Author Topic: What Would It Take for Donald Trump to Deport 11 Million and Build a Wall?  (Read 2018 times)

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Offline Suppressed

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What Would It Take for Donald Trump to Deport 11 Million and Build a Wall?
By JULIA PRESTON, ALAN RAPPEPORT and MATT RICHTELMAY 19, 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/20/us/politics/donald-trump-immigration.html

. . . excerpted . . .

Mass deportations: Adding chaos to dysfunction

...


Mr. Trump has said he would triple ICE’s deportation officers, to 15,000 from about 5,000. But even if that could be accomplished quickly — difficult given the vetting and training required — it would still be insufficient, experts said. The F.B.I. and other agencies would have to set aside some of their missions to help.

John Sandweg, who led ICE for seven months under Mr. Obama, said wholesale deportations could make it easier for immigrant gang members and drug traffickers to escape detection. “If the agents are looking for volume, they won’t spend the time to do the detective work tracking down the high-value bad guy who has fake documents, the hardened criminals in the shadows,” he said.

To prevent flight after arrest, the authorities would have to detain most immigrants awaiting deportation. Existing facilities, with about 34,000 beds, would have to be expanded to hold at least 300,000, Mr. Sandweg estimated, perhaps with tens of thousands of people in detention camps, similar to the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II.

Most deportations must be approved by judges. But backlogs in the 57 immigration courts are already severe, with waits as long as two years for a first hearing. The federal government would have to open dozens of emergency courts and hire hundreds of judges, shortcutting the painstaking selection process.

...

By any tally, the costs would be enormous. The American Action Forum, a conservative-leaning research group, calculated the federal outlay to be at least $400 billion, and then only if the deportations were stretched over 20 years.

...

The wall: Big, beautiful and impractical

...

Mr. Trump has shared few details. He has said that the wall would be built from precast concrete and steel and that it could be 50 feet tall, if not higher. After calling for it to extend across the entire 2,000-mile southern border, he more recently said half that length could be sufficient because of natural barriers. He has pegged the cost at $4 billion to $12 billion, most recently settling on around $10 billion.

...

Running the numbers, Mr. Sternfeld said a 40-foot-tall concrete wall using a “post and panel” system that went 10 feet below the ground — to minimize tunneling — would cost at least $26 billion. The logistics would be nightmarish, including multiple concrete casting sites and temporary housing for a crew of 1,000 workers if the job were to be completed within Mr. Trump’s first four-year term.

Maintenance would be an additional recurring expense, said Walter W. Boles, an engineering professor at Middle Tennessee State University who specializes in concrete construction. Deep trench work would also be necessary for keeping a wall of that height from toppling, he said, and seismic sensors to detect digging would be wise for preserving its integrity from below.

...

Maintaining water supplies: A diplomatic challenge

Billions of gallons flow between the United States and Mexico, funneling lifeblood to farms and communities on both sides of the border. The Colorado River sends water south; the Rio Grande, a natural boundary for hundreds of miles, delivers precious water from Mexico, through dozens of canals, to much of South Texas.

Water experts in the Southwest question how Mr. Trump’s border wall could accommodate those crucial flows and still provide the barrier he wants.

Another complication is that a nearly 50-year-old treaty between Mexico and the United States prevents any construction that obstructs or diverts the flow of the waterways. The wall, in other words, could not interfere in any way with the flow of water in either direction.

...

More...
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline truth_seeker

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It is funny. Since before 1986, conservatives have been disappointed, and stated they wanted MORE done about illegal immigration.

Improved barriers, and increased interior enforcement has been taken for granted, to be integral and part of better immigration control.

So along comes somebody that makes it central to his campaign, and all of a sudden those formerly aggressive "conservatives" wilt into "can't possibly do" apologists for the status quo.

On this issue, Trump's Republican opponents sound exactly like democrats.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Online Hoodat

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What's the point of building a wall if you're going to expedite the return of those you deported?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline ABX

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What's the point of building a wall if you're going to expedite the return of those you deported?

Yea, I remember a time when the revolving door amnesty was looked at as a liberal proposal (his proposal pretty much mirrors Kay Bailey Hutichson's) and would be a deal killer.

But let's get real, everyone except true believers knows he is just blowing smoke. If he was serious, he would have a serious, measurable and actionable plan. Not any of these dumb, WWE styled platitudes like saying 'the wall just got 10 feet higher' just because the Mexican president mouths off to him. Stuff like that is a good indication the only think he plans to build are applause tracks.

Offline don-o

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Wonder why he has not at least had an engineer and architect make a visual rendering?

