Author Topic: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors  (Read 8131 times)

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2016, 06:44:50 pm »
[quote auhor=thackney link=topic=217489.msg990458#emsg990458 date=d1469634122]
EPA Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel got their hooks into Off-Road in 2010.

http://www.clean-diesel.org/nonroad.html
[/quote]

I have to buy it for my diesel pu,but I know places I can go to buy regular diesel for my loader if I want. As far as I know,you can still buy the old-fashioned diesel at marinas. Maybe not in Ca,but in other places.

And anybody with a farm can buy it in bulk and have it delivered by bulk to their diesel tanks. They don't have to pay highway taxes if they do this,so that makes it cheaper to buy just like buying it in bulk makes it cheaper to buy.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 06:46:22 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2016, 07:12:01 pm »
Rather than multiple quotes, I'll just address all the negative responders here.

Obviously I'm not familiar with the economics of farming.  Nor am I holding forth...I'm learning, in fact.

But I recall back in the years of whipsawing diesel prices, where owner-operator truckers were losing money on every trip.  They HAD to; they had long-term loans on their equipment, and losing a little money over some trips was better than losing it ALL in repossession and collection efforts.

They were behind the 8-ball on that.  Because they borrowed on one economic reality, and then had to work under a different one.

Me, I think when things get that shaky the thing to do is scale back.  Back in the swinging-diesel-price years, the guys in the best positions were the ones with lower-cost tractors that were paid for.   Maybe it's not possible for farmers to do that; but when it's all risk and at best, little reward...the thing, like I said, is to ask:  What would John Galt do?

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2016, 08:29:51 pm »
The EPA strikes again.

This isn't the EPA.  It's private businesses under capitalism finding ways to lock in customers.


Quote
What we need is STATE SECESSION.  And in Seceded States, EVERY Fuddrel Ossifer or employee...arrested and made to pay for their crimes against the public.

States are quite successful at making their own individual requirements that are even more costly than a sweeping federal one.


I'm not arguing against capitalism or in favor of a large federal government.  I'm just saying we need to be realistic and admit there's no panacea.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2016, 08:41:45 pm »
I have to buy it for my diesel pu,but I know places I can go to buy regular diesel for my loader if I want. As far as I know,you can still buy the old-fashioned diesel at marinas. Maybe not in Ca,but in other places.

And anybody with a farm can buy it in bulk and have it delivered by bulk to their diesel tanks. They don't have to pay highway taxes if they do this,so that makes it cheaper to buy just like buying it in bulk makes it cheaper to buy.

No, it is not highway diesel.  But the dyed red off-road diesel is now also Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel, like the highway diesel, but without the road tax.

As of 2012, even the locomotive fuel is ULSD.

I can assure you are not buying old-fashioned "regular" diesel because the refineries are no longer allowed to make it. (except in some very limited cases)

https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standards-rulemakings

Before EPA began regulating sulfur in diesel, diesel fuel contained as much as 5,000 parts per million (ppm) of sulfur. EPA began regulating diesel fuel sulfur levels in 1993.  Beginning in 2006, EPA began to phase-in more stringent regulations to lower the amount of sulfur to 15 ppm. This fuel is known as ultra-low sulfur diesel (ULSD).
EPA’s diesel program standards require that:

After 2010, all highway diesel fuel supplied to the market be ULSD and all highway diesel vehicles must use ULSD

After 2014, all nonroad, locomotive, and marine (NRLM) diesel fuel must be ULSD, and all NRLM engines and equipment must use this fuel
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Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2016, 09:06:22 pm »
And orders by the EPA are not the same as solutions to engineering issues.

Sulfur in diesel fuel is a lubricant to valves and injectors.   Taking it out creates problems.

I don't know if those engineering issues are solved.

One thing I DO know is that this new diesel fuel, creates REEKING diesel exhaust.  I wonder if, once again, the EPA has traded one kind of emission it's fixated on, for another, much more harmful, which it has not considered.

Not unlike the sulfuric acid emissions that result from automobile catalytic converters.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2016, 09:10:37 pm »
Quote from: thackney link=topic=217489.msg991035#msg991035 date=146965210d5
No, it is not highway diesel.  But the dyed red off-road diesel is now also Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel, like the highway diesel, but without the road tax.

As of 2012, even the locomotive fuel is ULSD.<<

Thanks for the correction. I obviously didn't know that the red dye was just to signify no road tax paid.

