Author Topic: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge  (Read 12419 times)

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PaleoConPrep

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2016, 02:14:34 pm »
Buchanan has a history of being anti-Semitic.  Why shouldn't sink bring that relevant fact up?
You guys call anyone who isn't a Zionist an Anti-Semite.  An Anti-Semite is someone who hates Jews because their Jewish. Buchanan simply points out the fact that there is a very strong Jewish lobby in this country, trying to keep us in the Middle East. Pat believes ( as I do) that Israel is its own nation, and must take care of itself. That's not Anti-Semitism. Sorry you wacky Zionists, but I will NEVER put  Israeli interests before those of America. Israel isn't special. It's just like any other nation. They have a strong military. If they can't defend themselves, that's too bad.  Russell Kirk agreed. Is Kirk an Anti-Semite too?

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2016, 02:22:43 pm »
You guys call anyone who isn't a Zionist an Anti-Semite.  An Anti-Semite is someone who hates Jews because their Jewish. Buchanan simply points out the fact that there is a very strong Jewish lobby in this country, trying to keep us in the Middle East. Pat believes ( as I do) that Israel is its own nation, and must take care of itself. That's not Anti-Semitism. Sorry you wacky Zionists, but I will NEVER put  Israeli interests before those of America. Israel isn't special. It's just like any other nation. They have a strong military. If they can't defend themselves, that's too bad.  Russell Kirk agreed. Is Kirk an Anti-Semite too?

And Bill Buckley disagreed with Russell Kirk.  No doubt you'll have something negative to say about Buckley.

You are in the minority, not only  on this board, but in this country as well:  Israel has a special standing with America and it will always be such.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

PaleoConPrep

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2016, 02:35:56 pm »
And Bill Buckley disagreed with Russell Kirk.  No doubt you'll have something negative to say about Buckley.

You are in the minority, not only  on this board, but in this country as well:  Israel has a special standing with America and it will always be such.
No it will not always be such. This Populist wing of the Republican Party that voted for Trump isn't going anywhere. The Paleoconservative/Reactionary movement is gaining steam. The moderate/NeoCon/Religious Right wing of the Party will be the minority in 10 years. The party will be taken over by conservative Libertarians and PaleoCons. Israel means nothing to me, and it means very little to this new, younger generation if conservatives. As Pat Buchanan has said "Bush Republicanism is dead and gone" The Republican Party of the future will be diverse. There will be Classical Liberals, PaleoCons,
Conservative Libertarians, NeoCons and so on. NroCon domination of the GOP is over my friend. If you want to support Israel, that's fine, but it will NOT be a requirement for GOP candidates in the future. To even put an intellectual like Russell Kirk in the same sentence as a phony like  Bill Buckley is lunacy.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 02:37:58 pm by PaleoConPrep »

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2016, 02:40:50 pm »
Buchanan has a history of being anti-Semitic.  Why shouldn't sink bring that relevant fact up?

Because the argument made by Buchanan in the article can be analyzed on its own merits, without regard for any personal flaws Buchanan might have.  If Buchanan's position were "critics of Trump are wrong because they are Jews", then anti-Semitic tendencies in Buchanan would be relevant.  But that is not Buchanan's argument, and whether or not someone is Jewish, or biased against Jews, is  not relevant to this discussion.

Buchanan makes, in my opinion, a fair argument that the judiciary is not immune to challenge, and that race has already been injected into questions of judicial fairness; the "wise Latina woman" is Exhibit A.  Although the left has unapologetically made race a consideration in choosing judges and justices,  Conservatives have believed for many years that race is not a valid consideration; the argument against Trump's position, and against Buchanan's defense, is that Conservatives simply do not accept that race is part of the discussion and we will not jettison that long-held belief now just to defend Trump.  Democrats are hypocrites for calling Trump a racist in this context, Conservatives (if we remain true to our values) are on entirely solid ground in arguing that at least Trump's argument is racist on its face.

Apart from the principle I'm trying to articulate, I also find persuasive the purely practical argument that Trump's attorneys have not filed a motion to have the judge recused, and in fact have praised the judge for "doing his job."  If Trump actually "has a case", then he should get lawyers who are willing to fight that case, because his current lawyers seem unwilling to do so.

If a stronger connection is made between the judge's La Raza legal association and the policies of the National Council of La Raza, then there might be a defensible argument for the judge's recusal on grounds of that association.  But his race or ethnicity is simply not a basis for questioning his ability to preside fairly.

