Author Topic: Cruz: Those who bolstered Trump 'will bear that responsibility going forward'  (Read 122353 times)

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Offline Bigun

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Maybe we were watching different campaigns, but when the race came down to Cruz and Trump, it looked to me like the overwhelming majority of the establishment sided with Cruz.  So I don't see them as having preferred Trump at all.

Again, that's exactly the opposite of how I saw the race -- they backed Cruz over Trump.  The problem was by the time the anti-Trump elements of the party rallied around Cruz, it was too late.  Didn't help that Kasich was still in the race either.

There must be something in the water down here in Texas because I didn't see it that way at all!  They were ALL telling us that they prefered Trump over Cruz in fact!

Here is just ONE example:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1tIH5XhXa0

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Offline libertybele

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I can't stand Trump, and preferred Rubio, then Cruz.  Still do.

But I didn't like the comments either of them made after Chicago.  And to illustrate why I didn't...why did both Cruz and Rubio mention the "tone" of Trump's campaign at all in relation to the rioting in Chicago?  What was the relevance of Trump's "tone" to the rioting?

As soon as you try to answer the question of why they said it, you can see why their responses ticked off some people, including (just as one example), me.  As far as I'm concerned, the "tone" of Trump's campaign is something that all Republicans should have argued was completely irrelevant to the actions of the rioters.  It detracts from the focus on the people who were actually to blame, and invites people to conclude that blame should somehow be shared between the rioters and Trump.

And at the point, the rioters win.

It IS the "tone" of Trump's campaign that incites others.  Trump is definitely 100% not responsible for anyone's actions other than his own.  He is however responsible for what comes out of his mouth. Saying that he could punch someone in the face or that he could shoot someone and he wouldn't lose voters is not exactly speaking about peaceful situations, promoting calmness and certainly quite alarming coming out of a presidential candidates mouth.  Obviously in order for people to react to Trump there must be something he said or he did that caused them to react.  Yes the rioters and the looters should be held accountable, but keep in mind that Trump must also be held accountable for what he says and does, perhaps even more so because he is running for the leader of our country; including leading by example. 

IMHO for why Cruz and Rubio reacted they way that they did; I think they saw that his comments hurt the primary process and muddied the waters of the GOP and certainly shouldn't be coming for someone running for president. He has personified the left's description and propaganda of the right; angry, rich, white men.   He is a disgusting, vile, vulgar human being and is unfit to be Commander in Chief.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 03:15:39 pm by libertybele »
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Wow.  I didn't see it that way at all.  You're telling me that the Paul Ryans, McConnells, Romneys, Bushs, etc. were openly supporting Cruz over Trump?

Ryan and McConnell didn't endorse anyway during the primaries, but here are some others:

Here's a video of Jeb endorsing Cruz over Trump:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/jeb-bush-ted-cruz-endorsement/index.html

Romney voted for Cruz as an "anyone but Trump" vote, so he clearly preferred Cruz to Trump as well:

https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2016/03/romney-endorses-cruz-for-wrong-reasons

Rubio also expressed a preference for Cruz over Trump:

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/04/13/marco-rubio-endorses-ted-cruz-i-hope-they-nominate-a-conservative-cruz-is-the-only-one/


Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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It IS the "tone" of Trump's campaign that incites others.....Obviously in order for people to react to Trump there must be something he said or he did that caused them to react. 

Well, there you go.  So we now talk about rioters who were "incited" by Trump, and who were "reacting to what he said".

I don't care one whit why there were riots -- what I care about is the fact that there were people rioting simply because they didn't like an opposing politicians. That, and that alone, should have been the focus.  This talk of "incitement" or "reaction" simply pulls the spotlight away from the thugs who, unlike Trump, were committing criminal acts.

I truly see this as absolutely no different from the little black dress rape.  Is it dumb to go walking in a skimpy outfit, alone, in a bad part of town?  Sure, just as some of the stuff Trump says is dumb.  But those entirely lawful actions should drop completely out of the equation when it comes to discussing any acts of violence that occur.  And so for those other GOP candidates to mention Trump's "tone" in the very same breath as discussing the rioters sends entirely the wrong message, and I was ticked at both Rubio and Cruz when they said that.

ETA:  This should be unnecessary, but I'll add that just because I think both Rubio and Cruz handled this poorly did not mean that I suddenly decided to prefer Trump to either of them.  It is entirely possible that a candidate you don't like happens to be right on one particular issue where the guys you prefer are wrong.  There is a bit too much of "my guy is always right, and the other guy is always wrong" that goes on, and it sometimes leads to people making arguments that are more dependent on which "side" they are on than the actual merits of the point being discussed.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 03:49:03 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Probably the same "tone" that tends to stir things up here.

I didn't ask what the "tone" was.  I asked what Trump's tone had to do with the illegal actions of the rioters.

