Odyssey of a NeverTrumper

[don-o]

The primaries are over. The "other than Trump supporters" WERE a majority, but that is the way the game is played. Reality.

One of two candidates will swear the oath on Jan 20. Reality.

There is one ideologically pure candidate. Reality.

Not voting Trump lessens the work load and paves the path for the pure statist ideology candidate. Reality.

[DCPatriot]

The primaries are over. The "other than Trump supporters" WERE a majority, but that is the way the game is played. Reality.

One of two candidates will swear the oath on Jan 20. Reality.

There is one ideologically pure candidate. Reality.

Not voting Trump lessens the work load and paves the path for the pure statist ideology candidate. Reality.

And 'they' couldn't care less.  Reality.

[don-o]

And 'they' couldn't care less.  Reality.

I would not go that far. I would say "they" (a term I hesitate to use - it's not specific) care about a single aspect to the exclusion of all others.

This is known from my experience.

[r9etb]

Reality.

Our moral choices matter to God. Reality.

[r9etb]

I would not go that far. I would say "they" (a term I hesitate to use - it's not specific) care about a single aspect to the exclusion of all others.

This is known from my experience.

[DCPatriot]

I would not go that far. I would say "they" (a term I hesitate to use - it's not specific) care about a single aspect to the exclusion of all others.

This is known from my experience.

'They'...are not morons.  'They' are not ill-informed.  Just for the example you cite.

Therefore, 'They' couldn't care less.   

[Meshuge Mikey]

The sHrillary..and The Donny are playing n the same team! the score  wont matter unless another Team Shows Up!! 

[don-o]

Our moral choices matter to God. Reality.

You have yet to prove that the choice of who to vote for is a moral choice. To, again.  try to be clear, one must decide first whether the act of voting is morally permissible. I find no moral basis not to vote. Moral judgements apply to acts that I do or do not do. They do not apply to other people.

That is for prudential judgment and the better / worse analysis.

[r9etb]

You have yet to prove that the choice of who to vote for is a moral choice. To, again.  try to be clear, one must decide first whether the act of voting is morally permissible. I find no moral basis not to vote. Moral judgements apply to acts that I do or do not do. They do not apply to other people.

That is for prudential judgment and the better / worse analysis.

Given that I completely reject your analysis, and have given ample justification for doing so, I'm really not that interested in your rehash of unconvincing claims.

I'm just going to content myself with reminding you of your fallacies.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

You have yet to prove that the choice of who to vote for is a moral choice. To, again.  try to be clear, one must decide first whether the act of voting is morally permissible. I find no moral basis not to vote. Moral judgements apply to acts that I do or do not do. They do not apply to other people.

That is for prudential judgment and the better / worse analysis.

So on the flip side, if voting is not a moral issue; there would be no moral issue with voting in a Hillary or a Hitler. There must be some level we say enough is enough. How do we decide where that is?

[don-o]

Like everything you post on this thread, you again fail again to post anything but sophistry. Do you know what that word means? Hint: It comes before philosophy.

[r9etb]

Like everything you post on this thread, you again fail again to post anything but sophistry. Do you know what that word means? Hint: It comes before philosophy.

Wow.  A bit touchy, Don?

Project much?

Strawman much?

Because, hey, you did it again!

[thackney]

You have yet to prove that the choice of who to vote for is a moral choice. To, again.  try to be clear, one must decide first whether the act of voting is morally permissible. I find no moral basis not to vote. Moral judgements apply to acts that I do or do not do. They do not apply to other people.

That is for prudential judgment and the better / worse analysis.

My voting is an act I do.  It is a moral choice for me.

I find it sad to find another conservative that thinks there is no morality in their choice to vote.

[RoosGirl]

You have yet to prove that the choice of who to vote for is a moral choice. To, again.  try to be clear, one must decide first whether the act of voting is morally permissible. I find no moral basis not to vote. Moral judgements apply to acts that I do or do not do. They do not apply to other people.

That is for prudential judgment and the better / worse analysis.

Doesn't every action we take or don't take boil down to a moral choice?

[musiclady]

Doesn't every action we take or don't take boil down to a moral choice?

Yes.

Especially when that choice bears directly on the morality of this nation.

[roamer_1]

Doesn't every action we take or don't take boil down to a moral choice?