I believe Trump's position is a cynical appeal to race, or perhaps ethnicity, in the pursuit of a public relations advantage, and I believe some of the arguments against Trump on this issue are themselves flawed.  But there is a solid, consistent ground for arguing against Trump, and against Buchanan's defense of Trump, consistent with beliefs Conservatives have held for years.
James 1:20

PaleoConPrep

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2016, 02:47:33 pm »
Because the argument made by Buchanan in the article can be analyzed on its own merits, without regard for any personal flaws Buchanan might have.  If Buchanan's position were "critics of Trump are wrong because they are Jews", then anti-Semitic tendencies in Buchanan would be relevant.  But that is not Buchanan's argument, and whether or not someone is Jewish, or biased against Jews, is  not relevant to this discussion.

Buchanan makes, in my opinion, a fair argument that the judiciary is not immune to challenge, and that race has already been injected into questions of judicial fairness; the "wise Latina woman" is Exhibit A.  Although the left has unapologetically made race a consideration in choosing judges and justices,  Conservatives have believed for many years that race is not a valid consideration; the argument against Trump's position, and against Buchanan's defense, is that Conservatives simply do not accept that race is part of the discussion and we will not jettison that long-held belief now just to defend Trump.  Democrats are hypocrites for calling Trump a racist in this context, Conservatives (if we remain true to our values) are on entirely solid ground in arguing that at least Trump's argument is racist on its face.

Apart from the principle I'm trying to articulate, I also find persuasive the purely practical argument that Trump's attorneys have not filed a motion to have the judge recused, and in fact have praised the judge for "doing his job."  If Trump actually "has a case", then he should get lawyers who are willing to fight that case, because his current lawyers seem unwilling to do so.

If a stronger connection is made between the judge's La Raza legal association and the policies of the National Council of La Raza, then there might be a defensible argument for the judge's recusal on grounds of that association.  But his race or ethnicity is simply not a basis for questioning his ability to preside fairly.

I believe Trump's position is a cynical appeal to race, or perhaps ethnicity, in the pursuit of a public relations advantage, and I believe some of the arguments against Trump on this issue are themselves flawed.  But there is a solid, consistent ground for arguing against Trump, and against Buchanan's defense of Trump, consistent with beliefs Conservatives have held for years.
Agreed.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2016, 02:52:52 pm »
No it will not always be such. This Populist wing of the Republican Party that voted for Trump isn't going anywhere. The Paleoconservative/Reactionary movement is gaining steam. The moderate/NeoCon/Religious Right wing of the Party will be the minority in 10 years. The party will be taken over by conservative Libertarians and PaleoCons. Israel means nothing to me, and it means very little to this new, younger generation if conservatives. As Pat Buchanan has said "Bush Republicanism is dead and gone" The Republican Party of the future will be diverse. There will be Classical Liberals, PaleoCons,
Conservative Libertarians, NeoCons and so on. NroCon domination of the GOP is over my friend. If you want to support Israel, that's fine, but it will NOT be a requirement for GOP candidates in the future. To even put an intellectual like Russell Kirk in the same sentence as a phony like  Bill Buckley is lunacy.

You're dead wrong.  You've hitched your wagon to a racist, misogynistic demagogue who is in the process of imploding.  He will lose and lose badly and all vestiges of Trumpism will die with his candidacy.

If your alt-right crowd takes over the GOP, no matter to me.  I left the party on May 3 when Trump won the nomination.  The Republican Party can die AFAIC.

And demographics are going to keep your "new GOP" out of the White House for at least a generation.  So you had best adjust your expectations and take the blinders off.

The American people are not nearly as cynical and self-destructive as you and your Paleo-Con pals.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

PaleoConPrep

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2016, 03:04:51 pm »
You're dead wrong.  You've hitched your wagon to a racist, misogynistic demagogue who is in the process of imploding.  He will lose and lose badly and all vestiges of Trumpism will die with his candidacy.

If your alt-right crowd takes over the GOP, no matter to me.  I left the party on May 3 when Trump won the nomination.  The Republican Party can die AFAIC.

And demographics are going to keep your "new GOP" out of the White House for at least a generation.  So you had best adjust your expectations and take the blinders off.

The American people are not nearly as cynical and self-destructive as you and your Paleo-Con pals.
You're just another HeoCon fraud. The demographics you speak of won't matter. If Trump loses, at least one or two states WILL secede.  The people in Red states will not tolerate 8 years of Queen Hillary. I'd like to see the Feds try and stop them. I'll likely be going to college in Idaho, so I'll be away from the mess for a while. If I'm wrong and nothing changes, I'll buy a nice big house in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho ( a perfect small town for me) and live happily ever after. I might even run for Congress representing Idaho.( that's one stats where I'd have a shot with my views)

Offline don-o

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2016, 03:28:51 pm »
Just. Wow.