I don't think it is possible to answer that without at least implicitly saying that Trump is at least partially responsible.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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There must be something in the water down here in Texas because I didn't see it that way at all!  They were ALL telling us that they prefered Trump over Cruz in fact!

Here is just ONE example:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1tIH5XhXa0

The post of mine you quoted was in direct response to at statement that the "National GOP" backed Trump over Cruz.  So your quoting of Jimmy Carter doesn't support that proposition.

Offline Sanguine

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I didn't ask what the "tone" was.  I asked what Trump's tone had to do with the illegal actions of the rioters.

I don't think it is possible to answer that without at least implicitly saying that Trump is at least partially responsible.

OK, I'll say it then: words have meanings and saying them have consequences.

Offline Sanguine

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Ryan and McConnell didn't endorse anyway during the primaries, but here are some others:

Here's a video of Jeb endorsing Cruz over Trump:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/jeb-bush-ted-cruz-endorsement/index.html

Romney voted for Cruz as an "anyone but Trump" vote, so he clearly preferred Cruz to Trump as well:

https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2016/03/romney-endorses-cruz-for-wrong-reasons

Rubio also expressed a preference for Cruz over Trump:

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/04/13/marco-rubio-endorses-ted-cruz-i-hope-they-nominate-a-conservative-cruz-is-the-only-one/

Weak.  Very weak.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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OK, I'll say it then: words have meanings and saying them have consequences.

Words should never be met with violence. If you're arguing that Trump supporters deserve violence because of Trump's words, then I hope Trump supporters arm themselves against what you feel they deserve.

And I feel Trump is an unqualified, un-knowledgeable ass-clown.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Weak.  Very weak.

Your response lacks substance.  I was asked to provide examples of GOP establishment politicians -- specifically including Bush and Romney who preferred Cruz to Trump, and did exactly that.  The only evidence you've offered that the National GOP supported Trump over Cruz is a Trump endorsement by Jimmy Carter.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Words should never be met with violence. If you're arguing that Trump supporters deserve violence because of Trump's words, then I hope Trump supporters arm themselves against what you feel they deserve.

And I feel Trump is an unqualified, un-knowledgeable ass-clown.

 :thumbsup:

Offline Bigun

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The post of mine you quoted was in direct response to at statement that the "National GOP" backed Trump over Cruz.  So your quoting of Jimmy Carter doesn't support that proposition.

The GOPe and Jimmuah Caaaata! are one in the same as far as I'm concerned!  They are all members of the same party!  The protect us inside the beltway bastards at all costs party!
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Offline INVAR

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I do recall the Politico running a story about the "Establishment" getting behind Cruz in the last gasps of his campaign.  The "Politico" being where the Oligarchy dumps their press releases and leaks.  Most of it attributed to "Insiders" if I recall that said the GOP Establishment was prepared to lose the White House to Hillary because they believed doing so would enable them to keep the House and Senate.  I thought I remember some of the reasoning being discussed was due to the belief that Trump as the nominee would cost the GOP both houses AND the White House.

I think that the reluctant acceptance of Trump by the GOP monarchy has more to do with their growing confidence that Trump was not going to upset their fascist gravy train.  However Trump's recent outlandish behavior is once again making them sweat that their first instincts may be proven correct and they run the risk of losing both the House and Senate.

As to tone, it would be foolhardy to think that a demagogue who speaks like Trump does about all his targets of derision and ridicule in the manner that he does, has no role in creating a zeitgeist and atmosphere that makes violence easily stoked and engaged.

History proves that as a fact.


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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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The GOPe and Jimmuah Caaaata! are one in the same as far as I'm concerned!  They are all members of the same party!  The protect us inside the beltway bastards at all costs party!

Well, you're certainly capable of making up your own idiosyncratic definitions if you choose, but no rational or fair-minded person would claim that Jimmy Carter is part of the "National GOP."  It's even more ridiculous given the particular context in which this is being discussed, which goes back to the statement to which I originally responded, and challenged:

The national GOP made an irreversible error when they backed Trump over Cruz.

If someone wants to produce some quotes showing that "the national GOP" actually did back Trump over Cruz, fine.  We can then have a reasonable discussion.  But the best anyone has come up with so far in support of that statement is a quote from Jimmy Carter.  In contrast, when asked specifically for evidence of Bush or Romney supporting Cruz over Romney, I provided actual links showing exactly that.  I suppose another avenue would be show how GOP Establishment SuperPACS spent more money attacking Cruz than they did Trump, but somehow, I suspect the numbers would again show the exact opposite.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 04:44:47 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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I do recall the Politico running a story about the "Establishment" getting behind Cruz in the last gasps of his campaign.  The "Politico" being where the Oligarchy dumps their press releases and leaks.  Most of it attributed to "Insiders" if I recall that said the GOP Establishment was prepared to lose the White House to Hillary because they believed doing so would enable them to keep the House and Senate.  I thought I remember some of the reasoning being discussed was due to the belief that Trump as the nominee would cost the GOP both houses AND the White House.

