Can Social Conservatism Survive Trump?

[don-o]

Can Social Conservatism Survive Trump?

The movement remains divided over the presumptive GOP nominee.

10:48 AM, May 27, 2016 | By John McCormack

http://www.weeklystandard.com/can-social-conservatism-survive-trump/article/2002592/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=t.co&utm_campaign=20160527_TWS-blog-trump-social-con-10_twitter&utm_content=TWS

Social conservatives and evangelical leaders who were some of Donald Trump’s staunchest foes during the GOP primary now face a dilemma in the general election: Should they vote for a man as immoral as Trump in order to stop Hillary Clinton from becoming president?

Since Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee on May 3, Princeton professor Robert George, a leading social conservative intellectual, has been thinking about that question. He hasn't been able to reach a conclusion yet.

"The best argument for holding our noses and voting for Donald Trump can be summed up in two words: Supreme Court," says George. There is no doubt that Hillary Clinton would shift the balance of the Court to the left, and there would be disastrous consequences for conservatives who care about issues like religious liberty and the right to life. Trump released a list of 11 potential Supreme Court nominees, but did not promise he'd pick one of them as president but would nominate a person like them. Given Trump's record of dishonesty and infidelity, George says Trump's pledge to appoint constitutionalists is "essentially meaningless," but "with Trump, you've at least got a shot."

"I could never in a million years pull a lever for Hillary Clinton. Her character is at least as bad as Trump's, and her policies are if anything even worse than those he proposes," says George. But he still worries that Trump could do more damage to conservatism and the country than Clinton in the long-term: "I cannot say right now that the consequences of four years of Hillary would be worse than four years of Trump."

Social conservatives are used to voting for candidates—including Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Mitt Romney—who have, like Trump, changed their positions on abortion. What they have not yet tolerated is voting for a man whose public behavior is so deplorable he could degrade the culture and discredit the moral authority of his supporters, their organizations, and their party for a generation.

Trump has mocked and insulted women, the disabled, and even prisoners of war. "I like people who weren't captured," Trump said of John McCain in July. Trump dodged the draft with a medical deferment for "bone spurs" that didn't stop him from playing sports in college; he later told Howard Stern that avoiding venereal disease in the 1980s was "my personal Vietnam." He has publicly bragged about sleeping with the wives of other men. He has repeatedly lied about matters big and small. By Trump's own admission, he has never asked God for forgiveness.

excerpted

[don-o]

@betty boop

[don-o]

Russell Moore applies hammer to nail

Moore says that the Clinton-Trump election is "giving us a choice between Gloria Steinem and Howard Stern. In either case we lose. We lose in different ways. We lose in some ways faster in one direction than we do in the other. We also have to be the people willing to say that both of those directions are toxic and lead us in places that are awfully unsustainable for the kind of character the Founders knew is necessary to sustain a self-governing people."

"The worst thing we could end up with is two morally relativistic ideologies in American life, who both accept the principles of the sexual revolution and see morality simply in terms of the will-to-power," he says.

[jmyrlefuller]

The selection of Trump is simply a symptom of the death of social morality we've seen the past decade.

Now, a person can be considered male or female solely by what they think they are regardless of the basic reality of their biology, "starter marriages" end in divorces within a few years of consummation, out of wedlock births are through the roof, and marriage is now seen as either the consummation of some baseless emotion or some way to get money out of the other partner, who can now be of either sex and no one questions it anymore. What has the result been? Broken homes, broken relationships, broken "families," a drop in the birth rate and a situation where bringing a child into the world is seen as more of a hardship than a blessing.

This country needs a moral revolution before the political revolution comes. We as a nation need to see what is right and what is wrong. (Again, if we ever did before.) If that can be pulled off, the likes of Trump and Clinton won't ever see the light of day in our society again.

[INVAR]

Excellent comments by all the above.

IMO, Trump permanently destroys and kills Conservatism as articled by and championed by the Founders and Reagan.

He will render it irrelevant at best and/or redefine it to fit his own definition that will arise from his Northeastern Liberal Leftist Populism.

The foundations of the country have been fundamentally transformed, abandoned and redefined.  What comes now is the tyranny of men in various disguises of benevolence and promises of greatness.

