Author Topic: NeverTrump Now More Than Ever (Read 6146 times)

Mesaclone · « **Reply #50 on:** July 22, 2016, 07:24:33 pm »

Every vote is a moral compromise...as nobody agrees 100% with any candidate on every single issue. Which means that in every case, you are voting for someone with whom you disagree. So the question is a matter of degree, how much you disagree...meaning every vote is a compromise rather than an exercise in perfect moral rigidity. And yes, in such situations anyone with common sense makes a calculation when they are faced with two candidates for one position...particularly a position as critical as the presidency. Knowing that one of the two (Hillary) will cause irreversible damage to the Republic and cement a liberal agenda for the next two generations via liberal SCJ's....means voting for the GOP candidate is not a moral lapse, but actually a moral necessity.

Here's an example. All interest you have to pay is a necessary evil, so when you choose between a 4% mortgage vs a 6% one you have chosen the lesser of two evils. As any intelligent person would do. Of course, we'd all love 0% interest but that doesn't happen in the real world...we always have to choose that which is least negative for our finances. Call that "evil", but in reality is simply choosing the best available option.

So yes, it almost always makes sense to choose the lesser of two "evils"...particularly when one evil (Hillary) is vastly more harmful than the other. The garbage about "well, they're both still evil" is a cop out...when you have only two choices (in effect) and one is much, much worse than the other. You have the right to ride your moral high horse and allow the vastly worse evil to run rampant, or you can mitigate any potential harm by choosing what is clearly a more benign choice.

And let's be clear here, what we're talking about are degrees of disagreement with candidates rather than genuine evil. This is not a choice between two sins, its simply picking someone who you agree and or disagree to a greater/lesser extent than another candidate. Everything you assert beyond that is simply drama and weak justification for being childish and petty.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #51 on:** July 22, 2016, 07:28:02 pm »

There are some issues which are deal-breakers. I cannot in good conscience vote for a candidate who supports abortion for instance.

Oh, poo!

Well, Donald and Hillary are out.

No lesser evil there, just evil. And that's just one issue.

No dilemma, no moral quandary, just NO.
Ahh. The truth really does set you free.

Mesaclone · « **Reply #52 on:** July 22, 2016, 07:32:10 pm »

Quote from: Smokin Joe on July 22, 2016, 07:28:02 pm

There are some issues which are deal-breakers. I cannot in good conscience vote for a candidate who supports abortion for instance.

Oh, poo!

Well, Donald and Hillary are out.

No lesser evil there, just evil. And that's just one issue.

No dilemma, no moral quandary, just NO.
Ahh. The truth really does set you free.

Sure there's a quandary.

One appoints more Ruth Bader Ginsbergs and the other appoints Antonin Scalias...and both are held within a political spectrum by the necessities of party affiliation (which neither can shrug off without losing the ability achieve anything). I realize you WANT to tell yourself these things are moral equivalents, to ease your choice of neither which is driven by anger...but they are far from equivalent in the policies and SCJ choices they will make. And that holds true whether you think one or both are lying about their positions...because the need for popular AND party support bind both their hands to a parameter close to their stated agendas.

If you can't see that, you really don't know how government and politics works...even presidents cannot achieve without support. That's just inarguable for anyone not consumed with anger and/or moral narcissism.

Victoria33 · « **Reply #53 on:** July 22, 2016, 07:38:46 pm »

Quote from: Fantom on July 21, 2016, 05:51:16 pm

Right, I was just thinking that this is what it must have been like in 1928 Germany.

As for Ted ..I just sent him a contribution.

That's a good idea - I will do that, too.

Hoodat · « **Reply #54 on:** July 22, 2016, 07:43:57 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 07:24:33 pm

Here's an example. All interest you have to pay is a necessary evil

Interest is not evil nor is it necessary.