I don't think it's quite THAT easy - I may choose the action of reaching into this here bag of tortilla chips, and make the conscious decision to pick one at random, and dip it into this bowl of salsa sitting here...

Is that a matter of morality? Unless you want to call me on my rather corpulent body type, not really...

[guitar4jesus]

Like everything you post on this thread, you again fail again to post anything but sophistry. Do you know what that word means? Hint: It comes before philosophy.

[r9etb]

I don't think it's quite THAT easy - I may choose the action of reaching into this here bag of tortilla chips, and make the conscious decision to pick one at random, and dip it into this bowl of salsa sitting here...

Is that a matter of morality?

lol ... quite right.  I made the mistake in my younger years of trying to defend the proposition that it is.   It was a rather embarrassing "hobgoblins of little minds" moment for me.

However, a decision to not vote for either major party candidate is rather different....

[don-o]

So on the flip side, if voting is not a moral issue; there would be no moral issue with voting in a Hillary or a Hitler. There must be some level we say enough is enough. How do we decide where that is?

Correct. Then enters prudential judgement where the better / worse options must be be weighed.

Consider eating pie. It is not a matter that needs moral judgement. My belief is that God allows me to eat anything that is is edible.

I probably should, however grapple with some better or worse aspects using prudential judgment..

What kind of pie? How much pie? If I eat all the pie how does that action affect others who deserve some of that pie? How much will my pie eating affect my health?

With Trump / Clinton, what I have done is to think of the post January 20 reality and what is a reasonable expectation. It takes little time to conclude with high confidence that Clinton is Obama's third term. I call that, in my mind "a known known" and consider it unacceptable.

So, I must judge the realistic options I have for preventing it.

As of today, Trump is that realistic option. I reject the "pick your poison" assertion. And I can live with some "known unknowns." 

As to those who thinks that his moral failings and his undisciplined tongue, disqualify him, I won't attempt to dissuade them. I posted my essay to share MY experience.

[roamer_1]

@guitar4jesus

Your tag: If you place winning above integrity you have already lost.

That's it... Right in a nutshell. Thx.

[don-o]

My voting is an act I do.  It is a moral choice for me.

I find it sad to find another conservative that thinks there is no morality in their choice to vote.

The Amish don't vote. I do vote.

[RoosGirl]

I don't think it's quite THAT easy - I may choose the action of reaching into this here bag of tortilla chips, and make the conscious decision to pick one at random, and dip it into this bowl of salsa sitting here...

Is that a matter of morality? Unless you want to call me on my rather corpulent body type, not really...

I don't know, are you double dipping? ;)

Seriously, if you are over-indulging, like I have a tendency to do, then yes, I would say it is a moral decision with respect to how God wants us to live.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

You have yet to prove that the choice of who to vote for is a moral choice. To, again.  try to be clear, one must decide first whether the act of voting is morally permissible. I find no moral basis not to vote. Moral judgements apply to acts that I do or do not do. They do not apply to other people.

That is for prudential judgment and the better / worse analysis.

@don-o You and weaver are shooting well over my head, but I can't shake the feeling that one judgement day I'm going to stand accountable to the leaders I give support to with my vote. Now, maybe I can't argue that in high tone philosophy; but gosh durn it there right and there's wrong. This country is in the mess that it is in for making immoral choices in regards to our leaders.

Is it immoral to vote for a member of the KKK, or a murder. We live in a Republic and we as citizens are stewards of our nation. I think we will stand accountable for the choices we make that will effect our children and grand children. I think that makes voting a moral issue. Now I can't prove it with all the high highfalutin language you cotton to, but there it is. 

[roamer_1]

lol ... quite right.  I made the mistake in my younger years of trying to defend the proposition that it is.   It was a rather embarrassing "hobgoblins of little minds" moment for me.

However, a decision to not vote for either major party candidate is rather different....

Right... It is different. Take as a case study, the moral impact of knowingly supporting a candidate that is pro-choice. Or even supporting a candidate that is merely indifferent to the injustice of abortion...

There is surely a moral aspect in such a decision. One which I will not suffer.

[guitar4jesus]

@guitar4jesus

Your tag: If you place winning above integrity you have already lost.

That's it... Right in a nutshell. Thx.