The Self-Immolation of the Republican Party

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Hey, I'm totally fine with that, and I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote for Trump.  I'm doing it because I doubt it will matter.

My issue is not people refusing to support or defend Trump.  It is that people (including elected Republicans) who are refusing to support or defend Trump don't seem to have much interest in going after Hillary or Obama either. 

With some of Trump's antics, like with the mexican judge fiasco, there's really no defense. Neither is there a defense of the muslim ban, really. So what can GOP leaders do? Defend something they dont' agree with in their hearts and minds? That would be even more phony.

[sinkspur]

I had to reread that twice...

You don't intend to vote for Hillary so you won't bash her

You don't intend to vote Trump but will bash him...

Your logic is confusing to say the least.

The wolf is at the door and she is wearing a pantsuit....

Posting Hillary threads are like posting Apple threads.

They drop to the bottom like rocks.  Some Trump threads do too.

What's the point in posting Hillary threads if nobody reads them?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I do not respect your busybody-ing about how the rest of us will vote.  We each get one vote.   Not voting for either detestable candidate is a vote for sanity.  In my view it is the only right thing to do.  You don't mind if I go by my own conscience rather than yours, do you?

Have you bothered to read a single thing that I've posted?  Because if you have, your response is absurd.  So here, I'll quote myself to make the point:

I don't ask or expect anyone to defend Trump -- he's vile, and underserving of defense.  If someone doesn't want to vote for Trump, fine -- don't vote for him. 

I'm not saying we should unify behind Trump, vote for him, or defend a single stupid word that comes out of his mouth.  He doesn't deserve it.  What is important is not Trump winning, but rather us confronting those on the left who challenge/violate our principles, and who will go completely unchallenged by the MSM unless we raise the issue and challenge them.  The voters need to be reminded of that when they go into the polls, so even if they don't vote for Trump, they at least are clear on the idea that Hillary cannot be given a Democratic Congress with which to work.

My post is not about rallying around Trump -- it really has nothing to do with him at all.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with not voting for Trump, but instead attacking Obama, Hillary, and the left to help out our downticket candidates.

Not voting for Trump and publicly focusing attention on how the Democrats are attacking our principles does advance those principles.

Hey, I'm totally fine with that, and I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote for Trump.  To me, the most moral, conservative option for those who won't vote for Trump is "Yeah, Trump is ridiculous.  But an unfettered Hillary would be an absolute disaster, and here's why."  Then focus on helping all our downticket candidates to keep Hillary from having her way once elected.  But we are not laying any of that anti-Hillary groundwork for November, and the MSM sure as hell isn't going to do it.

So @ratpatrol , would you please point out for me what I've been "busybody-ing about how the rest of us will vote?"  Because if there is one thing I have been repeating exhaustively in this thread, it is that whether or not someone votes for Trump isn't the point.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

With some of Trump's antics, like with the mexican judge fiasco, there's really no defense. Neither is there a defense of the muslim ban, really. So what can GOP leaders do? Defend something they dont' agree with in their hearts and minds? That would be even more phony.

No, once again, I'm not asking anyone to defend Trump.  He's indefensible.  But why let the MSM dictate that the only conversation we should be having is about Trump?  The stock response could just as easily be "I'm not going to defend Trump -- he made the comments, and should be the guy defending them.  But what I want to talk about is (insert latest screwed up thing Hillary or Obama has said or done)."

Hillary and Obama are getting a free pass because the only thing Republicans apparently want to talk about is Trump.  Now on a message board, that's only somewhat boring because we're an echo chamber.  But in the larger world, with GOP political figures who should be firing salvos against the Democrats, talking incessantly about Trump is handing a win on our principles to the Democrats, because almost nobody is taking the time/effort to challenge them.

[sinkspur]

Have you bothered to read a single thing that I've posted?  Because if you have, your response is absurd.  So here, I'll quote myself to make the point:

So @ratpatrol , would you please point out for me what I've been "busybody-ing about how the rest of us will vote?"  Because if there is one thing I have been repeating exhaustively in this thread, it is that whether or not someone votes for Trump isn't the point.

What seems to be the point is you want as much Hillary-bashing as there is Trump-bashing.

There are lots of articles out there negative about Hillary.  Go right ahead and post them.  See how much participation on those threads you get.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

What seems to be the point is you want as much Hillary-bashing as there is Trump-bashing.

