Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors

[SZonian]

Farmers in Nebraska, Minnesota, Massachusetts, and New York are staging something of a mechanical revolt. They're attempting to get legislation passed in their states that would enable them, for the first time since the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, to repair their own tractors or get an independent mechanic to help.

At the root of the morass is the software that helps run modern tractors and their sensors, diagnostic tools, and other high-tech elements. If farmers so much as open the metaphorical hood to check out the computers they could be violating the federal act, reports Modern Farmer.

Mick Minchow, a Nebraska farmer for more than 40 years, is among the many who are fed up, reports Lincoln Journal Star. As it currently stands, any problem with his John Deere 8235 R requires a trip to the dealer and costs him important time.

[excerpted]

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/07/25/farmers-fight-for-right-to-repair-their-own-tractors.html

[geronl]

ridiculous laws

We need some open source competition in agricultural appliances

[roamer_1]

Massey Ferguson (or another) could come out on top if they pay attention here...
This is a death knell for Deere - Nobody can wait for a dealership when it's planting or harvesting time. Who's gonna buy 'em with this nonsense going on?

[Oceander]

ridiculous laws

We need some open source competition in agricultural appliances

I'm surprised it hasn't shown up yet - perhaps the hardware is too specialized.

[Smokin Joe]

Note that the tractor at the link is significantly smaller than the 8235R, and there are bigger ones.

Look here for an image of the sort of equipment common on wheat farms up here where farmers routinely farm several square miles  https://www.deere.com/en_CAF/products/equipment/planting_and_seeding_equipment/planting_and_seeding_equipment.page

Much of this equipment is computerized to help maximize yields by preventing skipped or double planted areas in fields.

[geronl]

I'm surprised it hasn't shown up yet - perhaps the hardware is too specialized.

I guess there aren't enough "hackers" or independent programmers with any familiarity with the equipment.

[Frank Cannon]

That's why I own one of these....



.....no computers.

[Smokin Joe]

That's why I own one of these....



.....no computers.

I remember spinning the flywheel on my grandfather's John Deere to start it--it was a rite of passage. My Great Uncle's tractors were crank start and easier. I was driving both long before I turned 10.

[JustPassinThru]

That's why I own one of these....



.....no computers.

You might do better yet with these.



I don't know how it is today; but for YEARS, the Amish, using traditional non-mechanical methods, were among the most profitable of family farmers.  No borrowed money; no tractor or equipment payments;' horses reproduce...the way they do; and what was spent on the horses is never lost.

I hadn't thought about all the microprocessors on modern tractors.  Is it that it's all proprietary?  Or is the government, that gave us ethanol in gasoline and windmills instead of reliable electricity...is this wonderful government making the microprocessors OFF LIMITS to farmer-owners?

[Frank Cannon]

I don't know how it is today; but for YEARS, the Amish, using traditional non-mechanical methods, were among the most profitable of family farmers.  No borrowed money; no tractor or equipment payments;' horses reproduce...the way they do; and what was spent on the horses is never lost.

LOL. Don't fool yourself. The Amish make their money from tourism, not farming. I had a bunch of them as customers when I was in corporate sales. They all had cars, fax machines and any other modern things needed to make money hidden in the back of their businesses. They are the biggest frauds going.

[JustPassinThru]

LOL. Don't fool yourself. The Amish make their money from tourism, not farming. I had a bunch of them as customers when I was in corporate sales. They all had cars, fax machines and any other modern things needed to make money hidden in the back of their businesses. They are the biggest frauds going.

I don't know about that, at least not across-the-board.

Where I had experience with them, they were newcomers - new spinoff colonies moving into hardscrabble farming areas of Western New York.  They'd buy farms; several at a time, the congregation self-financing; and then families would settle in.

It PO'd some locals - they'd know the previous farmers; they'd know the farmhouse was upgraded for sale, and there would be the new bathroom fixtures ripped out and put by the side of the road for pickup.  While an outhouse would appear behind the house.

There was no tourism in that area that they were offering.  No Amish Restaurants; no Amish furniture.  Nobody thought they were there.  The tourism surrounded the Finger Lakes; and inland...nobody but other farmers and the Tax Man paid attention.

They had money.  And it was obvious why - they wasted nothing.  The little resort town I worked for was taking down several old public buildings - instead of calling in a wrecker, they got one of us on the DPW who had an Amish neighbor, to approach a congregation to let them have the lumber.

They had a deconstruction bee.  Just like a barn raising but in reverse.  One day, a swarm of them are all over it...pulling off and stacking the lumber; throwing sheetrock into the roll-off dump bin; we'd allowed them a flatbed truck to take their booty away.  That was the village's only cost; and in one day they had it down to the foundation - and cleaned up, too.