Victoria33 · « **Reply #55 on:** July 22, 2016, 07:50:47 pm »

Quote from: Ghost Bear on July 21, 2016, 11:56:40 pm

I don't know what part of "vote your conscience" is so difficult. If your conscience allows you to vote for Donald Trump, then do so.
If, like mine, it doesn't, then don't vote for him. Isn't that the way it's always been in the privacy of the voting booth? Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?

You make too much sense. That isn't allowed by the Trumpcult (a cult is a group of people who think the same). I have boiled it down to: I think God would not vote for either one, so I won't, either. By the way, Trump never mentioned God in his speech. I think that is because he thinks he IS God on earth.

geronl · « **Reply #56 on:** July 22, 2016, 07:52:57 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 06:40:48 am

Actually it amuses me. This is the perfect example of a delusional feedback loop...its quite interesting to observe. All of your premises are based on either outright falsehoods or grotesquely subjective twistings of reality. You take all of that and lump into some bizarre conception that you are under siege, and that others are trying to take away your freedom of action or thought. Its an amazing thing. So I'm not tweaking you as much as I'm just enjoying seeing some psychological concepts put into action.

The fact that you think LGBT rights, bigger government and universal child care are winning formulas for a Republican tells me there is enough delusion around to make elephants fly.

austingirl · « **Reply #57 on:** July 22, 2016, 07:59:28 pm »

Quote from: geronl on July 22, 2016, 07:52:57 pm

The fact that you think LGBT rights, bigger government and universal child care are winning formulas for a Republican tells me there is enough delusion around to make elephants fly.

The delusional feedback loop and echo chamber is all Trump supporters. They continue to react with disbelief to those who stand on conservative principles and revere the Constitution and who refuse to support the vindictive narcissist buffoon.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #58 on:** July 22, 2016, 08:20:23 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 07:32:10 pm

Sure there's a quandary.

One appoints more Ruth Bader Ginsbergs and the other appoints Antonin Scalias...and both are held within a political spectrum by the necessities of party affiliation (which neither can shrug off without losing the ability achieve anything). I realize you WANT to tell yourself these things are moral equivalents, to ease your choice of neither which is driven by anger...but they are far from equivalent in the policies and SCJ choices they will make. And that holds true whether you think one or both are lying about their positions...because the need for popular AND party support bind both their hands to a parameter close to their stated agendas.

If you can't see that, you really don't know how government and politics works...even presidents cannot achieve without support. That's just inarguable for anyone not consumed with anger and/or moral narcissism.

It is really this simple I will not support any candidate or any party which supports taking money from me at gunpoint and using that money to support an operation which shreds babies for fun and profit. There is no moral quandary at all. Maybe you are conflicted because you do.

I understand how government works, and that is why I want a lot less of it. Especially at the Federal Level where it was never intended to be so large.

Government has been, in my lifetime, with rare exception a choice of flavors of shit sandwich. Once in a while, someone sneaks some baloney or tuna salad onto the table, but most of the shit sandwich eaters immediately have a fit and have it removed. You get the bill for the 'meal', regardless of whether you sanction the menu. If you don't pay, thugs with guns will come and take and sell your stuff. If you have anything decent they want, it sells for pennies on the dollar and they get it. If not their friends get first dibs. If selling your stuff didn't pay the whole bill you owe for all the shit sandwiches people are being fed, you are imprisoned, which is supposed to pay for the shit sandwiches somehow.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #59 on:** July 22, 2016, 08:22:44 pm »

Quote from: Hoodat on July 22, 2016, 07:43:57 pm

Interest is not evil nor is it necessary.

Yep. The more humbly you live, the more likely you are to be able to pay cash for the things you need.

geronl · « **Reply #60 on:** July 22, 2016, 08:26:22 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 07:32:10 pm

Sure there's a quandary.

There is no quandary on the issue of life and other things.

Victoria33 · « **Reply #61 on:** July 22, 2016, 08:57:27 pm »

Quote from: INVAR on July 22, 2016, 07:04:25 am

Spirits of abject evil, discord and hate have been unleashed upon the land with our Fundamental Transformation and the rise of Trump.
It is the Lord's Judgement, and we have been given over to the full tyranny of men because we refused to be governed by God as a culture.