I have to admit I have noticed zero fuel-related problems with either my 06 Izuzu (GM) diesel in my pu,or the 93 3 cylinder non-turbo Ford diesel in my front end loader. My 06 GMC has no smog control whatsoever other than a PCV valve,and neither does my loader. The mid-year 07's and newer is when all that stuff came into existence,and that's why I looked for a 06 on the truck. I have no idea what the newer loaders have,if they have anything other than the PCV.




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Offline thackney

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2016, 09:20:46 pm »
And orders by the EPA are not the same as solutions to engineering issues.

Sulfur in diesel fuel is a lubricant to valves and injectors.   Taking it out creates problems.

I don't know if those engineering issues are solved.

Lubricity (how well the fuel lubricates injectors and fuel pumps) was a worry back in 2007.  But now they’re adding things at the refinery level that give the ULSD fuel the right amount of lubrication, so that’s not a big worry for diesel users.  What they do have to worry about is the greater chance of microbes in the fuel tank.  Sulfur was always a natural inhibitor of microbial growth, and the old high-sulfur and low-sulfur diesel fuels contained enough sulfur all you had to do to prevent microbes was keep water accumulation under control.  The new ULSD fuels have changed all that, and diesel users with stored ULSD fuels are going to have to be a lot more vigilant in making sure they don’t let microbial growth in their fuel tanks get out of control.

https://www.bellperformance.com/bell-performs-blog/still-using-low-sulfur-off-road-diesel-you-need-to-know-this
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2016, 09:22:00 pm »
This isn't the EPA.  It's private businesses under capitalism finding ways to lock in customers.


States are quite successful at making their own individual requirements that are even more costly than a sweeping federal one.


I'm not arguing against capitalism or in favor of a large federal government.  I'm just saying we need to be realistic and admit there's no panacea.
Some states make requirements in excess of Federal ones, other states, if free to do so, would relax those requirements. What is 'needed' in SoCal is not in North Dakota or Wyoming, for instance, and only the Federal Government imposes that.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2016, 09:23:40 pm »
And orders by the EPA are not the same as solutions to engineering issues.

Sulfur in diesel fuel is a lubricant to valves and injectors.   Taking it out creates problems.<<

I use a Lucas fuel injection  product with every tank of fuel.

I don't know if those engineering issues are solved.<<

Nor do I. Which is why I use the Lucas product.

One thing I DO know is that this new diesel fuel, creates REEKING diesel exhaust.  I wonder if, once again, the EPA has traded one kind of emission it's fixated on, for another, much more harmful, which it has not considered.

Not unlike the sulfuric acid emissions that result from automobile catalytic converters.<<

You may be right,but you are definitely right to be suspicious.  The fools that demanded ethanol be used in gas should be in prison.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2016, 09:27:57 pm »
And orders by the EPA are not the same as solutions to engineering issues.

Sulfur in diesel fuel is a lubricant to valves and injectors.   Taking it out creates problems.

I don't know if those engineering issues are solved.

One thing I DO know is that this new diesel fuel, creates REEKING diesel exhaust.  I wonder if, once again, the EPA has traded one kind of emission it's fixated on, for another, much more harmful, which it has not considered.

Not unlike the sulfuric acid emissions that result from automobile catalytic converters.
I know when catalytic converters first came out, sitting on a motorcycle next to an auto exhaust about three minutes at a stoplight was enough to make me sick. I don't know what was coming out of that pipe, but it wasn't good.

 A spin off of power plant closures (coal fired) and the ULSD is that corn crops are increasingly sulfur deficient. Of course, some of that may be from increased corn production for ethanol manufacture depleting soil.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2016, 09:31:43 pm »

Just put those bungwipes in a small boat a mile or more offshore with a failing motor (due to the ethanol in the fuel) and a squall coming in. It's what they did for my father--in his 80s. He can't even get E0 at a marina where he lives, because it is too close to the I-95 US301 corridor.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 09:32:04 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2016, 01:23:40 pm »
I have to buy it for my diesel pu,but I know places I can go to buy regular diesel for my loader if I want. As far as I know,you can still buy the old-fashioned diesel at marinas. Maybe not in Ca,but in other places.

And anybody with a farm can buy it in bulk and have it delivered by bulk to their diesel tanks. They don't have to pay highway taxes if they do this,so that makes it cheaper to buy just like buying it in bulk makes it cheaper to buy.