It ail just wax worse and worse until the tyrants of last century blush.

[geronl]

It'll survive, it just won't be in the Republicrat Party

[geronl]

Neither is he fiscally conservative

[Fishrrman]

Question:
"Can Social Conservatism Survive Trump?"

Answer:
Social conservatism will survive quite well on its own, as it always has, thank you very much.

(It's a set of values that exist independently of political parties and their candidates...)

[don-o]

Question:
"Can Social Conservatism Survive Trump?"

Answer:
Social conservatism will survive quite well on its own, as it always has, thank you very much.

(It's a set of values that exist independently of political parties and their candidates...)

Give that man a big ol' don-o

[ABX]

I'm concerned about Conservatism itself. This actually didn't start with Trump, he is just a shyster capitalizing on it. This is a split that has been happening with Conservatives for a while- the split between actual limited government, it is not your money, it is none of your business Conservatives and those of the authoritarian mindset who want to use a hammer to force their beliefs. It is the difference between philosophical conservatives and issues conservatives.

This is the difference between those who are horrified at anyone on their side uttering the word 'force' and those who cheer it.

[don-o]

I'm concerned about Conservatism itself. This actually didn't start with Trump, he is just a shyster capitalizing on it. This is a split that has been happening with Conservatives for a while- the split between actual limited government, it is not your money, it is none of your business Conservatives and those of the authoritarian mindset who want to use a hammer to force their beliefs. It is the difference between philosophical conservatives and issues conservatives.

This is the difference between those who are horrified at anyone on their side uttering the word 'force' and those who cheer it.

Very concise definitions and examples should be presented to mark out who is actually doing that. I would love for such a conversation to go forward.

@roamer_1

[Oceander]

I'm concerned about Conservatism itself. This actually didn't start with Trump, he is just a shyster capitalizing on it. This is a split that has been happening with Conservatives for a while- the split between actual limited government, it is not your money, it is none of your business Conservatives and those of the authoritarian mindset who want to use a hammer to force their beliefs. It is the difference between philosophical conservatives and issues conservatives.

This is the difference between those who are horrified at anyone on their side uttering the word 'force' and those who cheer it.

Funny thing:  the philosophical conservatives you describe would be more aptly named Millsian liberals, and would be pretty much at home in the Liberal parties of some other countries, such as Australia.  It's a shame that the hardcore left (socialists and labor types) were able to steal that term in this country. 

[Right_in_Virginia]

Social conservatism has been on life support for decades---way before Trump entered the political scene. The real question is:  Can Social Conservatism Survive.  Period.?

[ABX]

Funny thing:  the philosophical conservatives you describe would be more aptly named Millsian liberals, and would be pretty much at home in the Liberal parties of some other countries, such as Australia.  It's a shame that the hardcore left (socialists and labor types) were able to steal that term in this country.

Here they often refer to themselves as classical liberals in the Jeffersonian sense. That isn't used much because the average Joe just bears liberal and reacts to that.

[Doug Loss]

I'm concerned about Conservatism itself. This actually didn't start with Trump, he is just a shyster capitalizing on it. This is a split that has been happening with Conservatives for a while- the split between actual limited government, it is not your money, it is none of your business Conservatives and those of the authoritarian mindset who want to use a hammer to force their beliefs. It is the difference between philosophical conservatives and issues conservatives.

This is the difference between those who are horrified at anyone on their side uttering the word 'force' and those who cheer it.

You're making a category error.  The first group you describe are conservatives as the term is properly used in the US.  The second group is authoritarians (as you recognize), who aren't conservative at all, just power-hungry.  They're much closer to the leftist authoritarians than to true conservatives, as the positions they putatively espouse are only important in so far as they help put or keep the authoritarians in power.

[roamer_1]

Very concise definitions and examples should be presented to mark out who is actually doing that. I would love for such a conversation to go forward.

Thanks for the ping.

I'm concerned about Conservatism itself. This actually didn't start with Trump, he is just a shyster capitalizing on it. This is a split that has been happening with Conservatives for a while- the split between actual limited government, it is not your money, it is none of your business Conservatives and those of the authoritarian mindset who want to use a hammer to force their beliefs. It is the difference between philosophical conservatives and issues conservatives.