I agree. God sees Sodom here now, and may allow a dictator, Trump, to bring in the likes of what happened to Russia and Germany - no free speech anymore, curtailment of other freedoms if the citizens criticize the dictator. Be silent and live your life privately, speaking to only those you absolutely trust. We are better off with Clinton than slavery of our thoughts. Movie 1984, book/movie Atlas Shrugged - Where is John Galt? We go Galt if Trump wins.

kjam22 · « **Reply #62 on:** July 22, 2016, 09:04:30 pm »

Quote from: Victoria33 on July 22, 2016, 08:57:27 pm

I agree. God sees Sodom here now, and may allow a dictator, Trump, to bring in the likes of what happened to Russia and Germany - no free speech anymore, curtailment of other freedoms if the citizens criticize the dictator. Be silent and live your life privately, speaking to only those you absolutely trust. We are better off with Clinton than slavery of our thoughts. Movie 1984, book/movie Atlas Shrugged - Where is John Galt? We go Galt if Trump wins.

Cruz gave his speech because he knows with Hillary we will lose more of our freedoms...... And with King Trumpy all of our freedoms may be taken from us. Starting with the right to criticize the government.

txradioguy · « **Reply #63 on:** July 22, 2016, 09:36:21 pm »

Trump has already said he doesn't care if the Republicans hold on to Congress or not in November. So let's just put to rest right now this myth that Trump is going to appoint the next Scalia or Alito to the bench.

With Schumer in charge of the Senate...anyone to the right of Soto-Mayor is dead on arrival.

EasyAce · « **Reply #64 on:** July 22, 2016, 09:49:16 pm »

Quote from: bilo on July 21, 2016, 10:51:19 pm

I've come to the realization that no matter who wins it's going to be a very rough 4 yrs.

They told us the house was burning how many times?

And what do we get to fight the fire? A choice between arsonists.

This election is going to prove how right H.L. Mencken was when he said democracy was the fine
art of running the circus from the monkey cage. Except that actual monkeys would be less of a
threat to what remains of our freedom than Donaldus Minimus or Hilarious Rodent Clinton would
be.

"None of These Candidates," which my state has as a ballot option, just keeps getting better
looking every day. But if my state had a write-in option, I'd be voting . . .

Mesaclone · « **Reply #65 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:39:47 pm »

Quote from: Hoodat on July 22, 2016, 07:43:57 pm

Interest is not evil nor is it necessary.

That's the point, neither are the politicians in this race. They may be wrong, in Hillary's case very wrong, but they are by no means evil. Believing that they are is a pretty sure sign you've lost touch with reality.

Mesaclone · « **Reply #66 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:42:55 pm »

Quote from: geronl on July 22, 2016, 08:26:22 pm

There is no quandary on the issue of life and other things.

Good thing our nominee is openly pro-life and that same plank is in the party platform. Not so for the other party and candidate...not to mention you get wildly liberal SCJ''s with Hillary who will against life. You make my point for me, that voting for Trump is a must if you are pro-life.

Doug Loss · « **Reply #67 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:43:45 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 07:32:10 pm

One appoints more Ruth Bader Ginsbergs and the other appoints Antonin Scalias...and both are held within a political spectrum by the necessities of party affiliation (which neither can shrug off without losing the ability achieve anything). I realize you WANT to tell yourself these things are moral equivalents, to ease your choice of neither which is driven by anger...but they are far from equivalent in the policies and SCJ choices they will make. And that holds true whether you think one or both are lying about their positions...because the need for popular AND party support bind both their hands to a parameter close to their stated agendas.

If you can't see that, you really don't know how government and politics works...even presidents cannot achieve without support. That's just inarguable for anyone not consumed with anger and/or moral narcissism.

