Author Topic: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates  (Read 4394 times)

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Offline Emjay

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2016, 06:43:32 pm »
I don't understand the panic over this situation.

Months ago we were talking about the possibility of a contested convention.  Nobody was panicking.

I think it is the trumpsters who are frantic at the thought of their Chosen One losing the nomination.

No one else sees this as a dire calamity.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2016, 06:46:10 pm »
No one else sees this as a dire calamity.

Can't speak for anyone else, but to me, the dire calamity would be a failure to oust Trump....

Offline LadyLiberty

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2016, 07:03:44 pm »
Quote
someone who hasn't a clue about how the halls of Washington work, nor cares to to co-operate to get these things actually done quickly, ....rather Trump does get in even his own way let alone the way this nation needs to go if he gets to Washington.....he'll be tripping all over his own feet, for sure, and that over others as well...he doesn't know that game nor the landmines.......this is why there's such a push to prevent him in power. There's no time for Trumps "show" in Washington.....

Being the leader of the free world is the last place to rely on "on the job" training.

Offline Emjay

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2016, 07:19:09 pm »
Can't speak for anyone else, but to me, the dire calamity would be a failure to oust Trump....

Amen to that !!
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2016, 07:27:31 pm »
One precedent is here: https://ballotpedia.org/Democratic_Party_of_U.S._v._Wisconsin_ex_rel._La_Follette.  The key provision (which refers also to a separate precedent) is here:

As it pertains to state laws in Virginia and elsewhere, the lawsuit seems to me to be a natural extension of this ruling. Party rules may compel delegates in various ways without Constitutional difficulty; but the point of the lawsuit is apparently to show that States may not compel a certain action within a political party. 

Having the law question out of the way, the question then boils down to a fight between the primacy of national vs. state party rules.  It seems to me that a national convention is precisely the place to decide such things.

My understanding of Cousins v Wigoda is that it answers the question of whether states can compel their delegates to vote in a certain way.  The delegates being of a private organization (the Republican party) cannot be compelled by the state to vote in a particular way or come in conflict with 1A.

National vs state party rules should seem fairly easy to resolve.  The national party sets the framework for the state party is run, including the number of delegates that each state is allocated.  We saw this year that the national rules affected Colorado and its decision to have a caucus instead of a primary.  The precedence is there throughout that national party rules supersede state.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2016, 07:30:24 pm »
Being the leader of the free world is the last place to rely on "on the job" training.

As has been amply and with great bloodshed demonstrated over the past 7.5 years....

Offline r9etb

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2016, 07:32:48 pm »
My understanding of Cousins v Wigoda is that it answers the question of whether states can compel their delegates to vote in a certain way.  The delegates being of a private organization (the Republican party) cannot be compelled by the state to vote in a particular way or come in conflict with 1A.

Right.  But the previous cases had to do with state laws concerning seating delegates, rather than state laws concerning how those delegates will vote.  I think that's the purpose of the Virginia lawsuit - to make it specific.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2016, 07:49:32 pm »
Right.  But the previous cases had to do with state laws concerning seating delegates, rather than state laws concerning how those delegates will vote.  I think that's the purpose of the Virginia lawsuit - to make it specific.

Yes, I understand the specifics of the case are different, but I thought the overall opinion was that states cannot compel private entities with regards to voting.  I suppose if there is a question it needs to be clarified, but I cannot see how the two cases could be ruled differently unless the first case is overturned.

Offline GtHawk

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2016, 07:56:29 pm »
Blaming Cruz?  A total symptom of Trump disease.  Cruz has done nothing negative toward Trump.  It would be
against all his principles to support Trump... a total betrayal of his character.  I hope he doesn't do it.

Blaming Cruz because 70% of people despise Trump is a pretty weak argument.
To the Trump acolytes, the very fact that Cruz did not, on bended knee apologize to their lord and the world for competing with him and offer his soul in fealty, is to them the very embodiment of doing something negative to Trump. Also blaming Cruz is an addiction to them, they just can't help themselves.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2016, 08:08:20 pm »
Yes, I understand the specifics of the case are different, but I thought the overall opinion was that states cannot compel private entities with regards to voting.  I suppose if there is a question it needs to be clarified, but I cannot see how the two cases could be ruled differently unless the first case is overturned.