State troopers used to check diesel cars/trucks for the tell-tale dye put in farm diesel that no taxes were paid on. I know several farmers who got busted using tractor diesel in their pickups/trucks. I think it was a $250 fine back in the 1970's.

Offline thackney

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2016, 01:51:48 pm »
State troopers used to check diesel cars/trucks for the tell-tale dye put in farm diesel that no taxes were paid on. I know several farmers who got busted using tractor diesel in their pickups/trucks. I think it was a $250 fine back in the 1970's.

Generally speaking, no dyed fuel may be used in highway vehicles. For each violation, the Internal Revenue Code specifies a penalty of $1,000 or $10 per gallon, whichever is greater, plus payment of the tax. States may impose additional fines.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4941.pdf
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Offline EC

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2016, 01:56:16 pm »
Same in the UK.

Though back in the 70's/80's you could cobble together a filter, load it with peat, and it would remove the dye. Uncle used to do that. They changed the dye around '85 and he was so pissed when he got caught. :tongue2:
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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2016, 09:54:12 pm »
Either they have to come to the tractor, or the tractor has to come to them. One you pay mileage and windshield time, in addition to the tech, provided they have the part...


I meant a computer diagnostic.

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2016, 09:55:02 pm »
Generally speaking, no dyed fuel may be used in highway vehicles. For each violation, the Internal Revenue Code specifies a penalty of $1,000 or $10 per gallon, whichever is greater, plus payment of the tax. States may impose additional fines.


sounds like we need a Boston Gas Party

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2016, 04:57:51 am »
I meant a computer diagnostic.
That's great. If you can get the tractor on line. Of course you could be miles from that with a machine that won't run. (Back to either bringing Mohammed to the mountain, or the mountain to Mohammed).
In theory, through satellite communications you should be able to connect, but did you ever get the message:

Having trouble connecting to the internet?
Check our online help!

Admittedly, some problems may be able to be solved by remote access. Many, however will not.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2016, 05:11:51 am »
That is an interesting thought.  With all the CRAP that has cell-phone linkups to the Mothership...everything from refrigerators to medical devices like CPAP machines...and since the average farmer is verboten to repair what is purportedly his own property...why not at least have a cell-tower link?  Let the government-sanctioned super-smart whiz-kids just sit at their terminals, where they're happy, and diagnose and order repairs that way?  Save time; save money; the farmer no longer has to pay the technician's five hours or so drive-time to his location and back.

On units used where there is poor cell service (fewer and fewer areas now) have a mini-data-card to take the troubleshooting; and then use a computer to forward it to the Mothership via email.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2016, 06:14:34 am »
That is an interesting thought.  With all the CRAP that has cell-phone linkups to the Mothership...everything from refrigerators to medical devices like CPAP machines...and since the average farmer is verboten to repair what is purportedly his own property...why not at least have a cell-tower link?  Let the government-sanctioned super-smart whiz-kids just sit at their terminals, where they're happy, and diagnose and order repairs that way?  Save time; save money; the farmer no longer has to pay the technician's five hours or so drive-time to his location and back.

On units used where there is poor cell service (fewer and fewer areas now) have a mini-data-card to take the troubleshooting; and then use a computer to forward it to the Mothership via email.
If you look at Western North Dakota on coverage maps for cell service, you will see only one network even comes close to 'coverage' away from the pavement and sidewalks. As an oilfield wellsite geologist, I had endless grief with networks which claimed to be better than all the others but couldn't hold signal with a Wilson adjustable gain two-channel amplifier and a Yagi directional antenna 20 ft. up and aimed directly at their nearest towers.

That's some of the best available gadgetry to rope in a signal on the best coverage network in the area, and it failed. Maybe a download drive to do the job, but then the farmer is spending all day pissing around with a computer and running back and forth to the tractor...doing the very tech work the Government outlawed.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2016, 06:53:56 am »
If you look at Western North Dakota on coverage maps for cell service, you will see only one network even comes close to 'coverage' away from the pavement and sidewalks. As an oilfield wellsite geologist, I had endless grief with networks which claimed to be better than all the others but couldn't hold signal with a Wilson adjustable gain two-channel amplifier and a Yagi directional antenna 20 ft. up and aimed directly at their nearest towers.