I will say that my reaction is somewhat similar; however, do understand that the modding here is deliberately of a light hand. It's taking me some time to grasp what that means. Perhaps this is a good place for some input.

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2016, 03:29:18 pm »
For those who see an edit in your post it is because you quoted an offensive post...sorry I had to edit yours too.
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Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2016, 03:34:07 pm »
No it will not always be such. This Populist wing of the Republican Party that voted for Trump isn't going anywhere. The Paleoconservative/Reactionary movement is gaining steam. The moderate/NeoCon/Religious Right wing of the Party will be the minority in 10 years. The party will be taken over by conservative Libertarians and PaleoCons. Israel means nothing to me, and it means very little to this new, younger generation if conservatives. As Pat Buchanan has said "Bush Republicanism is dead and gone" The Republican Party of the future will be diverse. There will be Classical Liberals, PaleoCons, Conservative Libertarians, NeoCons and so on. NroCon domination of the GOP is over my friend. If you want to support Israel, that's fine, but it will NOT be a requirement for GOP candidates in the future. To even put an intellectual like Russell Kirk in the same sentence as a phony like  Bill Buckley is lunacy.

I notice you left out Social Conservatives (i.e., Christians.)  Just curious, was that an oversight, or was that a deliberate choice on your part?
Let it burn.

PaleoConPrep

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2016, 03:41:48 pm »
I notice you left out Social Conservatives (i.e., Christians.)  Just curious, was that an oversight, or was that a deliberate choice on your part?
Well there's no such thing as someone who's whole ideology is "social conservative" I'm a PaleoCon, and I'm extremely socially conservative. I was just talking about different variants of conservatism.

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2016, 03:58:41 pm »
Well there's no such thing as someone who's whole ideology is "social conservative" I'm a PaleoCon, and I'm extremely socially conservative. I was just talking about different variants of conservatism.

So, your contention is that a Social Conservative would simply have to fit in to one of the other groups you listed (PaleoCon, NeoCon, etc.)?
Let it burn.

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2016, 04:14:31 pm »
New Category is open for discussion

Worldview formation / Anthropology

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/board,116.0.html

PaleoConPrep

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2016, 04:17:58 pm »
So, your contention is that a Social Conservative would simply have to fit in to one of the other groups you listed (PaleoCon, NeoCon, etc.)?
I don't see what your asking. How can one simply call themselves a "Social Conservative" That's only one part of an ideology.

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2016, 04:24:49 pm »
:thumbsup3:

Been saying that the REAL Bigots are the ones who Call Trump a Racist for Pointing out the La Raza Judge self identifies as a Mexican not an American. Hispanic is a Race. Mexican is a Nationality.
Is the judge from Indiana a Mexican or was Trump lying about him?
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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2016, 04:27:21 pm »
I don't see what your asking. How can one simply call themselves a "Social Conservative" That's only one part of an ideology.

To my mind it has to do with the topics that most concern a person, such as, if one is most concerned with social matters such as abortion, homosexuality, etc., then one would be considered a Social Conservative. Are you saying such people don't exist?  Or perhaps that such issues are unimportant compared to such other weighty matters as judges of Mexican descent?
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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2016, 04:40:26 pm »
Once again, I will post this.
And I'll KEEP ON POSTING IT so long as the leftists in this forum insist that "La Raza" is an innocuous term to which we needn't be concerned or pay attention:
==================================
MEChA isn’t at all shy about their goals, or their views of other races. Their founding principles are contained in these words in “El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan” (The Spiritual Plan for Aztlan):

“In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny. … Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. … We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.”

That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: “For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing.”


Source:
http://humanevents.com/2006/04/07/emexclusive-emthe-truth-about-la-raza/

Offline etcb

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2016, 04:49:11 pm »
In all the examples cited by Mr. Buchanan, public policy was involved while this case strictly involves Mr. Trump's personal and business interest.  It arose long before he entered the political arena and has nothing to do with the office he seeks.  What bothers me is his seeming obsession with being given special consideration and treatment in all matters while "fairness" to others is never a consideration.  He knows that a judge can not respond to his public charges and insults yet he injects this into a campaign for the presidency.  I have to question whether he is more interested in the welfare of the country or himself.   He has articulated the anger and frustration many of us have with the direction our government has taken but is increasingly demonstrating character flaws that raise serious doubts about his ability to make necessary corrections.  It seems to be more about him than the country.

