Why I will/will not vote for Trump

[RoosGirl]

There have been a number of requests on the FR Refugee thread to take the politics elsewhere.  And there have been a number of comments on the topic regarding the reasons why someone would or would not vote for Trump.  Maybe we can use this area to discuss that?



I'll go first.  @Quix did not understand the logic of (paraphrasing) not voting for Trump because he was untrustworthy and a liberal, when not voting for him would effectively help elect Hillary who is more untrustworthy and more liberal.   I will not vote for Trump because he is untrustworthy and a liberal.  Whether other people vote for Hillary and get her elected I cannot control, but I will not be essentially blackmailed into a "lesser evil" candidate because other people like a "more evil" candidate.

[INVAR]

Some people only know how to practice insanity every election cycle in the prescribed box.

I plan on being outside the box.

[roamer_1]

the logic of (paraphrasing) not voting for Trump because he was untrustworthy and a liberal [...]

Either we believe in the principles of Conservatism, or we do not.
My vote (positive endorsement) is easily given - Give me a Conservative, to vote for.
And thus, my vote will go to Darrell Castle.

[DB]

Alexander Hamilton:

“For my individual part my mind is made up. I will never more be responsible for him by my direct support—even though the consequence should be the election of Jefferson. If we must have an enemy at the head of the Government, let it be one whom we can oppose & for whom we are not responsible, who will not involve our party in the disgrace of his foolish and bad measures. Under Adams as under Jefferson the government will sink. The party in the hands of whose chief it shall sink will sink with it and the advantage will all be on the side of his adversaries.”

[geronl]

Alexander Hamilton:

“For my individual part my mind is made up. I will never more be responsible for him by my direct support—even though the consequence should be the election of Jefferson. If we must have an enemy at the head of the Government, let it be one whom we can oppose & for whom we are not responsible, who will not involve our party in the disgrace of his foolish and bad measures. Under Adams as under Jefferson the government will sink. The party in the hands of whose chief it shall sink will sink with it and the advantage will all be on the side of his adversaries.”

That is a great quote and I can definitely identify.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Alexander Hamilton:

“For my individual part my mind is made up. I will never more be responsible for him by my direct support—even though the consequence should be the election of Jefferson. If we must have an enemy at the head of the Government, let it be one whom we can oppose & for whom we are not responsible, who will not involve our party in the disgrace of his foolish and bad measures. Under Adams as under Jefferson the government will sink.

Yes, of course.  This strategy has worked so well for the past eight years.  Keep yapping from the sidelines while the country is fundamentally changed.  Don't raise a hand to stop the change, don't put yourself in a position to actually affect the course of events.  Just keep your hands clean and keep on yapping.

Good plan.  Good, good plan.

edited for personal attacks

[roamer_1]

Keep yapping from the sidelines while the country is fundamentally changed. 

Ahh, you mean like the way the term 'conservative' can be changed by wrapping it around a NY City liberal?
That kind of fundamental change?

 

[Right_in_Virginia]

Ahh, you mean like the way the term 'conservative' can be changed by wrapping it around a NY City liberal?
That kind of fundamental change?

 *

No, @roamer. Your post is too clever by half.   I'm talking about the fundamental change that Obama has implemented and Hillary will expand. 

You can choose to get in the fight to stop Obama's third term or you can sit back and sip your chilled Chardonnay while admiring your perfect manicure.

We've got one political leader.  You don't like him.  I get it.  But that's not a good enough reason to sit back keeping your hands clean.  There's no excuse for Conservative not talking with Trump and hashing out where the Conservative voice will be seated at the table.  No excuse at all.

[roamer_1]

No, roamer. Your post is too clever by half.   I'm talking about the fundamental change that Obama has implemented and Hillary will expand. 

*shrugs* I see no difference at all. It is Conservatism that holds the fundamental truths that are America. Trying to fix liberal change with more liberal change is an utter fallacy.

