves America.  (Now, he may also have an inordinate (or imprudent) amount of love for self and material things, but I don't believe that that overshadows his love of country.)
2.  Trump is a smart man (even though he can not speak publicly in the manner with which most of us expect an intelligent man to speak).
3.  He wants to WIN the general election.


Now, because he wants to actually WIN the general election, he had to craft a strategy to reach that goal.  Because he is a smart man, he looked back at the prior elections and saw how easily the Democrats marginalized and destroyed the Republican nominee (even in the two GWB elections that he won).  To anyone also looking at this recent history, it is pretty apparent how they accomplish that.  Trump decided that he would NOT allow himself to be marginalized in the same way, because he wants to WIN.

He would not allow them to use hot-button social issues to defeat him before he had a chance to mount his challenge.  He knew that it was likely that HRC would be the Democrat candidate, he knew that issues akin to the "war on women" would be prominent in the attack.  He also knew that to win a general election in 2016 America, one must gather in a lot of the independents or "moderates" to your side (and that harsh partisan rhetoric that tickles the ears of the hardliners does nothing for that).  And he also knew that there was a great deal of untapped votes (almost one half of the eligible electorate) that were available, with the right message, pushing the right buttons.

So on this basis, he crafted his message and his campaign.  Because of this, it was obvious that he would not be speaking the same language that many traditional "conservatives" were attracted to hearing, especially social conservatives.  I first noticed this back in July of 2015.  The PP issue was in the news and Trump had recently entered the race.  I listened carefully as he spoke about the issue.  Was he elegant with his words?  No, he never is.  Did he "play to the base" and take on a 'fire and brimstone' approach?  No.  What he did was two-fold:

1.  He spoke out against abortion.  He stated quite clearly that he does not support abortion (beyond the two exceptions).  He made it clear that he would NOT support funding PP to perform abortions.
2.  He disarmed the left from using their typical talking points against him by saying that he believes in supporting "women's health" issues (using their language).  That women's health issues were very important to him, and he would be a strong supporter of women's health issues.  (Now where I believe that he went too far, is when he also said that "PP does many good things for women's health."  That was a unnecessary stretch, IMO.)

At that point in time I realized what he was doing.  I realized that he would be running an unorthodox campaign in an attempt to disarm the typical weapons that are deployed against a Republican presidential candidate.  If you look back over the past year, you can see that he had collected a set of these (and other) issues and opinions on them, that he would unleash throughout the primaries and general election campaign.  In fact, you can see clearly that he had been running a general election campaign simultaneously throughout the primaries.  Another recent example of him taking an unorthodox approach for the Republican candidate is him speaking about "protecting the rights of the LGBQT community."  Now, he didn't say that he would expand their rights, or create special rights, just protect their rights as citizens.  Sure, he got a lot of backlash from the traditional conservative right for that.  But....  he again disarmed his opponents.  It will be much harder for them to slap the "he hates gays!" label on him, and make it stick.

Now I know that there are a lot of techniques and tactics that he used in the primaries to dispatch with his competitors that have left a lot of sore feelings and ill will.  Do I personally approve of them all?  No.  Could I have done a better job?  I doubt it.  Because, for all of our complaints about some of his tactics, the simple fact remains that in order to WIN the general election, one has to first become a candidate in the general election.  We have all acknowledged that politics is a "dirty business" for many years.  Why would we expect anything different in 2015-16?

Does any of this change the fact that Trump is indeed a flawed candidate that often does a horrendous job at speaking?  No.

But, at this point in the game, he remains the only one that has a chance to stop HRC.  Simple.  Reality.

Because no matter what high principles many clamor for day and night, unless you can WIN the general election, you will NEVER have a chance to support them as the Chief Executive and Commander in Chief.

It still remains a leap of faith to believe that Trump will stay true to his campaign policy statements.  There are no guarantees in life.  And perhaps it is even more of a gamble to place that faith in a man that has no depth of experience or even understanding of Constitutional governance.  But again, it comes back to one of Don's main points: we KNOW what HRC will do.

Sorry for the long rant, I hope that it was at least entertaining for you, if you bothered to read this far!
It was entertaining, and I did read that far. I am not sure attributing incoherence to an ingenious strategy is accurate, although certainly there is something disarming in trying to attack the policy statements of someone who has essentially straddled every issue either through words, actions, or both. No matter who says what, it can be refuted.

The campaign, essentially. is to present a blank slate and let the voter write what they want on it. That is how Obama won, not just once but twice, with people interpreting his hollow verbiage as they chose and often displaying the same sort of near-worship of the man. The only difference is this time the frame has an excessive amount of gilding on it.