I don't see how it could be ruled differently, either -- except it hasn't specifically been ruled on at all, so far as I'm aware.  If the court rules against these state laws specifically, then it has to make the job of addressing convention rules a lot easier for the Free the Delegates movement.

Offline Emjay

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2016, 11:37:40 pm »
To the Trump acolytes, the very fact that Cruz did not, on bended knee apologize to their lord and the world for competing with him and offer his soul in fealty, is to them the very embodiment of doing something negative to Trump. Also blaming Cruz is an addiction to them, they just can't help themselves.

It is an addiction and a pleasure (not a guilty one).
When I was still on TOS, the trashing of Cruz, even insane conspiracies, was met with wild applause.

Ugly pictures, ridiculous accusations, stupid nicknames... all the rage over there.

I think they miss him.  They really have nothing to talk about over there.  It's the Dead Zone.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2016, 12:09:36 am »
They really have nothing to talk about over there.  It's the Dead Zone.

Well, I certainly don't miss the place.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2016, 12:20:12 am »
Blaming Cruz?  A total symptom of Trump disease. 

A symptom of NeverTrump disease is to use words like "blame".  I'm not blaming Rafael.  I am wondering how he thinks this will help him.

He's not doing this to help keep the nation out of Hillary Clinton's control so he must be doing this for a much more self-centered motivation @Emjay

I am trying to figure out what he thinks will be his prize at the end of this effort--because I don't see one.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on this.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2016, 12:24:32 am »
It is an addiction and a pleasure (not a guilty one).
When I was still on TOS, the trashing of Cruz, even insane conspiracies, was met with wild applause.

Ugly pictures, ridiculous accusations, stupid nicknames... all the rage over there.

@Emjay

Unlike the rage over here trashing Trump, with insane conspiracies, ugly pictures, ridiculous accusations and stupid nicknames.  888blackhat

Online roamer_1

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2016, 12:25:06 am »
Cruz has been doing so and did not drop out of the race because he was loosing but I believe to focus his efforts on what could be done at convention...the end of the line where the "Deal" is struck.....

Cruz has been specifically playing toward the convention all the way along. He owns WAY more delegates than those allotted to him, and would be a fool to release those he has. Even though he lost the race, he is a massive power player at the convention, whether he participates or not. I am VERY happy to know there are so very many TEA Party patriots in the delegate population.

Quote
I will vote Trump only if there's no other way to keep Hillary away from Washington......because even though Trump's as green as can be and stubborn beyond measure.....there are those who we've seen can handle him.....but it's a long and painstaking path to get the man to see anything other than his own ideas, which often are fractured and beyond reasonable to carry out. 
 

Trump will lose. Backing him is backing losing. The very best thing, barring convention magic, is to back Castle and try to get him up out of the cheap seats... and vote down ticket for Conservatives. As things stand, Castle is the only hope of beating Hillary.
[/quote]

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2016, 12:29:28 am »
A symptom of NeverTrump disease is to use words like "blame".  I'm not blaming Rafael.  I am wondering how he thinks this will help him.

He's not doing this to help keep the nation out of Hillary Clinton's control so he must be doing this for a much more self-centered motivation @Emjay

I am trying to figure out what he thinks will be his prize at the end of this effort--because I don't see one.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on this.

First of all, I see no evidence that Cruz himself is orchestrating this.  Since there is no evidence that Cruz is directly involved I have to believe that this is solely being pushed by delegates that do not want to vote for Trump.  As far as what motivation Cruz may have if he were directly involved?  Perhaps, like many of us, he believes that Trump has no business being the republican nominee and there's no immediately tangible reward.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2016, 12:58:33 am »


Well Cruz has said all along that "Donald" isn't going to be the Nominee, regardless if Cruz himself was out before convention, and we know there's been irons in the fire for a long while to keep Trump from being appointed. Mostly because even Trump didn't appear to take this election seriously when he began his run. It was just another game 'challenge' Trump could aspire to that he far more enjoys  more than any win. Remember he's referenced that several times along the way. ..it's not the win but the path to that he loves.