Let's be blunt. Neither is going to appoint more Scalias to the court. You imagine Trump will do what you think he should do, when all the evidence is that he'll do whatever his whims dictate to him, and those seem most often to align with the political left. If you can't see that, you're incredibly naive.

Idaho_Cowboy · « **Reply #68 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:44:09 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 10:39:47 pm

That's the point, neither are the politicians in this race. They may be wrong, in Hillary's case very wrong, but they are by no means evil. Believing that they are is a pretty sure sign you've lost touch with reality.

What more does Hillary have to do before you think she might be Evil. I suppose you might be baiting me to say this so in an attempt to draw a comparison to Trump. If so well played.

Benghazi, the servers, and a long history are enough for me to say Hillary is slam dunk evil.

Trump is good buds with the Clinton's so that revealing too.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #69 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:44:37 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 10:42:55 pm

Good thing our nominee is openly pro-life and that same plank is in the party platform. Not so for the other party and candidate...not to mention you get wildly liberal SCJ''s with Hillary who will against life. You make my point for me, that voting for Trump is a must if you are pro-life.

You must have missed his accolades for Planned Parenthood and his pledge to fund them even more. You know, the outfit that was selling parts of aborted babies?

Idaho_Cowboy · « **Reply #70 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:44:51 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 10:42:55 pm

Good thing our nominee is openly pro-life and that same plank is in the party platform. Not so for the other party and candidate...not to mention you get wildly liberal SCJ''s with Hillary who will against life. You make my point for me, that voting for Trump is a must if you are pro-life.

Not counting all the wonderful things Planned Parenthood does...

truth_seeker · « **Reply #71 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:45:37 pm »

Quote from: INVAR on July 22, 2016, 07:04:25 am

Spirits of abject evil, discord and hate have been unleashed upon the land with our Fundamental Transformation and the rise of Trump.

It is the Lord's Judgement, and we have been given over to the full tyranny of men because we refused to be governed by God as a culture.

I have been of the opinion we suffered at the hands of 7 1/2 years of evil from Obama, and worried about more of the same from Hillary.

Thanks for setting me straight, and making your "thinking" clear.

Doug Loss · « **Reply #72 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:45:52 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 10:39:47 pm

That's the point, neither are the politicians in this race. They may be wrong, in Hillary's case very wrong, but they are by no means evil. Believing that they are is a pretty sure sign you've lost touch with reality.

And in Trumpspeak, "lost touch with reality" means "sees things clearly, as we don't want them to."

Mesaclone · « **Reply #73 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:46:21 pm »

Quote from: Victoria33 on July 22, 2016, 08:57:27 pm

I agree. God sees Sodom here now, and may allow a dictator, Trump, to bring in the likes of what happened to Russia and Germany - no free speech anymore, curtailment of other freedoms if the citizens criticize the dictator. Be silent and live your life privately, speaking to only those you absolutely trust. We are better off with Clinton than slavery of our thoughts. Movie 1984, book/movie Atlas Shrugged - Where is John Galt? We go Galt if Trump wins.

What planet are you living on. You have complete free speech rights, which you are displaying right now. As for what God sees, who knew he decided to tell you what it is HE thinks and sees. Atlas Shrugged is my favorite book...and is precisely why we should all vote Trump rather than Clinton. His view of economic freedom is radically more "free" than is hers. It is not without flaw, nothing is, but it is all about unleashing capitalism and ensuring our trade deals hold our trading partners to also practicing the same.

Doug Loss · « **Reply #74 on:** July 22, 2016, 10:47:07 pm »

Quote from: Mesaclone on July 22, 2016, 10:42:55 pm

Good thing our nominee is openly pro-life and that same plank is in the party platform. Not so for the other party and candidate...not to mention you get wildly liberal SCJ''s with Hillary who will against life. You make my point for me, that voting for Trump is a must if you are pro-life.

Bull. Trump mouths the words occasionally, but his word is not to be trusted, as has been amply demonstrated, over and over.