You can choose to get in the fight to stop Obama's third term or you can sit back and sip your chilled Chardonnay while admiring your perfect manicure.

There is no difference between one liberal and another. I wil certainly fight - but not for Orange Glorious. If you want to save America, insist upon Conservatism.

We've got one political leader. 

No 'we' don't.

You don't like him.  I get it. 

Damn straight.

But that's not a good enough reason to sit back keeping your hands clean.  There's no excuse for Conservative not talking with Trump and hashing out where the Conservative voice will be seated at the table.  No excuse at all.

Sure there is: He cannot be trusted.

And I am not sitting back. I am rising in direct opposition. I am finalizing my intention to support the Constitution Party. Soon, I will be rolling up support for Castle within Right to Life too... And rabble-rousing my TEA party connections (which won't take much).

[aligncare]

Ahh, you mean like the way the term 'conservative' can be changed by wrapping it around a NY City liberal?
That kind of fundamental change?

 

Trump's political agenda has been, on record, consistently conservative for 35 years. Sorry you feel his table manners aren't sufficiently genteel. But there are regional differences in the US in speech patterns and mannerisms. Too, he comes from a business culture that prizes tough can-do work ethic and achievement – and Trump has that in spades.

We're not interviewing the man for a debating society. Mr. Trump's political agenda is, and has been conservative – on record, consistently, conservative.

[roamer_1]

Trump's political agenda has been, on record, consistently conservative for 35 years.

No, he has not. I will challenge you to defend him by the principles of the Conservative factions - which you won't. Because you can't

Sorry you feel his table manners aren't sufficiently genteel. But there are regional differences in the US in speech patterns and mannerisms.

Bullcrap. It is character that is lacking, not 'table manners'.

Too, he comes from a business culture that prizes tough can-do work ethic and achievement – and Trump has that in spades.

I come from a business culture too - He doesn't impress me.

We're not interviewing the man for a debating society. Mr. Trump's political agenda is, and has been conservative – on record, consistently, conservative.

Absolutely false. One wonders what passes for conservative back east.

[Texas Yellow Rose]

There's no excuse for Conservative not talking with Trump and hashing out where the Conservative voice will be seated at the table.  No excuse at all.

Of course there is .... it's Donald's way or the highway! 

He has done absolutely NOTHING that gives me a reason to vote for him.  I have tried to find it.  He backtracks on the major issues.  What's there to vote for??

[Poser]

Alexander Hamilton:

“For my individual part my mind is made up. I will never more be responsible for him by my direct support—even though the consequence should be the election of Jefferson. If we must have an enemy at the head of the Government, let it be one whom we can oppose & for whom we are not responsible, who will not involve our party in the disgrace of his foolish and bad measures. Under Adams as under Jefferson the government will sink. The party in the hands of whose chief it shall sink will sink with it and the advantage will all be on the side of his adversaries.”

One of my relatives killed Hamilton. Wise choice.

[Jazzhead]

The problem with Trump is the office to which he aspires.    He's not qualified for it.   If he were running for U.S. Senate on the GOP line,  I'd have opposed him in the primary but be willing to vote for him in the general election out of party solidarity. 

I take party solidarity seriously.   Those who've known me through the years on the internet know how I excoriated those who stayed home rather than vote for McCain or Romney because their conservatism wasn't pure enough.   I've stated flatly that such folks were responsible for the misery of the last eight years.   So my NeverTrump stance is ripe for criticism as hypocritical.   Why won't I support the nominee this time around?

It's because Trump's conservatism, or lack thereof, isn't the issue for me.   It's his temperament and hair-trigger temper, his vindictiveness and megalomania.   He's too dangerous to sit in the Oval Office and to be trusted with the decisions a President has to make.   As a Senator,  he can rant and rave to his heart's content but he can't do any concrete harm.   As a governor, he can mess up a state's economy and do a fair share of damage,  but he won't command a military, practice statecraft or have custody of the nuke codes.   