We also know that nobody was as surprised as Trump he got so far so fast.....we know also the media was certainly instrumental in selling Trump for ratings which assuredly prevented other candidates from being known as they otherwise would have. Add to that Trumps showmanship, style, and control of his audience it was sure to entertain the masses and did just that...because that's what they want...entertainment they can be engaged with and excited about.  A celebrity apprentice for President is what they got.

Cruz and others were not prepared for the fickle public to jump on board that wagon, especially since Trump many times borrowed then tweaked Cruz's positions as his own. ..admittedly ....and 'studied' his positions   long before he announced. So what we saw in Trump was in many ways Cruz's platform ' Hollywood Glamorized' in order to suit up Trump with what he really didn't have in himself......any who knew Cruz well could see that. ...I surely did and that effortlessly so.

Thus not only has Cruz had the most skin in this game long before he announced even, but to watch Trump plagiaris his years of work has had to be a tough pill to swallow throughout this race. It has has been said, rightfully so....the enemy of truth is not a lie, it's the almost true.....and Trump has not only pulled that off but he wears it well to an eager audience....he IS a counterfeit and why he could never speak in any detail on the issues and flip flopped all over...he's been transforming himself to appear as he knows the public wants to see.  He can do that because of his experience at doing just that throughout his life.
And I will say one thing actors always understand that when you play a character you can become mentally that character and believe you are that individual.  Trump will BE whatever it takes to win....just as we have seen and he believes himself to be that character for whatever duration to become President.

That said......How does any serious candidate stand against someone who has nothing at all to loose, no one to fear because he plays by his own rules of conduct, dares to offend and insult without remorse, and has pulled off one of worlds most amazing counterfeit schemes?  You can't.....unless you utilize the tools available in the election process that are in place. Cruz has been doing so and did not drop out of the race because he was loosing but I believe to focus his efforts on what could be done at convention...the end of the line where the "Deal" is struck..... That's what Trump is fighting now IMO. ...NOT Cruz himself ....but the very process that could take him out...and it's not over til Trump has been 'officially' appointed.

Cruz has much invested, along with others as himself, in Washington set to go into action for this country he's worked on for years for this time we are in...and this not to hand over to to someone who hasn't a clue about how the halls of Washington work, nor cares to to co-operate to get these things actually done quickly, ....rather Trump does get in even his own way let alone the way this nation needs to go if he gets to Washington.....he'll be tripping all over his own feet, for sure, and that over others as well...he doesn't know that game nor the landmines.......this is why there's such a push to prevent him in power. There's no time for Trumps "show" in Washington.....

I will vote Trump only if there's no other way to keep Hillary away from Washington......because even though Trump's as green as can be and stubborn beyond measure.....there are those who we've seen can handle him.....but it's a long and painstaking path to get the man to see anything other than his own ideas, which often are fractured and beyond reasonable to carry out. 


Thank you for this long reply .... although much of it I do not agree with.  But I'm not sure what you answer is @WAC to my question asking what Cruz gets out of this.

If reports are to be believed, Cruz is trying to change the will of 14,000,000 primary voters.  Cruz was rejected across large swaths of voters and demographics, from conservative to moderate, from Evangelical to atheist, from middle class, lower class, the South, the Mid-Atlantic, the North, the Heartland and the West. 

Cruz gave as good as he got.  I really don't want to replay the primary tapes, but "Lyin' Ted" stuck to him like glue because it was so easy to prove.  Toward the end of the campaign, Cruz was like a flounder flopping on a boat---teaming with Kasich, unteaming with Kasich, choosing a running mate while not within spitting distance of the nomination, "winning" in states w/o voting, declaring he would have the delegates prior to the convention right up to the day he suspended his campaign.

And remember, like it or not, Donald Trump won every county in his home state to the tune of 62% of the vote.  Ted Cruz won 43% of the vote in his home state---the lowest percent in primary history.  Ted Cruz, the man and Ted Cruz, the candidate, did not gain traction with the voters.  Cruz himself bears the majority of that responsibility.

So, I'll ask again:  What's in this move for Cruz?  He's not going to be nominated.  Any other Republican candidate will lose the majority of the 14,000,000 who voted for Trump.  So all this serves to do is secure victory for Hillary Clinton.