There are lots of articles out there negative about Hillary.  Go right ahead and post them.  See how much participation on those threads you get.

Very little.  Which is exactly the point.

[mystery-ak]

There have been plenty of anti-Obama/Hillary articles posted.  They get little traffic and drop swiftly compared to the anti-Trump articles.  I just went and looked -- other than one article questioning sampling in a poll, the first 15 or so articles were all anti-Trump.

So true....Several members here go to great lengths looking for and posting interesting articles that are never posted on..it would be fun for a change to discuss something other than politics...just saying..

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

So true....Several members here go to great lengths looking for and posting interesting articles that are never posted on..it would be fun for a change to discuss something other than politics...just saying..

How do you react to an article that you agree with though? It would be a bunch of people posting "Good article" and "thumbs up" emojis. I have done that in the past and I've felt it's sort of like spamming. So I read a good article and think "good article" but I really have nothing to add to the conversation. So I don't post.

Political forums are about discord, period. It's human nature. It's why drama is interesting and a bunch of people agreeing with each other is boring. And I like to hear different ideas and perspectives.

[sitetest]

How do you react to an article that you agree with though? It would be a bunch of people posting "Good article" and "thumbs up" emojis. I have done that in the past and I've felt it's sort of like spamming. So I read a good article and think "good article" but I really have nothing to add to the conversation. So I don't post.

Political forums are about discord, period. It's human nature. It's why drama is interesting and a bunch of people agreeing with each other is boring. And I like to hear different ideas and perspectives.

What he said.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

How do you react to an article that you agree with though? It would be a bunch of people posting "Good article" and "thumbs up" emojis. I have done that in the past and I've felt it's sort of like spamming. So I read a good article and think "good article" but I really have nothing to add to the conversation. So I don't post.  Political forums are about discord, period. It's human nature. It's why drama is interesting and a bunch of people agreeing with each other is boring. And I like to hear different ideas and perspectives.

Okay, then aside from the snarky response of "And 47 pages of Ted Cruz saying Trump supporters will be held responsible isn't boring?", I'll go back to a point I made earlier.  How is that it that places like FR and this kept going in years other than those in which there was a Presidential election?  Don't we manage to read, post articles, and exchange information even when there isn't an ongoing primary campaign? 

Is it really only possible to have political discussions when the prospective nominee is controversial?  That's it??  Didn't most of us post articles or participate in conversations about Obama, terrorism, socialism, etc. etc. etc.?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

So true....Several members here go to great lengths looking for and posting interesting articles that are never posted on..it would be fun for a change to discuss something other than politics...just saying..

Well, I posted a Game of Thrones thread, and thread on the NBA playoffs....They're getting at least some traffic....But it's not even that.  It shouldn't be that the only time we can discuss politics or important issues is when there is a nominee we don't like.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Obviously not to a lot of people.  You don't have to read it if you don't want to.  I'm finding all these postings about how TBR is doing this and that wrong a real kill-joy myself.  I'd give up reading them if I didn't feel that I wanted to defend the place in its natural state, hoping the gripers don't ruin it like they did TOS.

Would you mind indicating where I was "busybodying about how the rest of us will vote", as you stated above?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Okay, then aside from the snarky response of "And 47 pages of Ted Cruz saying Trump supporters will be held responsible isn't boring?", I'll go back to a point I made earlier.  How is that it that places like FR and this kept going in years other than those in which there was a Presidential election?  Don't we manage to read, post articles, and exchange information even when there isn't an ongoing primary campaign? 

Is it really only possible to have political discussions when the prospective nominee is controversial?  That's it??  Didn't most of us post articles or participate in conversations about Obama, terrorism, socialism, etc. etc. etc.?

IT's actually a problem with the forum software. BBcode encourages never ending threads because of how it works. With FR you do get a few monster threads but most are usually pushed off the front page, and a lot of people don't check the older pages. BBcode threads aren't pushed out anywhere unless people completely stop responding to them.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

IT's actually a problem with the forum software. BBcode encourages never ending threads because of how it works. With FR you do get a few monster threads but most are usually pushed off the front page, and a lot of people don't check the older pages. BBcode threads aren't pushed out anywhere unless people completely stop responding to them.

Fair enough.  Again, what's happening on some threads here is really unimportant compared to what is happening in public, with elected Republican leadership.  It is their decision to focus on Trump rather than on what the Democrats have done/are doing, that will really cost us in November.