This is the difference between those who are horrified at anyone on their side uttering the word 'force' and those who cheer it.

I will lay the blame squarely upon the neck of the NeoCons - Beginning with Dubya's administration, NeoConservatism threw Fiscal Conservatism and more importantly, Civil-Libertarianism under the bus.

In retrospect, NeoCons developed a moral sense out of a bastardized Christian ethic, combined with a bastardized sense of DefCon Patriotism... All the while, our fiscal conservative brethren and particularly our civil-libertarian brethren were screaming bloody murder.
*AND THEY WERE RIGHT.*

It was mere lip service to the Christians, and our military has been overstretched and turned into the policemen for the whole world. Neither can be happy with what has been wrought.

To be fair, the successes of the TEA party have done much to rectify the situation (or so it was before this year) - Lets not forget that the TEA party began, kicking and screaming, in Ron Paul's camp (civil-libertarians, defined) , and natively attracting fiscally minded to their cause... But it was turbocharged by the Reagan Christians, which is when it started cranking.

It might be said that Cruz, as a TEA party darling and an obvious leader for the Christian Right, showed that repair - with Christians conceding to his Federalist view on Marriage as at least satisfactory. We're close. It can come back together, and it is.

Our current malady aside (for it really can't be determined until Conservatives actually have their say in November), I think our job now is education - Even, and especially, in and within our own ranks. Many wear a conservative pin in their hat without any real idea of what it means, as due to the machinations of the NeoCons (and now Trump), the word has become little more than a catch phrase in political circles... Largely interchangeable with 'republican', especially in the Northeast.

It has long been my argument, from here in the more libertarian West,  that a proper Conservative conscience must necessarily be derived from the Judeo-Christian Ethic in friendly opposition with a Civil-Libertarian rule set. They necessarily must inform each other. It's what we must teach foremost - that sense of right and wrong, within the defined and limited powers of our Constitutional constructs. It is astonishing how few adhere to these very basic principle things...

And that is not to devalue our FICON and DEFCON brethren - Where conscience applies to their principles, they are contained within the above. As to the principles derived from disciplines, with a proper mindset, the disciplines will naturally follow.
 
@LonestarDream
@Norm Lenhart
@CatherineofAragon 
@sitetest
@markomalley

[roamer_1]

Social conservatism has been on life support for decades---way before Trump entered the political scene. The real question is:  Can Social Conservatism Survive.  Period.?

Like all of Conservatism, Social Conservatism resides in a set of principles - Self-evident first things - If they are indeed principle things, then of course they survive. Truth is not subject to political whim.

[roamer_1]

Give that man a big ol' don-o

D00d! I like the hat. Is that new? 

[Norm Lenhart]

Our current malady aside (for it really can't be determined until Conservatives actually have their say in November), I think our job now is education - Even, and especially, in and within our own ranks.

I think that we have to accept that in a country split 50/50 in the electoral sense, everyone that can be educated, HAS been. The unfortunate reality is that we of the conservative bent have become a casualty of time. In short, ours, for now, has passed.

Right now, the overwhelming majority of the thing called America (but that shares nothing with the one the Founders created or ever intended) is leftist. All of the left obviously, and most of the right who demands pragmatism, lesser evil, and pines for people like Trump, with a lifetime record of support for leftist causes and positions, to lead them.

There is no saving this and there is nothing as it stands worth saving. It has to collapse and from that collapse, our children, likely THEIR children, can rebuild what the leftists of the (mostly) Boomer and (partly) GenX generation stupidly threw away. If any education is to be done, it's the education of our kids so they have the tools to start the rebuild after we are gone.

[don-o]

D00d! I like the hat. Is that new? 

Had it for years. Hang it here.

[sitetest]

Thanks for the ping.

I will lay the blame squarely upon the neck of the NeoCons - Beginning with Dubya's administration, NeoConservatism threw Fiscal Conservatism and more importantly, Civil-Libertarianism under the bus.

In retrospect, NeoCons developed a moral sense out of a bastardized Christian ethic, combined with a bastardized sense of DefCon Patriotism... All the while, our fiscal conservative brethren and particularly our civil-libertarian brethren were screaming bloody murder.
*AND THEY WERE RIGHT.*

It was mere lip service to the Christians, and our military has been overstretched and turned into the policemen for the whole world. Neither can be happy with what has been wrought.

To be fair, the successes of the TEA party have done much to rectify the situation (or so it was before this year) - Lets not forget that the TEA party began, kicking and screaming, in Ron Paul's camp (civil-libertarians, defined) , and natively attracting fiscally minded to their cause... But it was turbocharged by the Reagan Christians, which is when it started cranking.

It might be said that Cruz, as a TEA party darling and an obvious leader for the Christian Right, showed that repair - with Christians conceding to his Federalist view on Marriage as at least satisfactory. We're close. It can come back together, and it is.

Our current malady aside (for it really can't be determined until Conservatives actually have their say in November), I think our job now is education - Even, and especially, in and within our own ranks. Many wear a conservative pin in their hat without any real idea of what it means, as due to the machinations of the NeoCons (and now Trump), the word has become little more than a catch phrase in political circles... Largely interchangeable with 'republican', especially in the Northeast.

It has long been my argument, from here in the more libertarian West,  that a proper Conservative conscience must necessarily be derived from the Judeo-Christian Ethic in friendly opposition with a Civil-Libertarian rule set. They necessarily must inform each other. It's what we must teach foremost - that sense of right and wrong, within the defined and limited powers of our Constitutional constructs. It is astonishing how few adhere to these very basic principle things...

And that is not to devalue our FICON and DEFCON brethren - Where conscience applies to their principles, they are contained within the above. As to the principles derived from disciplines, with a proper mindset, the disciplines will naturally follow.
 
@LonestarDream
@Norm Lenhart
@CatherineofAragon 
@sitetest
@markomalley

I'm less optimistic than you are.  I think the end of the republican era of the United States may be at hand.  With the kenyan anti-christ,  we are on the cusp of dictoatorshp.  After that, if we're  lucky,  we may last a while as a semi-hereditary empire, with the sovereign being passed around by a small number of powerful families.

Then, we will become another has-been nation.

[don-o]

There is no saving this and there is nothing as it stands worth saving. It has to collapse and from that collapse, our children, likely THEIR children, can rebuild what the leftists of the (mostly) Boomer and (partly) GenX generation stupidly threw away. If any education is to be done, it's the education of our kids so they have the tools to start the rebuild after we are gone.

I cannot dismiss the pessimism out of hand. Yet, even during the decay that gained foothold in the 60's, and has marched forward with mostly token resistance (Dear Pres Reagan, WHY Poppy Bush??!) intermediary institutions and associations have been springing up - Hillsdale College, homeschoolers. still free info access via internet. These are not of zero value.

AND, my son is training to fly striker jet fighters.

 

[roamer_1]

Had it for years. Hang it here.

Beautiful... And compensated for hill-folk, as they do... I see you plow your fields to the right....

( thx for the laugh, you really made my day) 

[roamer_1]

[...] has marched forward with mostly token resistance [...]

There's your problem, right there.

Liberalism does not make it's gains by way of it's veritas (which has been proven false again, and over again)... It wins because it has no opposition.

Those who represent us do not represent us, and they never have.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

@Norm Lenhart

[roamer_1]

I think that we have to accept that in a country split 50/50 in the electoral sense, everyone that can be educated, HAS been. The unfortunate reality is that we of the conservative bent have become a casualty of time. In short, ours, for now, has passed.

Right now, the overwhelming majority of the thing called America (but that shares nothing with the one the Founders created or ever intended) is leftist. All of the left obviously, and most of the right who demands pragmatism, lesser evil, and pines for people like Trump, with a lifetime record of support for leftist causes and positions, to lead them.

There is no saving this and there is nothing as it stands worth saving. It has to collapse and from that collapse, our children, likely THEIR children, can rebuild what the leftists of the (mostly) Boomer and (partly) GenX generation stupidly threw away. If any education is to be done, it's the education of our kids so they have the tools to start the rebuild after we are gone.

Y'all need to put yourself in the mindset of the Carter Malaise, and go read Limbaugh's 'See, I told you so'...