Germany Votes To Abandon Most Green Energy Subsidies

[thackney]

Germany Votes To Abandon Most Green Energy Subsidies
http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/10/germany-votes-to-abandon-most-green-energy-subsidies/
07/10/2016

Germany’s legislature voted Friday to sharply cut back on subsidies and other financial incentives supporting green energy due to the strain wind and solar power placed on the country’s electricity grid.

Germany’s government plans to replace most of the subsidies for local green energy with a system of competitive auctions where the cheapest electricity wins. The average German pays 39 cents per kilowatt-hour for electricity due to intense fiscal support for green energy. The average American only spends 10.4 cents per kilowatt-hour.

Germany’s wind and solar power systems have provided too much power at unpredictable times, which damaged the power grid and made the system vulnerable to blackouts. Grid operators paid companies $548 million to shutter turbines to fix the problem, according to a survey by Wirtschaftswoche of Germany’s largest power companies.

The German government plans to cap the total amount of wind energy at 40 to 45 percent of national capacity, according to a report published earlier this month by the German newspaper Berliner Zeitung. Germany will get rid of  6,000 megawatts of wind power by 2019.

[r9etb]

Germany’s wind and solar power systems have provided too much power at unpredictable times, which damaged the power grid and made the system vulnerable to blackouts.

Which speaks to ridiculously inadequate design -- generation without storage, and a straight feed into the grid. 

[thackney]

Which speaks to ridiculously inadequate design -- generation without storage, and a straight feed into the grid.

Actually, I don't believe that statement.  I would like to hear more discussion of the claimed damage to believe it was true.

[r9etb]

Actually, I don't believe that statement.  I would like to hear more discussion of the claimed damage to believe it was true.

I tend to agree with you on this.  "German engineering" is rightly a term of praise, and if somebody like me can see the problem then surely they could do so as well. 

Still, the presence of a significant (something like 30%?) and unpredictable power source on a grid is an extremely difficult problem to solve.  Sudden drops could easily cause blackouts; and in the absence of a rapid-response centralized control I could imagine that surges would be inevitable when the wind changed.

Feeding the grid from storage would address both of these, of course -- and maybe the Germans do that.  Or maybe they don't, which makes the problem that much more difficult.

[thackney]

Still, the presence of a significant (something like 30%?) and unpredictable power source on a grid is an extremely difficult problem to solve.  Sudden drops could easily cause blackouts; and in the absence of a rapid-response centralized control I could imagine that surges would be inevitable when the wind changed.

First, let me explain I'm an electrical engineer, specialized in power system, started life in the utility business.

The predictability isn't zero.  All the wind and sun in the country doesn't disappear at once.  It does cost more to have greater spinning reserve connected. 

As for surges, electric power relaying provides protection against overvoltage just as undervoltage.

The grid is more susceptible to localized outages.  But large power plants tripping off-line is something that happens (too often); the grid is operated to deal with most it without blackouts.  I've followed the subject quite a bit.  I haven't found anything discussing damage from a technical journal.   

[r9etb]

First, let me explain I'm an electrical engineer, specialized in power system, started life in the utility business.

You're far better qualified than I am, then. 

[thackney]

You're far better qualified than I am, then.

I'm not saying it cannot happen, but it would take more going wrong than just more unexpected wind & sun.  Some normal protection would have to fail.

[truth_seeker]

I think battery technology and maybe decentralization will both be parts of overall improvements in electrical power usage.

Tesla is not investing so much in the Reno battery facility, for nothing. Some systems have the batteries in vehicles, also serving as a source to power a home.

An article yesterday about a researcher's discovery at UCI, told of battery improvement, for example. 

People in my area, can generate almost all the electricity they use, from rooftop solar. (although not if they use heated pools and air conditioning).

Scoffers will scoff. Contrary to typical "true conservative" stereotypes, a variety op people are adopting hybrid vehicles.

[thackney]

I think battery technology and maybe decentralization will both be parts of overall improvements in electrical power usage.

Tesla is not investing so much in the Reno battery facility, for nothing. Some systems have the batteries in vehicles, also serving as a source to power a home.

An article yesterday about a researcher's discovery at UCI, told of battery improvement, for example. 

People in my area, can generate almost all the electricity they use, from rooftop solar. (although not if they use heated pools and air conditioning).

Scoffers will scoff. Contrary to typical "true conservative" stereotypes, a variety op people are adopting hybrid vehicles.

What areas provide enough solar power yet do not normally have air conditioning?

[geronl]

I tend to agree with you on this.  "German engineering" is rightly a term of praise, and if somebody like me can see the problem then surely they could do so as well. 