Repeat several times.  In an era where lumber was eye-warping expensive (late 1970s) that was a serious win/win.

I can't vouch for all of them; but the ones I saw...while clannish and not-so-churchlike when they don't think anyone can hear...they still go in for hard work, I give them props for that.

[Smokin Joe]

You might do better yet with these.



I don't know how it is today; but for YEARS, the Amish, using traditional non-mechanical methods, were among the most profitable of family farmers.  No borrowed money; no tractor or equipment payments;' horses reproduce...the way they do; and what was spent on the horses is never lost.

I hadn't thought about all the microprocessors on modern tractors.  Is it that it's all proprietary?  Or is the government, that gave us ethanol in gasoline and windmills instead of reliable electricity...is this wonderful government making the microprocessors OFF LIMITS to farmer-owners?

The computers that run the engines control emissions, too. There is an increasing trend to make internal combustion vehicles so interlaced that the owner can't possibly repair them, and independent shops can't either, which runs you back to factory authorized repair facilities, which may or may not be competent.

Considering the problems inherent with getting a tractor that size 50 to 100 miles to a dealer for repairs, it goes well beyond a pain in the rear or a little downtime. It means loading the thing on a lowboy semi trailer, and if you have the dual wheel option, getting the wide/oversize load permits and pilot vehicle(s), depending on your state laws.  It's a long way from replacing a magneto or a set of points or plugs in the field, draining the settling bowl, checking the oil and firing it up...

[JustPassinThru]

The EPA strikes again.

What we need is STATE SECESSION.  And in Seceded States, EVERY Fuddrel Ossifer or employee...arrested and made to pay for their crimes against the public.

This is MADNESS. 

All this insanity about truck engines...never occurred to me tractor engines now fall under that same crap.  What, do they want to just STOP FARMING?  Starve the yukky white masses; give what little food there is to their BLM assassins and their beloved Moslem Bedouins?

[roamer_1]

The computers that run the engines control emissions, too. There is an increasing trend to make internal combustion vehicles so interlaced that the owner can't possibly repair them, and independent shops can't either, which runs you back to factory authorized repair facilities, which may or may not be competent.

And this legal battle over tractor 'intellectual property' is being eyed very closely by the automotive and trucking industries...

It isn't that a reasonably good mechanic can't repair them - It's that only authorized personnel can legally open the hood.

There were several trade mag articles about this last summer... Even to the point of making super-chips illegal...

And the government is in bed with them too - desiring the control they get over closed system regulating... And voila! the 'next best thing' to socialism.

[Just_Victor]

And this legal battle over tractor 'intellectual property' is being eyed very closely by the automotive and trucking industries...

It isn't that a reasonably good mechanic can't repair them - It's that only authorized personnel can legally open the hood.

There were several trade mag articles about this last summer... Even to the point of making super-chips illegal...

And the government is in bed with them too - desiring the control they get over closed system regulating... And voila! the 'next best thing' to socialism.

And that is the problem in a nutshell.  The lobbyist for the "authorized personnel" won the fight in Congress when the law passed.  This is nothing but a protectionist domestic policy created by people that Ayn Rand called the "aristocracy of pull."

[JustPassinThru]

Simple solution in the end.  Leave the farming to the people who have the copyrights, authorizations and legal access.

Get OUT of farming.  The government demands huge sums of rent, in land taxes; they insist on myriad regulations on how land can be used; and the equipment is not only impossibly expensive, it cannot be fixed except by Authorized Personnel at highway-robbery rates.

Find other work.  Or no work...get a Foo Stam card and drink Boone's Farm all day.  Like Democrats.

And let the nation starve.  Out of collapse, MAYBE, something more aligned with our traditions will come out.

[Smokin Joe]

Simple solution in the end.  Leave the farming to the people who have the copyrights, authorizations and legal access.

Get OUT of farming.  The government demands huge sums of rent, in land taxes; they insist on myriad regulations on how land can be used; and the equipment is not only impossibly expensive, it cannot be fixed except by Authorized Personnel at highway-robbery rates.

Find other work.  Or no work...get a Foo Stam card and drink Boone's Farm all day.  Like Democrats.

And let the nation starve.  Out of collapse, MAYBE, something more aligned with our traditions will come out.

Frankly, that is what the regulations were written to do. Drive the Family farm out of business so outfits like Monsanto, ConAgra, etc. can take over. The corporation controls the food supply.