The other part is to make outrageous statements and walk them back (part issue straddling, part dominating the news cycle). The only problem with that is that there is enough coming out about his opponent that would work against her, that he is, in effect, providing a smokescreen (unintentionally or otherwise) for the bad press she would otherwise get, but doesn't because his outrageousness is dominating the news cycle.

Her true believers have been lined up and waiting for this moment for a decade or more, and new ones have come in to replace the ones who have died out. She has nothing to prove to her sycophants, they are in the bag and have been there. Only bad press can hurt her, and that isn't getting out, partly because the media is biased, but partly because of Trump, himself.

Now the other thing is the idea that a third party vote is wasted. It's back to the self-fulfilling prophesy of they can't win, so I won't vote for them, even though they are exactly what I want, so they don't win. (See! I told you so!)

If you shopped that way, nothing you own would be what you want. In politics, power goes to those who have backing, backing to those who have a following, the following to those who have the 'right' ideas, with that one exception. It is the 'electability' argument all over again.

Catch-22. How does a party gain members and strength if the prospective members won't vote that way because it doesn't have members and strength? I will submit, the only way things are going to change is if the voters do, in practice, vote for what they want. If that is Constitutional Government, vote that way, if it is Liberalism with FSA outlets on every street corner, vote that way. If it is a big question mark, well, let your conscience be your guide.

I won't, however, be deterred (again) to vote for the most acceptable unacceptable outcome to keep the most unacceptable unacceptable outcome from winning. Instead, I have resolved to either vote for the government I want, or, given no acceptable choice, not at all.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #246 on: August 10, 2016, 10:54:31 pm »

Sorry for the long rant, I hope that it was at least entertaining for you, if you bothered to read this far!


Excellent summation, Mick!

I caught myself nodding my head more than a few times, reviewing, what is a year of events you've traced to this point.

And a special shout-out for citing the religiosity of some arguments used here.   :laugh:
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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #247 on: August 10, 2016, 11:06:28 pm »
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For if you can not accept the clear fact: if Trump is not elected, then Hillary will be sworn in on January 20, 2017, then you won't be accepting much beyond that.

Despite my admiration for you as a friend and scholar I stopped reading right there as it is a COMPLETE logical fallacy!  If everyone who cannot stomach either Hillary or Trump actually followed their conscience and voted that way neither of them would be sworn in as president om January 20, 2017.

I'm NOT going to play the hostage dilemma game  anymore! EVER!
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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #248 on: August 11, 2016, 12:10:39 am »
Despite my admiration for you as a friend and scholar I stopped reading right there as it is a COMPLETE logical fallacy!  If everyone who cannot stomach either Hillary or Trump actually followed their conscience and voted that way neither of them would be sworn in as president om January 20, 2017.

I'm NOT going to play the hostage dilemma game  anymore! EVER!

Ditto.  I won't be voting for Trump just because he's not Hillary; nor vice versa.  I'm voting for neither - they're equally bad.  So I'm just looking for a way to lodge a vote for some other candidate that might send some sort of message instead.

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #249 on: August 11, 2016, 12:26:58 am »
I am sure that you've all heard an expression along these lines before: "you can't argue someone out of a proposition that they didn't arrive at using reason and logic."  In my view, Don has been attempting to "argue" and reason with people that are in a deep state of denial.  For if you can not accept the clear fact: if Trump is not elected, then Hillary will be sworn in on January 20, 2017, then you won't be accepting much beyond that.

First flaw: Between the two, I don't care who wins. Literally, and without emotion, both fall outside of my unconditional parameters. I see no difference in the two, whatsoever. The only acceptable outcome is for NEITHER to win, so that is the option I will work toward, despite any argument toward it being an extremely long shot - There is otherwise 'nothing to lose', so why not go for broke?

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Not all are GOP members, but they are certainly not members of the left of center population.  Therefore, you are the people that the GOP candidate (whatever you may think of our recent candidates, is neither here nor there) typically and traditionally draws upon for a voter base.  Because of this clear truth, it logically follows that: BR members that refuse to support and vote for Trump in the general election are, without dispute, supporting Clinton's electoral victory. 

NONSENSE. If the GOP so badly needs to draw upon right of center for their base, then they damn well ought to put up a candidate that is right of center. And that is not yet enough - FAR right of center - Then you are getting into the ballpark. Until then, I don't give a flying fig what the GOP, or anyone else feels is my duty - My duty is to Conservatism, not the GOP, and there is no reason whatsoever for me to vote for the big rhinestone 'R' otherwise - And especially so, when their candidate is a NYC liberal.