The damage was caused by politics

[truth_seeker]

What areas provide enough solar power yet do not normally have air conditioning?

My area. Southern California coastal strip. Mediterranean climate. (if you drive 20 miles inland the daytime summer high is 10-20 F higher much of the summer)

Granted people have become accustomed to greater and greater degrees of perfect comfort, so there are people who would use air a small amount of time.

But I have lived within one mile of the ocean for 50 years, never with A/C or a pool.

Our monthly electric bill is far below the amount at which they claim the system will pay for itself, subsidies included.

Therefore in a non-economic physical science manner, it would work for me. But in an economic manner, it would require that I pay MORE to have the psychic "benefit," of clean renewable energy. 

[thackney]

My area. Southern California coastal strip. Mediterranean climate. (if you drive 20 miles inland the daytime summer high is 10-20 F higher much of the summer)

Granted people have become accustomed to greater and greater degrees of perfect comfort, so there are people who would use air a small amount of time.

But I have lived within one mile of the ocean for 50 years, never with A/C or a pool.

Our monthly electric bill is far below the amount at which they claim the system will pay for itself, subsidies included.

Therefore in a non-economic physical science manner, it would work for me. But in an economic manner, it would require that I pay MORE to have the psychic "benefit," of clean renewable energy.

Thanks.  Living in the Houston, Texas area, it is hard to imaging life without A/C, although I don't mind working/playing outside in the heat.

[truth_seeker]

Thanks.  Living in the Houston, Texas area, it is hard to imaging life without A/C, although I don't mind working/playing outside in the heat.

There are a few weeks during the summer, when we need fans for certain. I have never lived in a house with A/C.

My office is across the street from the ocean, and has neither A/C or heat. In the coldest part of the winter we are careful to keep doors and windows closed, and a couple of people have electric space heaters. Not me.

When they try to sell me the solar panel system, they ask how high is your electric bill. I stop them right there. I know they are looking for $100-125 as a breakeven point. Mine is far below that.

It is 76 F right now at 4:40 pm (down from high of 77 F), heading for a low overnight of 65 F.

If you can become accustomed to suffering through days and nights between 65 and 75 F for months, you will be okay here.

December is high 63 F to low 49 F, on average, the coldest month. Then we must suffer wearing sweaters.

[geronl]

It is 76 F right now at 4:40 pm (down from high of 77 F), heading for a low overnight of 65 F.

If you can become accustomed to suffering through days and nights between 65 and 75 F for months, you will be okay here.

December is high 63 F to low 49 F, on average, the coldest month. Then we must suffer wearing sweaters.

poor things, suffering like that... lol

[Fishrrman]

From the article:
"Germany’s government plans to replace most of the subsidies for local green energy with a system of competitive auctions where the cheapest electricity wins."

In that case, wouldn't coal "win" every time?

If not, why not?

[geronl]

From the article:
"Germany’s government plans to replace most of the subsidies for local green energy with a system of competitive auctions where the cheapest electricity wins."

In that case, wouldn't coal "win" every time?

If not, why not?

Not if coal is outlawed and made less competitive by government fiat.

Just because electric companies can compete does not mean they'll be allowed to truly compete.

[thackney]

If you can become accustomed to suffering through days and nights between 65 and 75 F for months, you will be okay here.

December is high 63 F to low 49 F, on average, the coldest month. Then we must suffer wearing sweaters.

Suffering?  We spend a lot of the summer with temperatures in the 90s and up with the humidity approaching and occasionally above 90 as well.

Most of the country world doesn't enjoy the climate you have. 

[thackney]

From the article:
"Germany’s government plans to replace most of the subsidies for local green energy with a system of competitive auctions where the cheapest electricity wins."

In that case, wouldn't coal "win" every time?

If not, why not?

Government regulations make coal more expensive.  Some coal plant spend 1/3 of the electricity they produce within the plant to operate equipment that includes scrubbers and other emissions systems.  Combine that with a thermal efficiency that is lacking and the cost of the coal can be half the cost of Natural Gas and still have NatGas producing cheaper electricity.

http://www.powermag.com/understanding-coal-power-plant-heat-rate-and-efficiency/

[r9etb]

Government regulations make coal more expensive.  Some coal plant spend 1/3 of the electricity they produce within the plant to operate equipment that includes scrubbers and other emissions systems.  Combine that with a thermal efficiency that is lacking and the cost of the coal can be half the cost of Natural Gas and still have NatGas producing cheaper electricity.

To be fair, though, coal-burning is a filthy process and it's very much to our benefit that some effort -- even significant effort -- is put into cleaning it up.  There is a balance, of course: a point of diminishing returns, and I think the EPA has taken us well past it.