A bunch of the GMO fights have been over patent rights when GMO crops pollinate non GMO crops in adjacent fields. The majority of the lawsuits are over patent infringement because the farmer who planted non GMO crops now has GMO, whether they wanted it or not, especially if that farmer holds back part of the crop for seed.
Most crops are hybrids, developed for disease/drought/insect resistance anyway, and seed loans can run into six figures for a wheat farm, for instance, planting over ten square miles of crops.

Farming isn't just a job, folks, it (like ranching) is a way of life. Have decisions made in a corporate board room thousands of miles away, and they may not work out so well as those made by people who have been farming that land for generations. The ensuing famine affects not only the US, but international trade as well.

[JustPassinThru]

Some things cannot be fought.  Corporations control many other things, too, and it's not the end of the world.  Corporations are just organizational structures - and they're filled with, and run by, and run with, and run for, people.

You would argue that family farming is more efficient, and I'd agree.  But like so many other bad ideas, this one needs to be taken to its dead end...else you'll be fighting it until they win and then lose.

I don't have a problem with them trying to protect their patents.  If you don't want to use engineered crops...do like the Amish do.

If you can't make money like the Amish do, and you don't want to deal with patented, engineered crops that do not seed...time to find another line of work.  It is what it is.

[Smokin Joe]

Some things cannot be fought.  Corporations control many other things, too, and it's not the end of the world.  Corporations are just organizational structures - and they're filled with, and run by, and run with, and run for, people.

You would argue that family farming is more efficient, and I'd agree.  But like so many other bad ideas, this one needs to be taken to its dead end...else you'll be fighting it until they win and then lose.

I don't have a problem with them trying to protect their patents.  If you don't want to use engineered crops...do like the Amish do.

If you can't make money like the Amish do, and you don't want to deal with patented, engineered crops that do not seed...time to find another line of work.  It is what it is.

You can't just do like the Amish do. If your crop is in a field next to a field containing the GMO crop and the pollen crosses the road with the wind, you are the one who gets sued. When you consider there are square miles of these crops, there is more than enough pollen to pollute your crop, and you are the one who gets in trouble for unwanted fertilization.

If your neighbor has a dog who jumps the fence and breeds your dog, would you want to pay the stud fee?

[JustPassinThru]

You can't just do like the Amish do. If your crop is in a field next to a field containing the GMO crop and the pollen crosses the road with the wind, you are the one who gets sued. When you consider there are square miles of these crops, there is more than enough pollen to pollute your crop, and you are the one who gets in trouble for unwanted fertilization.

If your neighbor has a dog who jumps the fence and breeds your dog, would you want to pay the stud fee?

Look, I get it.  It's not fair.

Nothing in life is fair anymore.  It's not fair that I cannot save money and get any kind of a return...how will I retire?  But it is what it is; this is what Statist tyranny and unchecked Central Government takes us to.

If you can't farm, don't farm.  I used to be a truck driver.  There used to be money in it.  Now there is NOTHING but heavy, micromanaging, insane regulations - and the pay has disappeared.  Truck-driving is what a lot of Pakis and Mexicans who speak no inglez do.  Pay is lower than in fast-food.

I gave up my CDL years ago; and if I have to drive a truck to live...I'll rob banks first.  Either I'll get away, or I'll go to the Federal Penitentiary - and STILL live better than an over-the-road trucker.

Farming, too.  Government destroys lives.  Just ask someone who lived through the Third Reich.

[sneakypete]

Massey Ferguson (or another) could come out on top if they pay attention here...
This is a death knell for Deere - Nobody can wait for a diealership when it's planting or harvesting time. Who's gonna buy 'em with this nonsense going on?

You don't have to wait. Every dealership I know of will be more than happy to send a mechanic to where the equipment is,and have them repair it right there.

Last time I called a New Holland dealer about repairs to me front end loader,I was quoted a price of 150 bucks a hour,with the time starting when the mechanic leaves the dealership a hour away,and if he has to spend any time running back and forth to the dealership to get tools or additional parts,that time is added to the bill,too. This was about 10 years ago,so I suspect the price is higher now.

Doesn't take you long to figure out you really,REALLY need the factory service manuals because getting a big tractor or other piece of farm equipment delivered to the dealer for repairs at his location ain't cheap,either. I have a 1 ton pu and a 5 ton equipment trailer that I used to haul mine to the dealership,but even with a smaller front end loader like mine,the trailer and truck were marginal from a safety perspective. Don't even think about loading a larger piece up like a combine because it ain't gonna happen short of a tractor trailer,special permits,and a lead and chase car with flashing lights.