I'll tell you why. Something THAT concrete would open him up to have to confront his disconnect from the reality of the thing.

Offline mirraflake

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Many illegals have been here 10-15-20 years and their kids are graduating from US high schools and many heading off to college.
Do you really think Trump will deport the Hispanic girl who was top of  her HS class and is now in college? 

The only deportation you will see will be of criminals and gangbangers and a tightening of future illegals> Maybe a wall in some high traffic areas.


Offline RoosGirl

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Wonder why he has not at least had an engineer and architect make a visual rendering?

I'll tell you why. Something THAT concrete would open him up to have to confront his disconnect from the reality of the thing.

Just a cross section of this kind of wall would be nice to see.  I don't think there's any way the kind of wall he is talking about could be built for $10 billion.  Just look at the cost of the Big Dig in Boston.  That was a highly complex design and build, but on a much smaller scale, length-wise, than this wall.  Think of the survey, geotech analysis,  the structural design, the civil design, the permitting, not to mention the cost of labor and materials.  Let's say that due to unbuildable areas the wall onky ends up being 1000 miles long, I'm guessing you'd have a thickness of 3' and a total of 50' (40' above ground and 10' below), you're talking  792 million cubic feet of concrete.

Offline Suppressed

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Just a cross section of this kind of wall would be nice to see.  I don't think there's any way the kind of wall he is talking about could be built for $10 billion.  Just look at the cost of the Big Dig in Boston.  That was a highly complex design and build, but on a much smaller scale, length-wise, than this wall.  Think of the survey, geotech analysis,  the structural design, the civil design, the permitting, not to mention the cost of labor and materials.  Let's say that due to unbuildable areas the wall onky ends up being 1000 miles long, I'm guessing you'd have a thickness of 3' and a total of 50' (40' above ground and 10' below), you're talking  792 million cubic feet of concrete.

In 2006, the Bush administration signed the Secure Fence Act, and $2.4 billion was spent to construct 670 miles of fencing over three years, according to a 2009 Government Accountability Office report.

So for four times as much (not adjusted for inflation), he says we're going to get this YUGE wall double the length.  Uh-huh.
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline sinkspur

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It is funny. Since before 1986, conservatives have been disappointed, and stated they wanted MORE done about illegal immigration.

Improved barriers, and increased interior enforcement has been taken for granted, to be integral and part of better immigration control.

So along comes somebody that makes it central to his campaign, and all of a sudden those formerly aggressive "conservatives" wilt into "can't possibly do" apologists for the status quo.

On this issue, Trump's Republican opponents sound exactly like democrats.

Nobody believes Trump is going to build a wall because Trump has no intention of building a wall, unless like his supporter Chris Collins in New York says, it's a "virtual wall."

Quote
Buffalo New York Congressman Chris Collins (R-NY) was the first member of Congress to endorse presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump and he's become a key campaign surrogate for the reputed billionaire businessman. But in a Tuesday interview with The Buffalo News, Collins said he believed two of Trump's signature campaign proposals would never be carried out.

Collins said he believed the wall Trump promised to build along the US-Mexico border would be more an idea than a physical wall. “I have called it a virtual wall. Maybe we will be building a wall over some aspects of it; I don’t know.

“I call it a rhetorical deportation of 12 million people,” Collins said.
He then gestured toward a door in his Capitol Hill office.

“They go out that door, they go in that room, they get their work papers, Social Security number, then they come in that door, and they’ve got legal work status but are not citizens of the United States,” Collins said. “So there was a virtual deportation as they left that door for processing and came in this door.”

Collins added: “We’re not going to put them on a bus, and we’re not going to drive them across the border.”

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/top-trump-surrogate-says-border-wall-and-mass-deportation-will-be-virtual
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Suppressed

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Nobody believes Trump is going to build a wall because Trump has no intention of building a wall, unless like his supporter Chris Collins in New York says, it's a "virtual wall."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/top-trump-surrogate-says-border-wall-and-mass-deportation-will-be-virtual

All he'll have to do is make some useless gestures toward it, and then complain that it was obstructionism from Congress and the EPA, etc.
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Relic

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Nobody believes Trump is going to build a wall because Trump has no intention of building a wall, unless like his supporter Chris Collins in New York says, it's a "virtual wall."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/top-trump-surrogate-says-border-wall-and-mass-deportation-will-be-virtual

TPM? Really?

*sigh*

Offline sinkspur

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TPM? Really?

*sigh*

Did you read what the big Trump supporter said?  There's going to be no wall.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Relic

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Did you read what the big Trump supporter said?  There's going to be no wall.