As President,  the damage this intemperate, unstable man can do is incalculable.  Put simply,  when faced by the horrible of choice of Trump vs. Clinton,  I am forced to conclude the crucial difference between them isn't ideological, it is simply this:  the menace posed by Trump is existential, the menace posed by Clinton isn't.   We can survive four years of Clinton.  I'm not so sure about Trump.   He will rip the fabric of this nation to shreds,  pit citizen against citizen,  endanger our soldiers,  go to war with other nations over trade or some imagined slight.

It is my duty as a patriot and a citizen to do everything in my capacity to ensure Trump never occupies the White House.  I won't stay home, I won't spit the bit.   I will vote to defeat him.   I will try to persuade all who will listen to do so as well.   I realize the cost.  It is terrible.   But there is no choice at this point but to accept and endure it. 

[alicewonders]

The problem with Trump is the office to which he aspires.    He's not qualified for it.   If he were running for U.S. Senate on the GOP line,  I'd have opposed him in the primary but be willing to vote for him in the general election out of party solidarity. 

I take party solidarity seriously.   Those who've known me through the years on the internet know how I excoriated those who stayed home rather than vote for McCain or Romney because their conservatism wasn't pure enough.   I've stated flatly that such folks were responsible for the misery of the last eight years.   So my NeverTrump stance is ripe for criticism as hypocritical.   Why won't I support the nominee this time around?

It's because Trump's conservatism, or lack thereof, isn't the issue for me.   It's his temperament and hair-trigger temper, his vindictiveness and megalomania.   He's too dangerous to sit in the Oval Office and to be trusted with the decisions a President has to make.   As a Senator,  he can rant and rave to his heart's content but he can't do any concrete harm.   As a governor, he can mess up a state's economy and do a fair share of damage,  but he won't command a military, practice statecraft or have custody of the nuke codes.   

As President,  the damage this intemperate, unstable man can do is incalculable.  Put simply,  when faced by the horrible of choice of Trump vs. Clinton,  I am forced to conclude the crucial difference between them isn't ideological, it is simply this:  the menace posed by Trump is existential, the menace posed by Clinton isn't.   We can survive four years of Clinton.  I'm not so sure about Trump.   He will rip the fabric of this nation to shreds,  pit citizen against citizen,  endanger our soldiers,  go to war with other nations over trade or some imagined slight.

It is my duty as a patriot and a citizen to do everything in my capacity to ensure Trump never occupies the White House.  I won't stay home, I won't spit the bit.   I will vote to defeat him.   I will try to persuade all who will listen to do so as well.   I realize the cost.  It is terrible.   But there is no choice at this point but to accept and endure it.

[Luis Gonzalez]

This was posted on Facebook by a guy named Leo Pusateri. It describes my thoughts on the issue to the "t".

When John McCain was the Republican Party's unfortunate nominee in 2008, I held my nose and voted for him because in the end, I believed him to be an honorable man, who despite numerous policy differences and disagreements, still had the best interests of our nation at heart. I knew that John McCain was no crook.

When Mitt Romney became the Republican Party's nominee in 2012, I again held my nose and voted for him, because in the end I believed him to be an honorable man, who again despite numerous policy and other political differences, still had the best interests of our nation at heart. I knew that Mitt Romney was no crook.

Now that Donald Trump is the unfortunate presumptive nominee of the Republican party in 2016, I can find no rationalization to hold my nose.

I believe Donald Trump to be a self-interested crook. I believe him to be an uninformed, egocentric, mentally unstable, Constitutionally clueless and detatched, vindictive self-absorbed ass of unquestionably poor character, wholly unqualified to lead the most powerful nation on earth.

I have done a lot of research in my field regarding narcissisitic/sociopathic personalities. While outwardly charming, they are always looking for their next 'mark.' The crimes and opportunistic human offenses that sociopathic personalities commit are differed only by venue. It is my opinion that, given Donald Trump's level of character, had he been given access to the same political venue with the same levers of governmental power as had Hillary Clinton as First Lady, Senator, and then Secretary of State, he would have committed equally egregious if not more egregious misuses of power.