Now you know why this is such a big deal for the farmers. We are talking serious money here,and serious loss of money while the equipment is down because they only have a short time window to either plant or load their crops. I can only imagine what the JD and other dealers are now charging to diagnose and repair systems controlled by computers. My old loader is a 1993 model,and lights and an alternator to charge the battery are the only electronics on it. Everything else is hydraulic.

[sneakypete]

Note that the tractor at the link is significantly smaller than the 8235R, and there are bigger ones.

Look here for an image of the sort of equipment common on wheat farms up here where farmers routinely farm several square miles  https://www.deere.com/en_CAF/products/equipment/planting_and_seeding_equipment/planting_and_seeding_equipment.page

Much of this equipment is computerized to help maximize yields by preventing skipped or double planted areas in fields.

Even the smaller equipment of today have computer controls for precision rows,plants,and picking. They run off of a wi-fi GPS connection. LOTS of farm equipment today on even small farms,never mind the monster mid-western farms,costs more than the farmer's house,and is only used a couple of months a year at most.

If you have enough money to buy a farm and the equipment needed to run it,you have no freaking business working.

[sneakypete]

http://www.chatstractors.com/fordlogo.jpg[/img]

.....no computers.

I had a red belly. Somebody offered me stupid money for it,so I sold it and now have a 57 Ford 645 small tractor. Don't use it much since I bought the 93 New Holland 345 D,though. Tried to sell the 645 for 2 grand twice,and had deals,and then the buyers offered me up to $1,000 less than the agreed price the day they showed up to take it off. I guess they must have thought I needed the money and would be dazzled by 10 or 12 $100 bills. They were wrong. It's paid for and it doesn't eat nothing,so it can just sit there for all I care. I might even start using it again once I no longer need the 345 D and sell it.

[Smokin Joe]

Look, I get it.  It's not fair.

Nothing in life is fair anymore.  It's not fair that I cannot save money and get any kind of a return...how will I retire?  But it is what it is; this is what Statist tyranny and unchecked Central Government takes us to.

If you can't farm, don't farm.  I used to be a truck driver.  There used to be money in it.  Now there is NOTHING but heavy, micromanaging, insane regulations - and the pay has disappeared.  Truck-driving is what a lot of Pakis and Mexicans who speak no inglez do.  Pay is lower than in fast-food.

I gave up my CDL years ago; and if I have to drive a truck to live...I'll rob banks first.  Either I'll get away, or I'll go to the Federal Penitentiary - and STILL live better than an over-the-road trucker.

Farming, too.  Government destroys lives.  Just ask someone who lived through the Third Reich.

You can still farm, but you have to change crops. Now that might sound simple, but if you are set up to plant, harvest, handle and store wheat, and switch to canola or sunflowers or barley, for instance, you will require different equipment to handle that seed, and to harvest and store those crops. That gets expensive (six figures or more), and besides, if your family has been growing wheat for a couple of generations, you know what works best. Another crop means a whole new learning curve, too, and yes, the government will have its fingers in that, too

It isn't like when I was a kid, when we grew tobacco, and if it looked like tobacco wasn't going to be a good crop to grow that year, put in potatoes or something else instead, but those were far smaller fields (only a few acres), and not the massive multi-section (a section is 640 acres +/-, a square mile) operations of this region.

The place to drive truck is the oil patch, BTW, usually shorter hauls with liquids and HAZMAT, hauling anything from crude oil to drilling mud to fuel or fresh/salt water. There are 'dry' loads, too. That generally pays fairly well. The rig moving industry lost 2/3-3/4 of the market when 'walking' rigs came out, drilling on multiwell pads. And the whole industry purt'near imploded when oil prices dropped, but anything associated with oil production is ongoing, and that oil and salt water is commonly hauled at least short distances by truck. The one place on shore where the hit hasn't been so bad in the Permian Basin Area in Texas.

 OTR, from what I have heard, is where drivers who aren't owner operators get screwed.

[sneakypete]

You might do better yet with these.



I don't know how it is today; but for YEARS, the Amish, using traditional non-mechanical methods, were among the most profitable of family farmers.  No borrowed money; no tractor or equipment payments;' horses reproduce...the way they do; and what was spent on the horses is never lost.<<

Don't believe that for a minute. Their farms are always profitable because they owe no money on them and mostly don't pay any labor wages because they work their children. There is no way in hell a manual labor or mule system can compete with machinery,period.

I hadn't thought about all the microprocessors on modern tractors.  Is it that it's all proprietary?  Or is the government, that gave us ethanol in gasoline and windmills instead of reliable electricity...is this wonderful government making the microprocessors OFF LIMITS to farmer-owners?<<

Farm equipment is all off-road equipment so they don't really come under the highway regulations,and it's all diesel-powered,so ethanol and similar crap doesn't come into play.