I simply do not understand how Ted Cruz, Constitutional Conservative---American Extraordinaire could, with forethought, help put the US economy, homeland security, military and Federal and Supreme Courts in the hands of Hillary Clinton.

I need someone to explain this to me.  And telling me that Cruz's feelings are hurt or he's upset that his attacks didn't gain traction with Americans are not good enough answers.   :shrug:

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2016, 01:06:08 am »
First of all, I see no evidence that Cruz himself is orchestrating this.

Agree ... if the reports are true.  And we're not 100% there yet, @RoosGirl

Quote
As far as what motivation Cruz may have if he were directly involved?  Perhaps, like many of us, he believes that Trump has no business being the republican nominee and there's no immediately tangible reward.

It no longer matters what Cruz believes about Trump's business being the nominee.  He went through the same primary season as Trump, and Trump got the most votes.  Trying to derail this or damage this nomination only helps Hillary Clinton.  I'm sure Ted Cruz knows this.  So, I'd like to know what he gets out of all of this that makes President Hillary Clinton--and all that means to this nation--a reasonable tradeoff for him. 

I'm genuinely confused by this.   :shrug:


Offline sinkspur

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2016, 01:13:21 am »
Agree ... if the reports are true.  And we're not 100% there yet, @RoosGirl

It no longer matters what Cruz believes about Trump's business being the nominee.  He went through the same primary season as Trump, and Trump got the most votes.  Trying to derail this or damage this nomination only helps Hillary Clinton.  I'm sure Ted Cruz knows this.  So, I'd like to know what he gets out of all of this that makes President Hillary Clinton--and all that means to this nation--a reasonable tradeoff for him. 

I'm genuinely confused by this.   :shrug:

No you're not. You're just being a smart-ass.

You know very well Cruz is not behind any of this and that there is nothing in it for him.  Yet, in your faux-innocence, you damn Cruz with your ridiculous questions.

You should stop.  People are on to you and you're humiliating yourself.
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2016, 01:14:04 am »
Agree ... if the reports are true.  And we're not 100% there yet, @RoosGirl

It no longer matters what Cruz believes about Trump's business being the nominee.  He went through the same primary season as Trump, and Trump got the most votes.  Trying to derail this or damage this nomination only helps Hillary Clinton.  I'm sure Ted Cruz knows this.  So, I'd like to know what he gets out of all of this that makes President Hillary Clinton--and all that means to this nation--a reasonable tradeoff for him. 

I'm genuinely confused by this.   :shrug:
Because you continue to refuse to acknowledge just how bad Donald Trump is. When multiple credible conservative voices come to the conclusion that Hillary Clinton—left-wing, progressive, darling of the Democratic machine Hillary Clinton—looks like a less bad, or at least equally bad, choice for President than your guy, maybe it's time to reconsider things.

Remember, this is the same primary electorate that chose John McCain in 2008 (the most disliked candidate) and Mitt Romney in 2012 (also the most disliked candidate). The same electorate that, when Duncan Hunter the elder ran on a nearly identical platform to the one Trump is using now, brushed him off with 1% of the vote and nary a drop of fundraising. If you can't tell something's very wrong with the primary process in the GOP, and you're going to use the same process that gave us the McCain/Palin disaster in '08 and an election Obama never should have won in '12 to lend "credibility" to your guy, it's not going to work, at least with me.

Your candidate is not credible.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2016, 01:29:46 am »
No you're not. You're just being a smart-ass. 

No, I'm not @sinkspur.

Think back, Sink....months before the campaign.  You and I used to "dance" over Ted Cruz.  You couldn't find anything right with him or what he did, claiming that everything Cruz did was self-serving. If he raised money, he was self-serving.  If he filibustered in the Senate---he was stupid and a big deal because he could read nursery rhymes.   Hell, you would defend McConnell over Cruz!!

I was Cruz's defender.  Many of our "discussions" would end with me throwing up my hands and saying ... "I get it, you just don't like Cruz, Sink...period".  And then we would "go" again.   ^-^

So, I have been a fan of Ted Cruz.  I did not support him in the primaries because, simply put, I thought and still think Cruz was precisely the wrong man at the wrong time.   Almost from day one of the primaries, I said Cruz should go to the Supreme Court... that's his strength.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I was also not comfortable with his Canadian birth--you may recall that, too.