That's some of the best available gadgetry to rope in a signal on the best coverage network in the area, and it failed. Maybe a download drive to do the job, but then the farmer is spending all day pissing around with a computer and running back and forth to the tractor...doing the very tech work the Government outlawed.

Well, any breakdown is a pain.  Better the farmer spends HIS time, or his kids' time (they'd love the opportunity to tear back and forth with the four-wheeler or the gofer pickup) between the computer, which will probably be in the barn these days anyway, and the tractor out in the field...

...then to sit and WAIT for the geek to show up in the Geek Squad truck and look geekily at it.  There's savings there.

And not every place is as isolated as North Dakota.  That's probably the broadest least-populated area outside of Alaska or Nevada...maybe Arizona.  (waves of crossing illegals notwithstanding)  There's no point in putting in service if there's no one there who NEEDS service.  Doesn't make sense to have a cell-phone tower that is in the range of two farm families and 100 head of cows, and nothing else.

I don't know.  I don't like this, one damn bit...but given that Government Hath Commanded, it would seem there'd be a more-reasonable way to make the great god government happy.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2016, 07:04:25 am »
I've looked into this story elsewhere on the forum. Cars have OBDII readers for a while. Difference is this is standardized, whereas tractors looks proprietary.

I think this is just a technicality. From forums I've perused online, plenty of farmers are still wrenching their own tractors, even the newer models, just that it's technically illegal.

Nearly all software can be hacked and this includes the software these companies build into these machines.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2016, 07:23:46 am »
Well, any breakdown is a pain.  Better the farmer spends HIS time, or his kids' time (they'd love the opportunity to tear back and forth with the four-wheeler or the gofer pickup) between the computer, which will probably be in the barn these days anyway, and the tractor out in the field...

...then to sit and WAIT for the geek to show up in the Geek Squad truck and look geekily at it.  There's savings there.

And not every place is as isolated as North Dakota.  That's probably the broadest least-populated area outside of Alaska or Nevada...maybe Arizona.  (waves of crossing illegals notwithstanding)  There's no point in putting in service if there's no one there who NEEDS service.  Doesn't make sense to have a cell-phone tower that is in the range of two farm families and 100 head of cows, and nothing else.

I don't know.  I don't like this, one damn bit...but given that Government Hath Commanded, it would seem there'd be a more-reasonable way to make the great god government happy.
I joked with the AT&T people about how I could use their coverage map in oil exploration, well over a decade ago--where they had no service, that's where we drilled. The whole Bakken boom left the sidewalk signal crowd behind up here, and those thousands of production locations have people out there daily, reporting problems, ordering parts and services, on Verizon phones.

In between those thousands of production locations, and a scattering (now) of drilling rigs, there are farms and ranches who depend on those phones, too.

Now, I understand that isn't as hot a market as New York City, where a single block can have more people than a whole county out this way, but they aren't growing food in NYC at the rate they consume it, where we have a surplus. But that takes space.

The whole problem is that the law precludes the farmer working on the damned thing. That's the basic problem. Which is back to the service tech visiting the tractor, or the tractor visiting the service tech.

Maybe we'll just have to go back to these:



 :laugh:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2016, 07:27:16 am »
I've looked into this story elsewhere on the forum. Cars have OBDII readers for a while. Difference is this is standardized, whereas tractors looks proprietary.

I think this is just a technicality. From forums I've perused online, plenty of farmers are still wrenching their own tractors, even the newer models, just that it's technically illegal.

Nearly all software can be hacked and this includes the software these companies build into these machines.
Farmers are a pretty independent lot, and will find a way. It'd just be one heck of a lot nicer if the Government didn't make it a crime to get something done without being completely beholden to the factory after you have paid for something.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2016, 07:30:50 am »

Maybe we'll just have to go back to these:



 :laugh:

You laugh.  One of those blew up in a county-fair exhibit in Ohio a few years back...killed the operator, his assistant, and a teenaged girl standing in the line of the blast.

I rather favor the horse.  Doesn't need warming up; fuel is plentiful; and the only time it blows up is if it's laying dead in the sun for a few days.

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Re: Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2016, 07:34:31 am »
You laugh.  One of those blew up in a county-fair exhibit in Ohio a few years back...killed the operator, his assistant, and a teenaged girl standing in the line of the blast.

I rather favor the horse.  Doesn't need warming up; fuel is plentiful; and the only time it blows up is if it's laying dead in the sun for a few days.

Pre safety valve steam engines are a scary thought.