Honestly, the only reason I mentioned posts here was because they crystallized the larger picture for me of what is happening outside TBR.  That's the real problem, because the truth is that if you don't like a thread, simply don't post in it.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Fair enough.  Again, what's happening on some threads is really less important than what is happening in public, with elected Republican leadership.  It is their decision to focus on Trump rather than on what the Democrats have done/are doing, that will really cost us in November.

I don't agree. If Trump loses in November the blame lies on Trump and his enablers. Just like blame lied on Romney and McCain's shoulders as well. We are the party of personal responsibility right?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I don't agree. If Trump loses in November the blame lies on Trump and his enablers. Just like blame lied on Romney and McCain's shoulders as well. We are the party of personal responsibility right?

Okay, I'm not talking about whether Trump loses.  I don't really care much about that at all because he's a crappy candidate.  I'm talking about how the lack of attention of the horrendous damage Hillary's agenda will do will make us more likely to lose Congress. 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Okay, I'm not talking about whether Trump loses.  I don't really care much about that at all because he's a crappy candidate.  I'm talking about how the lack of attention of the horrendous damage Hillary's agenda will do will make us more likely to lose Congress.

I follow many of the GOP-e on Twitter, they post plenty negative about Hillary but it just gets ignored.

Trump sucks because of Trump, not because of the GOP-e.

[sinkspur]

So true....Several members here go to great lengths looking for and posting interesting articles that are never posted on..it would be fun for a change to discuss something other than politics...just saying..

No, Myst, it wouldn't be fun.  Politics is fun for people who post on political forums.  I like to discuss technology and sports, but not many others here do. 

Participation on this forum is higher than it's ever been.   

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I follow many of the GOP-e on Twitter, they post plenty negative about Hillary but it just gets ignored.

I don't Twitter, but I still hear reports of those tweets, and of course all the other public statements they make outside twitter.  And it is their responsibility to know that the MSM is deliberately going to focus on anything negative they say about Trump, while not repeating their criticisms of Hillary, and thereby create a distorted image.

The MSM is playing them like a fiddle.

Trump sucks because of Trump, not because of the GOP-e.

Agreed.

[Bigun]

Trump sucks because of Trump, not because of the GOP-e.

Agreed!  And the converse is just as true.  The GOPe sucks because of the GOPe, not because of Trump.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Who the hell is going to listen to Paul Ryan and McConnell?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Agreed!  And the converse is just as true.  The GOPe sucks because of the GOPe, not because of Trump.

That and the base for not understanding how separation of powers work.

[Bigun]

That and the base for not understanding how separation of powers work.

I actually think the base understands that better than the inside the beltway bastards do!

[OldSaltUSN]

@Maj. Bill Martin

I'm in basic agreement.  Don't care who votes FOR Trump. 

I do care when they say if I don't vote Trump, then I'm automatically a Hitlary supporter.  I do care when the Trump supporters insult me, "ZOT" me, use the most vile progressive-Alinskyite tactics, and then say "Trump doesn't need you anyway".

Trumps gonna lose 50 states, and I'm going to help him lose anyway possible.  I DO NOT buy the argument that choosing Hillary is a moral sin.  I've been given no choice in which scoundrel I choose.  So, I choose NOT to vote for the scoundrel who destroyed the conservative movement, and made it impossible for GOP candidates to win in 2016.  Trump loses the Senate and much of the House, EVEN IF HE WINS THE ELECTION.   

Try getting a "conservative" SCOTUS nominee through a Democrat Senate.  It'll just give THE DONALD cover to nominate a progressive, as he would have done anyway.  You folks SERIOUSLY believe that there's someway to get a conservative on the court next year?  Think again.  It ain't happening, because THE DONALD!

I choose to hurt the Trump movement with my suffrage, and support conservatives with my money.

Yeah, I'm gonna lose, the country's gonna lose, but it won't lose under a fake "conservative" President, who then vanquishes the conservative movement AND the GOP by enacting progressive policies and nominating a left-of-center Supreme Court Justice.  He'll do it anyway, or Hil the shrill will do it too, but Trump won't do it under my name.  NO friggin' WAY.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I actually think the base understands that better than the inside the beltway bastards do!

No the base doesn't understand that Congress cannot do much in the face of a veto.

GOP-e has their own issues.