I never thought, nor said there would be a wall.

But I'd have to get verification if TPM posted that grass is green. The only way to go harder left is to post directly from DU.

Offline Charlespg

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75% tax on all remittances  to Mexico  sounds good
Rather Trump Then Cackles Clinton

Offline sinkspur

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75% tax on all remittances  to Mexico  sounds good

Since there will be no wall, the funding of it is moot.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline skeeter

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What's the point of building a wall if you're going to expedite the return of those you deported?

Good question.

Although he may increase the size of the border patrol and make empty but high profile gestures to satisfy his supporters, Trump will do very little of what he said he'd do about illegal immigration. Portions of a wall may be contracted out to satisfy unions. To 'save cost' touchback in the home country will become touchback at the local US State Dept office.

And he'll get away with it. Because none of this will cool the support of his true believers.

Offline bolobaby

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You hardly have to deport 11 million through force. Instead...

1. Deny all illegals and their children public services - this includes education, public healthcare, and welfare.
2. Aggressively enforce labor laws and impose the strictest fines in all cases. Expand eVerify to ensure employers can properly validate their workforce.
3. Pass a federal law indicating that renting to illegal aliens is aiding and abetting a federal immigration crime. Prosecute those that rent to illegals. Expand eVerify to allow landlords to validate their tenants.
4. Detain and deport all illegals identified by law enforcement during the course of any enforcement work - this includes traffic stops. Any stateside property of illegals will be seized as additional punative penalty.
5. Offer ONE benefit to illegals - assisted self-deportation. A comfy ride back home with whatever they can carry.

With no services, no work, no place to live, and under the constant threat of getting kicked out and losing their property, illegals will deport themselves the same way they came in: they'll hoof it across the border.

See ya.

Now, the wall. Sure, we can build it, but it will be less valuable if illegals are self-deporting. Besides, Trump won't build it anyway. He'll renege later and claim the threat of it was a "negotiating tool" to get some ridiculously bad deal that conservatives will hate, but that liberals and the press will laud as the next best thing since Obamacare.

Edit: You might have to add something to the list of birthright citizenship. For example, in order to obtain it, at least one parent must be here legally, and not on a tourist visa.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 06:46:52 pm by bolobaby »
How to lose credibility while posting:
1. Trump is never wrong.
2. Default to the most puerile emoticon you can find. This is especially useful when you can't win an argument on merits.
3. Be falsely ingratiating, completely but politely dismissive without talking to the points, and bring up Hillary whenever the conversation is really about conservatism.
4. When all else fails, remember rule #1 and #2. Emoticons are like the poor man's tweet!

Offline RaceBannon

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It is funny. Since before 1986, conservatives have been disappointed, and stated they wanted MORE done about illegal immigration.

Improved barriers, and increased interior enforcement has been taken for granted, to be integral and part of better immigration control.

So along comes somebody that makes it central to his campaign, and all of a sudden those formerly aggressive "conservatives" wilt into "can't possibly do" apologists for the status quo.

On this issue, Trump's Republican opponents sound exactly like democrats.

Trump didnt say anything that Cruz hadn't already been saying, he just said it more crudely.

Dollars to donuts, he wont do any of this, he is lying about his lying, it is all he does


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Offline Fishrrman

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Charlespg wrote:
"75% tax on all remittances  to Mexico  sounds good"

I'm not sure whether that could survive a court challenge. "Equal protection under law", and all that.

However -- I DO believe that a "remittance tax" is the way to do it.

First, make it a surcharge on ALL remittances that are sent out of the country (that solves the argument that a tax on only remittances to Mexico would be "discriminatory").

Secondly, make it substantial enough to yield significant revenue but not overly so. I'd say in the range of 15% would be about right. Otherwise, the surcharge might be struck down by the courts as "oppressive".

Finally, reward the outfits that normally process remittances (such as Western Union) for cooperating by granting them a small portion of the revenue (perhaps .01% of each dollar processed). This will make it worth their while to -not- oppose such a program. The carrot, rather than the stick.

The lion's share of the revenue generated from the remittance tax would go (at the beginning) for the border barrier construction.

After the barrier is in place, the funds could be used for maintenance, staffing, and training.

This is how we will "make Mexico pay" for it -- through a tax upon its own citizens (notwithstanding that those "Mexican citizens" are here illegally).

Perhaps a modest percentage could also be earmarked for the specific purpose of identifying and deporting illegals here with criminal records.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 02:08:37 am by Fishrrman »