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Look, I am sure that many of you are in the same camp as I am (and many others across the country): I voted for McCain in 2008 in an attempt to stop 0baa, I voted for Romney in 2012 in an attempt to stop 0baa.  Neither of them was my first choice during the primaries.  It is just what sensible, mature people do, when they wish to attempt to stop an evil force.  And now in 2016, sensible, mature people will vote for Trump in an attempt to stop HRC; regardless of who was her/his first choice during the primaries.  There it is, full stop. 

Bullcrap. It doesn't work. And once again, it will be proven in spades. You cannot vote AGAINST anything. Your vote is nothing but a positive endorsement. If there are enough people that positively agree with you, then you win. That means you have to have a positive message with which to engage the population. FEAR of Clinton, and the weak argument that Trump is somewhat better is a ludicrously lame argument, and not a positive message in the least.

And I did not vote for Romney, nor McCain't, nor Dole, nor Poppy's second term. If you want to win, nominate a Conservative.

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All of this talk of being "above it all" with a "clear conscience" or wasting a vote on a 3rd party candidate with zero hope of winning one EV, is just simply hogwash.  And a lot of it is hogwash with all sorts of bizarre religiosity layered over it.

What is hogwash is pulling the lever for that which you abhor.

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Therefore, God wants me to vote for the best possible candidate that is available to me in this very critical election.

Right. And that candidate, beyond any question, is Darrell Castle.

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(Also included in this, but not stated, is my belief that God doesn't want me to squander my vote (poor stewardship) because I am upset and/or angry that the candidate(s) that I preferred are no longer in the running.)

You guys always throw that in there - Once again, and HEAR ME: I do not vote for men. I vote for principles. I am not unduly upset that Cruz is out of the running. For all intensive porpoises, Castle is standing on the same ground as Cruz. Why would I squander my precious vote on a NYC liberal when there is a perfectly good Conservative in the race? Not that I would vote for the liberal anyway....

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And as Don has pointed out so many times, Trump is the "known, unknown" and HRC is the "known, known."  And I am convinced that the vast majority of the people arguing that HRC is, or is potentially, worse than Trump, know that that simply isn't true (but it is a good excuse!).  Unless they have been living under a rock somewhere, they KNOW how evil HRC is, and has been, for many decades.  (Truth be told, there are probably few living humans as evil as HRC; we should count our blessings!)

More fear and baloney. Trump is not an unknown. He is predictably liberal, with a very long public record. He is also predictably of low character. And he lies out of both sides of his face. You know what you're getting.

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I will start with a few assumptions:
1.  Trump loves America.  (Now, he may also have an inordinate (or imprudent) amount of love for self and material things, but I don't believe that that overshadows his love of country.)

Unfounded. Trump loves himself. And Trump loves power.

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2.  Trump is a smart man (even though he can not speak publicly in the manner with which most of us expect an intelligent man to speak).

Again, unfounded. He has made terrifically stupid mistakes, not only in the election, but all the way along.

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3.  He wants to WIN the general election.

I would have given you that not very long ago, but I don't even know that anymore. He certainly isn't looking like he wants to win right now.

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Now, because he wants to actually WIN the general election, he had to craft a strategy to reach that goal. 

Again, more analysis than necessary. He came in like a bull in a china shop, denigrated his opponents with lies and false memes - and won.

But in doing so, he pissed off absolutely everyone he was going to need to win the election.
Now he can't get support, nor can he get money, nor can he get good press.
Brilliance, right? Nope. Absolute stupidity.

He's done. Y'all just don't know it yet.

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But, at this point in the game, he remains the only one that has a chance to stop HRC.  Simple.  Reality.

Nope. He.will.not.win.
If you want to win against Hillary, Castle is the better bet... Or maybe that McMuffin guy. I don't know about him yet.

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Because no matter what high principles many clamor for day and night, unless you can WIN the general election, you will NEVER have a chance to support them as the Chief Executive and Commander in Chief.

To win without principles intact, is no win at all. Not that it matters, because without Conservatives, he will not win. And Conservatives will not turn out for him, because their principles matter to them, and they will not forsake them. End of story.

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It still remains a leap of faith to believe that Trump will stay true to his campaign policy statements. 

No, way past faith - Unicorns farting rainbows territory... He is of low character. He lies like a rug. He is on all sides of all issues. You won't be getting what you want. Guarandamnteed.