But Trump was on the other side. He merely engaged in corruption from a different venue. His was the side that made 'deal making' and corruption with other sociopathic personalities who WERE in governmental power possible.

You cannot speak of corruption in government without taking Donald Trump out of the equation. He, in my opinion, is part and parcel of the cabal of corruption that has cost taxpayers billions, if not trillions and has fed the corruption in Washington DC and elsewhere. Trump is of the same level of decrepit character that facilitated and perpetuated government corruption for many, many years.

One cannot, in my opinion, rightfully connect Hillary Clinton to government corruption and usurpation of power on one hand, and then hold Donald Trump blameless on the other.

They are two sides of the same, very, very dirty penny.

I can find no reason, no justification to 'hold my nose' and vote for Donald Trump any more than I can find any reason nor justification to vote for Hillary Clinton.

None.

I could no easier choose between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump than I could choose between Mao Tse Tung and Hugo Chavez.

[bolobaby]

Yep. And given the choice between two crap sandwiches, I choose not to eat, while you choose to happily chow down.

Enjoy.

[aligncare]

We, the supporters of the fascist orange orangutan, will hold a vigil for your vote. 

[austingirl]

This was posted on Facebook by a guy named Leo Pusateri. It describes my thoughts on the issue to the "t".

Most excellent post. He nailed it.

[skeeter]

Yes, of course.  This strategy has worked so well for the past eight years.  Keep yapping from the sidelines while the country is fundamentally changed.  Don't raise a hand to stop the change, don't put yourself in a position to actually affect the course of events.  Just keep your hands clean and keep on yapping.

Good plan.  Good, good plan.

Cowards

I thought the election of GW Bush would stop the slide. It didn't.

I really wanted a candidate I could trust this time around. Someone who had a firm grasp of the fundament problem that this country is drifting away from the principles that led it to greatness in the first place.

After all, what does it matter who sits in the Oval Office unless that person understands that an organism of the size and with the power of the federal government that at the root of almost all of our problems, and is willing to do something about it?

This time we needed someone with integrity who understands the nature of the beast, not some liberally inclined flamboyant showman who understands just enough to tap into the vein of frustration that everyone knows is out there.

Many of us just don't see any positive long term change coming from Trump - more of the same just with a little reality show flair.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Of course there is .... it's Donald's way or the highway! 

He has done absolutely NOTHING that gives me a reason to vote for him.

Of course he has.  The future of the Supreme Court.  You decide if that's important enough for you. 

[aligncare]

There are hundreds of TV and radio interviews and thousands of magazine articles featuring Donald Trump over his 40-year career.

The record shows Mr. Trump's conservative philosophy has not changed in 35 years. It's on the record. YouTube, LEXIS-NEXIS, Google, the public library, it's out there for anyone interested in learning what informs and motivates the next president of the United States. It's all on record. ...which most of #NeverTrump will mindlessly ignore. Your prerogative. Sometimes the horse doesn't want a drink. And here you've gone through all that effort to lead him there.

[alicewonders]

Of course he has.  The future of the Supreme Court.  You decide if that's important enough for you.

It's not as important as making sure Hillary wins in 2016, so that Saint Ted can come in and save us all in 2020. 

[Jazzhead]

Of course he has.  The future of the Supreme Court.  You decide if that's important enough for you.

Yes, that's important.  That's why the delegates must reject Trump at the convention, in favor of a compromise candidate who can win.   Trump will be slaughtered in the fall, and deservedly so.   

[Oceander]

It's not as important as making sure Hillary wins in 2016, so that Saint Ted can come in and save us all in 2020. 

So you worship Trump, ignore his lies and flip-flops, and pretend he's not just as liberal as Clinton.  Idolatry is not pretty, even for Trump worshippers.