This was shaping up to be a very winnable election but, again we are being reminded that the character of candidates does matter.  In WW II, there was a popular slogan (Loose lips sink ships) that is appropriate here.  Those of us who have long followed Texas politics  remember our own ultra wealthy leading candidate for Governor (Clayton Williams) whose mouth gave the election to then unknown Gov. Ann Richards.  Missouri had Senate candidate Todd Akin and I am sure other states have had similar candidates who talked themselves out of contention.  Long ago, I sat on a jury trying an individual for a particularly vile crime and his defense was all about how he was treated unfairly.  It took us about 3 seconds to weigh how he was treated unfairly against what he did to his victim.  Needless to say, he is still in jail.

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2016, 04:50:32 pm »
Why did Donnie's lawyer praise the judge's fairness when rulings were issued and specifically say they had no intention of filing a motion to recuse? 

Was Trump lying then, or is he lying now, because he is most assuredly lying to someone.

PaleoConPrep

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2016, 04:52:15 pm »
To my mind it has to do with the topics that most concern a person, such as, if one is most concerned with social matters such as abortion, homosexuality, etc., then one would be considered a Social Conservative. Are you saying such people don't exist?  Or perhaps that such issues are unimportant compared to such other weighty matters as judges of Mexican descent?
You totally misunderstand me. I'm saying that there are many aspects to a persons political ideology. Those include social issues, economics, foreign policy, and so on. There are certainly people who are most concerned with social issues, and that's fine. I'm just saying that can't be the ONLY aspect of your ideology. I'm sure you have views on economics and foreign policy.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 04:53:29 pm by PaleoConPrep »

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2016, 04:54:08 pm »
Two more graphics appropriate to the thread:




Oceander

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2016, 04:55:54 pm »
Amazing how the Trump worshippers cannot answer a simple question:  why did Trump's attorney praise the judge's fairness and say they had no intention of filing a motion to recuse.  Were they lying then, or are they lying now?

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2016, 04:56:07 pm »
Once again, I will post this.
And I'll KEEP ON POSTING IT so long as the leftists in this forum insist that "La Raza" is an innocuous term to which we needn't be concerned or pay attention:
==================================
MEChA isn’t at all shy about their goals, or their views of other races. Their founding principles are contained in these words in “El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan” (The Spiritual Plan for Aztlan):

“In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny. … Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. … We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.”

That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: “For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing.”


Source:
http://humanevents.com/2006/04/07/emexclusive-emthe-truth-about-la-raza/


Trump doesn't seem to think it's a big deal:
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,210588.msg914960.html#msg914960
Presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump has been openly condemning U.S. District Court Judge Gonzalo Curiel on the campaign trail for, among other things, his alleged affiliation with the National Council of La Raza (NCLR). But despite Trump's political posturing, several recipients of La Raza Congressional and Capital Awards have been direct beneficiaries of Donald Trump's money.

More Specifically: I don't see how this biases the judge against Trump U. Are you suggesting the judges have to recuse themselves, in cases not rooted in politics, from judgments against any organization or person they don't agree with politically?

If they judge was a firm supporter of building a wall with a big beautiful door in it, should he recuse himself because he might be biased in favor of Trump?
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Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2016, 04:59:46 pm »
You totally misunderstand me. I'm saying that there are many aspects to a persons political ideology. Those include social issues, economics, foreign policy, and so on. There are certainly people who are most concerned with social issues, and that's fine. I'm just saying that can't be the ONLY aspect of your ideology. I'm sure you have views on economics and foreign policy.

Yes, I do have views on topics such as economics and foreign policy. I also know there are many people who consider themselves foremost Social Conservatives. You seem to be saying such people don't exist, that they really just fall into one of the other groupings of conservatives but they themselves don't seem to realize it.  Now, if that is a misunderstanding of what you are saying, then I apologize.
Let it burn.

PaleoConPrep

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Re: Pat Buchanan: The Donald & The La Raza Judge
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2016, 05:06:35 pm »
Yes, I do have views on topics such as economics and foreign policy. I also know there are many people who consider themselves foremost Social Conservatives. You seem to be saying such people don't exist, that they really just fall into one of the other groupings of conservatives but they themselves don't seem to realize it.  Now, if that is a misunderstanding of what you are saying, then I apologize.
People who consider themselves formost Social Conservatives certainly do exist. It's called the Religious Right. I was just saying that those people also have views on other issues. I think the Religious Right is a category of Conservatism itself.