But, IF, Ted Cruz is behind this planned disruption leading up to and during the convention, I do find it very confusing.  I never envisioned him doing anything to assist, in any way, the victory of Hillary Clinton.

So when I say this confuses me ... it simply does; very much.   :shrug:
 

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2016, 01:39:55 am »
Because you continue to refuse to acknowledge just how bad Donald Trump is.

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I pray, for the good of this great nation and the free world, that he wins the White House in November.

Online Fishrrman

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2016, 01:47:23 am »
I sense that Mr. Trump is going to win the first ballot outright with at least 1,237 delegates who will freely cast their votes for him -- regardless of what the other delegates may try to do...


Offline WAC

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2016, 01:53:50 am »

Thank you for this long reply .... although much of it I do not agree with.  But I'm not sure what you answer is @WAC to my question asking what Cruz gets out of this.

If reports are to be believed, Cruz is trying to change the will of 14,000,000 primary voters.  Cruz was rejected across large swaths of voters and demographics, from conservative to moderate, from Evangelical to atheist, from middle class, lower class, the South, the Mid-Atlantic, the North, the Heartland and the West. 

Cruz gave as good as he got.  I really don't want to replay the primary tapes, but "Lyin' Ted" stuck to him like glue because it was so easy to prove.  Toward the end of the campaign, Cruz was like a flounder flopping on a boat---teaming with Kasich, unteaming with Kasich, choosing a running mate while not within spitting distance of the nomination, "winning" in states w/o voting, declaring he would have the delegates prior to the convention right up to the day he suspended his campaign.

And remember, like it or not, Donald Trump won every county in his home state to the tune of 62% of the vote.  Ted Cruz won 43% of the vote in his home state---the lowest percent in primary history.  Ted Cruz, the man and Ted Cruz, the candidate, did not gain traction with the voters.  Cruz himself bears the majority of that responsibility.

So, I'll ask again:  What's in this move for Cruz?  He's not going to be nominated.  Any other Republican candidate will lose the majority of the 14,000,000 who voted for Trump.  So all this serves to do is secure victory for Hillary Clinton.

I simply do not understand how Ted Cruz, Constitutional Conservative---American Extraordinaire could, with forethought, help put the US economy, homeland security, military and Federal and Supreme Courts in the hands of Hillary Clinton.

I need someone to explain this to me.  And telling me that Cruz's feelings are hurt or he's upset that his attacks didn't gain traction with Americans are not good enough answers.   :shrug:

I was not surprised you would disagree with much of what I wrote.....but it is how I see what has happened regarding Trumps primary run.

On the other hand there can be no denying how he operates, and the power of his streamlined campaign has worked very well for him. ...Also it's notable that Trump has certainly become much more focused and on message for much of these past weeks now.
 As I wrote some time ago, when I decided that I would vote for Trump, I would be watching and listening carefully and often to see improvement and he has done so. I suspect that will only increase  in the general, which I understand won't really get underway until convention and thereafter. He may yet show himself to be fully Presidential without losing the Trump way that he's about.

I really think the only person who can give you an answer that will satisfy you regarding what  Cruz might gain by whatever he is involved in regarding preventing Trump from the nomination ..is Cruz himself.  But let me also say I'm not convinced he's a part of those who are determined to stop Trump....a lot of what we know is "reported".....I prefer going by what Cruz expresses himself, and this at the stage we are currently in.... other than holding his delegates what exactly is he doing??????

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Free the Delegates Takes Legal Action to Unbind Delegates
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2016, 01:58:11 am »

I really think the only person who can give you an answer that will satisfy you regarding what  Cruz might gain by whatever he is involved in regarding preventing Trump from the nomination ..is Cruz himself.  But let me also say I'm not convinced he's a part of those who are determined to stop Trump....a lot of what we know is "reported".....I prefer going by what Cruz expresses himself, and this at the stage we are currently in.... other than holding his delegates what exactly is he doing??????

Fair enough!   :beer: