Author Topic: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval  (Read 21972 times)

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #250 on: June 02, 2016, 08:26:51 pm »
How would you suggest that we get an accurate accounting of the number of people that we don't know are here?

If Obama keeps getting his way, we'll be able to check the Obamacare, Welfare and Voting Registrations.  Being less flip and more thoughtful, I don't have a quick and easy answer.  Something that is less prone to fudging (lying).  If the ICE and BP were doing their job to their maximum ability, I'd have no trouble with using arrest statistics, provided we have a way of weeding repeat offenders out of the numbers.  Since we've moved into an age of a Sanctuary Country, with BP looking the other way all that they can, the arrest numbers just aren't reliable.

There is an inherent difficulty with counting people who are, by definition, undocumented.  Biometrics are only useful to determine if there's a repeat offender, so that's out.  It leaves the decennial Census, but that's a mess, too, since it got transferred out of Commerce to the White House basement.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #251 on: June 02, 2016, 08:32:51 pm »
How would you suggest that we get an accurate accounting of the number of people that we don't know are here?

I know on one at least.

He sideswiped my car last weekend.  Driving without a license, just a Mexican ID card.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #252 on: June 02, 2016, 08:37:31 pm »
If Obama keeps getting his way, we'll be able to check the Obamacare, Welfare and Voting Registrations.  Being less flip and more thoughtful, I don't have a quick and easy answer.  Something that is less prone to fudging (lying).  If the ICE and BP were doing their job to their maximum ability, I'd have no trouble with using arrest statistics, provided we have a way of weeding repeat offenders out of the numbers.  Since we've moved into an age of a Sanctuary Country, with BP looking the other way all that they can, the arrest numbers just aren't reliable.

There is an inherent difficulty with counting people who are, by definition, undocumented.  Biometrics are only useful to determine if there's a repeat offender, so that's out.  It leaves the decennial Census, but that's a mess, too, since it got transferred out of Commerce to the White House basement.

There is no way of knowing the things that you don't know happen. That's a given. So arrest statistics have always been used to estimate the volume of border crossings, because you assume that you are arresting a percentage of those trying to cross the border. You can't possibly know how many people you didn't arrest because you didn't see them... which is why you didn't arrest them to begin with.

That the number of illegals in the country is growing is a given. There are millions already here, and all the ones that are NOT apprehended at the border (or overstays their visa) add to those millions. There is also Obama's recent reinstatement of the Bush "catch and release" border program, which obviously adds to the number of illegals in the country.

But none of that is relative with border apprehension figures, and there is no direct connection with NAFTA and illegal immigration.

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #253 on: June 02, 2016, 08:51:26 pm »
There is no way of knowing the things that you don't know happen. That's a given. So arrest statistics have always been used to estimate the volume of border crossings, because you assume that you are arresting a percentage of those trying to cross the border. You can't possibly know how many people you didn't arrest because you didn't see them... which is why you didn't arrest them to begin with.

That the number of illegals in the country is growing is a given. There are millions already here, and all the ones that are NOT apprehended at the border (or overstays their visa) add to those millions. There is also Obama's recent reinstatement of the Bush "catch and release" border program, which obviously adds to the number of illegals in the country.

But none of that is relative with border apprehension figures, and there is no direct connection with NAFTA and illegal immigration.

I agree with everything you wrote, especially that last part.  In discussions about NAFTA and other trade agreements, immigration (legal or otherwise) is not very relevant.  Trade agreements are about goods, and immigration is about living, breathing people.  Apples/oranges.

I'm not sure I agree about the numbers continuing to grow, however.  The movement of the people has a lot to do with relative economic conditions, and with the sucky US economy of late it's not a sure thing that a ticket to the US is a ticket to endless bounty.  But that's a topic for another whole thread.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #254 on: June 02, 2016, 08:58:26 pm »
I agree with everything you wrote, especially that last part.  In discussions about NAFTA and other trade agreements, immigration (legal or otherwise) is not very relevant.  Trade agreements are about goods, and immigration is about living, breathing people.  Apples/oranges.

I'm not sure I agree about the numbers continuing to grow, however.  The movement of the people has a lot to do with relative economic conditions, and with the sucky US economy of late it's not a sure thing that a ticket to the US is a ticket to endless bounty.  But that's a topic for another whole thread.

Lately is about desperation.

The tell-tale sign is all the minor children being sent to the U.S.

The last time I saw that was in the early 1960's, when Cuban parents put their kids on an airplane to the U.S. without knowing where they would end up, or if they would ever see them again, just to get them out of Cuba before Castro closed all free travel out of the island.

Operation Peter Pan.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #255 on: June 02, 2016, 09:16:16 pm »
IIRC...Oil producers in the U.S. could build feeder pipelines (which mean even more jobs) from their oilfields into the main Keystone line...then pay a small sum to have their oil transported in the Keystone pilepline to the refinery.

Think of it as access roads feeding traffic into a major 6 lane highway.

@Smokin Joe that's a pretty basic description right?
It is. Something to consider, though. In situations where the lifetime of the well is indeterminate, (you just don't know), the more complex pipeline arrangements are, the more money planted in the ground, the more permits, rights of way, etc.

To a great extent, that is already being done with well pads in ND, for the purpose of gathering the wellhead gas produced with the oil to take that to processing facilities.

If you look at those production pads on Google Earth, you will see from six to as many as forty, four hundred barrel upright tanks on the location for the temporary storage of oil and water produced, and for now, that is trucked to rail terminals, pipeline facilities, or disposal wells (for the salt water). For now, the short hops are being made by truck, for the most part.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #256 on: June 02, 2016, 09:18:49 pm »
Sounds good, but I do not see it in fact acting that way.

Smokin Joe has said already that only 100,000 bopd of Bakken crude will use the Keystone pipeline.

In seeing this graph, http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Oil-Shipments-By-Rail-Declining.html, there is 600,000 bopd of Bakken crude moving by rail now.

@Smokin Joe
The 100,000 BOPD was the anticipated surplus takeaway capacity. That could vary with market or production. Having surplus capacity would let new wells get oil to market more quickly and cheaply.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #257 on: June 02, 2016, 09:22:16 pm »

I'm not sure I agree about the numbers continuing to grow, however.  The movement of the people has a lot to do with relative economic conditions, and with the sucky US economy of late it's not a sure thing that a ticket to the US is a ticket to endless bounty.  But that's a topic for another whole thread.
People make babies. It's what they do.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #258 on: June 02, 2016, 09:24:53 pm »
Lately is about desperation.

The tell-tale sign is all the minor children being sent to the U.S.

The last time I saw that was in the early 1960's, when Cuban parents put their kids on an airplane to the U.S. without knowing where they would end up, or if they would ever see them again, just to get them out of Cuba before Castro closed all free travel out of the island.

Operation Peter Pan.

My SIL in HI went to a circus once, and an elephant went rogue, tearing into the stands.  Parents were handing their little ones over the railings to God knows who, just to get them out of the danger.  Good point.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #259 on: June 02, 2016, 09:26:03 pm »
People make babies. It's what they do.

You wouldn't know it from all the crackpot transsexual bullcrap being spewed about the countryside....
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #260 on: June 02, 2016, 09:31:22 pm »
You wouldn't know it from all the crackpot transsexual bullcrap being spewed about the countryside....
Some groups buy into that nonsense--even the child ("transgender") abuse now available on cable TV channels.
We don't watch that crap in my house.
Groups which don't buy into that crap tend to make babies. Demographic trends tell you who is laughing at that stuff and who takes little Johnnie in a dress seriously.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #261 on: June 02, 2016, 09:38:50 pm »
Some groups buy into that nonsense--even the child ("transgender") abuse now available on cable TV channels.
We don't watch that crap in my house.
Groups which don't buy into that crap tend to make babies. Demographic trends tell you who is laughing at that stuff and who takes little Johnnie in a dress seriously.

Can't argue with that.  I reiterate what you said:  Look at the demographics of the baby-makers.  Mark Steyn had a whole book on the subject.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline wolfcreek

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #262 on: June 03, 2016, 12:01:04 am »
How would you suggest that we get an accurate accounting of the number of people that we don't know are here?

I can tell you how the Left is going to find out.....amnesty.

Thanks nevertrumpers

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #263 on: June 03, 2016, 12:12:37 am »
I can tell you how the Left is going to find out.....amnesty.

Thanks nevertrumpers
Oh not only No, but Hell NO! Don't even start that crap. If I had a dime for every time I have been told Trump doesn't need us, I could take my wife on a world cruise for her birthday.  Trump supporters are going to get the government they demanded, but y'all said it, you don't need us.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #264 on: June 03, 2016, 12:25:32 am »
I can tell you how the Left is going to find out.....amnesty.

Thanks nevertrumpers

I'm one of those people who won't vote for Trump, so your argument is that my not voting for Trump counts as a vote for Hillary, BUT... I'm not voting for Hillary either, which then means (by the logic of the whole "not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary" thing) that my not voting for Hillary is actually a vote for Trump.

There.

Feel better now?

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #265 on: June 03, 2016, 12:58:47 am »
The 100,000 BOPD was the anticipated surplus takeaway capacity. That could vary with market or production. Having surplus capacity would let new wells get oil to market more quickly and cheaply.

Why only 100,000 bopd surplus capacity when 600,000 bopd are now being railed and could enter line?

This continues to confuse me
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #266 on: June 03, 2016, 01:19:58 am »
Why only 100,000 bopd surplus capacity when 600,000 bopd are now being railed and could enter line?

This continues to confuse me
They could, theoretically, but that takeaway capacity is reserved for the Tar Sands Crude coming out of Calgary. (It is a Canadian Company, and their motive is to get their product to market). That relatively small amount would help, and another line is going in to handle Bakken Crude to Illinois, some 450,000 BOPD.http://www.daplpipelinefacts.com/

Rail will still take oil to markets relatively inaccessible by pipeline.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #267 on: June 04, 2016, 03:20:34 am »
Why only 100,000 bopd surplus capacity when 600,000 bopd are now being railed and could enter line?

This continues to confuse me

Several Bakken pipelines are in the works.  Keystone XL was primarily a Alberta crude/bitumen line and didn't even enter North Dakota.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #268 on: June 04, 2016, 04:28:35 am »
I can tell you how the Left is going to find out.....amnesty.

Thanks nevertrumpers

Trump supports amnesty.  But then you knew that already.

"I would get them back. I would get them back where they are, and I would try and work out a process where they can come in legally."

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Offline Mechanicos

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #269 on: June 04, 2016, 10:31:12 am »
Trump supports amnesty.  But then you knew that already.

"I would get them back. I would get them back where they are, and I would try and work out a process where they can come in legally."

-Donald Trump, July 2015-

Yep, you had to add your own spin. So an Immigrant coming in thru INS regulations and procedures is amnesty in your niche of a world eh? The Key is they leave and then only if legal admitted come back. Contrast your spin with real Amnesty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuGzdyt0xOc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CwVrfydjOI
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #270 on: June 04, 2016, 01:33:19 pm »
The 100,000 BOPD was the anticipated surplus takeaway capacity. That could vary with market or production. Having surplus capacity would let new wells get oil to market more quickly and cheaply.

Having that ability would appear to be a mute point when faced with falling production and fewer new wells to be drilled, hence no need for pipeline it seems.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #271 on: June 04, 2016, 01:36:22 pm »
Several Bakken pipelines are in the works.  Keystone XL was primarily a Alberta crude/bitumen line and didn't even enter North Dakota.

Seems pressure is building to not even transport by rail.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/4/critics-river-route-no-place-for-oil-trains-after-/
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #272 on: June 04, 2016, 02:36:26 pm »
Yep, you had to add your own spin. So an Immigrant coming in thru INS regulations and procedures is amnesty in your niche of a world eh?

Not so fast.  Let's look at Trump's words again:

Quote
"I would get them back. I would get them back where they are, and I would try and work out a process where they can come in legally."

-Donald Trump, July 2015-

So Trump is proposing a new process where illegals caught inside the United States will be able to enter the country legally - where their return will be expedited in contrast to the current system.  So no, we are not talking about the current "Immigrant coming in thru INS regulations and procedures" as you describe.  We are talking about immigrants caught in violation of immigration law, deported, and then have their return expedited under a brand new process which would grant them legal status.

That new legal status is what is known as 'amnesty'.
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Offline Mechanicos

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #273 on: June 04, 2016, 03:28:16 pm »
Not so fast.  Let's look at Trump's words again:

So Trump is proposing a new process where illegals caught inside the United States will be able to enter the country legally - where their return will be expedited in contrast to the current system.  So no, we are not talking about the current "Immigrant coming in thru INS regulations and procedures" as you describe.  We are talking about immigrants caught in violation of immigration law, deported, and then have their return expedited under a brand new process which would grant them legal status.

That new legal status is what is known as 'amnesty'.
The thing you keep skipping over is "Legally" that means thru INS. You got issues with Legal immigrants now? Legally means Immigration process. Only you add the false idea that its amnesty. You have nothing to support that delusion. By the way its way better then what your guy suggested.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #274 on: June 04, 2016, 08:00:28 pm »
So if Trump changes the law to expedite granting legal status to people who under current law are classified as 'illegal', you wouldn't consider that to be 'amnesty'?  Interesting.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-