INVAR, I wasn't the one who made the initial claim that the "National GOP" supported one of those guys over the other period.  Another poster did, and I questioned that because it wasn't what I remembered.  I then offered actual evidence from Bush and Romney themselves -- not just a Politico story -- that they backed Cruz over Trump.  Nobody has posted a substantive response to that.

Now, if someone wants to offer some actual evidence that the reverse was true, fine.  But I'm not sure how much more "National GOP" or "GOP Establishment" you can get than Bush, Romney, and Rubio, and given that all three were quoted as supporting Cruz over Trump...I think it's a tall order.

Quote
As to tone, it would be foolhardy to think that a demagogue who speaks like Trump does about all his targets of derision and ridicule in the manner that he does, has no role in creating a zeitgeist and atmosphere that makes violence easily stoked and engaged.  History proves that as a fact.

The left rioting because they don't like something is hardly a phenomenon that began with Trump.  Leftist goons have been shutting down and disrupting conservative speakers on college campuses and elsewhere for decades, and it gets virtually no coverage by the left-leaning media because they don't want to be perceived as anti-college student, or as endorsing what the speaker was saying.   And when they do it, their rationale has always been "we think that's offensive and you shouldn't be allowed to say it, so this is really your fault". 

Am I the only one that remembers that?  Heck, the same type of goons, this time from BLM actually disrupted a Democrat meeting by shouting down O'Malley and Bernie.  And in general, the media is reluctant to call them out on that for fear of being perceived as supporting the "offensive" ideas.  This is a long-term problem that has gotten progressively worse over time, with the radical left constantly moving the goalposts as to what constitutes speech they will tolerate.  And this is an issue that conservatives should be united in combatting.

So when thousands of violent leftist goons show up to try to shut down a rally, and then assault peaceful citizens who are exiting the rally, I don't care what Trump is saying inside because that dwarfs the far more serious, long-term problem of the left forcibly silencing viewpoints they don't like.  And when Cruz and Rubio say, "the rioters are wrong, but Trump really shouldn't be inciting that stuff with his comments", they are giving the left exactly what they want. The leftist radicals don't care if they are condemned.  All they care about is being able to squelch viewpoints they don't like, and if what they get out of this is coverage that is split between condemning them, and condemning what Trump says, then they have accomplished their goals.

I truly cannot believe that so many self-described conservatives cannot see the monstrous crime of using force to shut down opposition political speech for the critical issue that it is.  Instead, they want to use it as another opportunity to get in their digs that Trump is an undeserving jackass.  Of course he is, but that shouldn't even enter the equation when discussing the violence of the left, because that simply gives them exactly what they want.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 04:45:36 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

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.... I wasn't the one who made the initial claim that the "National GOP" supported one of those guys over the other period.  Another poster did, and I questioned that because it wasn't what I remembered.  I then offered actual evidence from Bush and Romney themselves -- not just a Politico story -- that they backed Cruz over Trump.  Nobody has posted a substantive response to that.



The "Establishment" clearly put forth forth Cruz as their choice...if only in desperation to stop the Trump Train.

Doesn't anybody recall Lindsey Graham's 'non-endorsement' endorsement of Cruz?   He said his personal preferred candidate was Kasich.

It was conducted no differently than a sandlot pickup game, where the last players remaining end up batting 9th and play RF.
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Offline driftdiver

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The "Establishment" clearly put forth forth Cruz as their choice...if only in desperation to stop the Trump Train.

Doesn't anybody recall Lindsey Graham's 'non-endorsement' endorsement of Cruz?   He said his personal preferred candidate was Kasich.

It was conducted no differently than a sandlot pickup game, where the last players remaining end up batting 9th and play RF.

Cruz is hardly the establishment candidate.  That was Jeb.    It was only late in the primaries the GOP started backing Cruz as an alternative to the lunatic.  Hardly makes Cruz an establishment candidate though.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 04:53:39 pm by driftdiver »
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Offline aligncare

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INVAR, I wasn't the one who made the initial claim that the "National GOP" supported one of those guys over the other period.  Another poster did, and I questioned that because it wasn't what I remembered.  I then offered actual evidence from Bush and Romney themselves -- not just a Politico story -- that they backed Cruz over Trump.  Nobody has posted a substantive response to that.

Now, if someone wants to offer some actual evidence that the reverse was true, fine.  But I'm not sure how much more "National GOP" or "GOP Establishment" you can get than Bush, Romney, and Rubio, and given that all three were quoted as supporting Cruz over Trump...I think it's a tall order.

The left rioting because they don't like something is hardly a phenomenon that began with Trump.  Leftist goons have been shutting down and disrupting conservative speakers on college campuses and elsewhere for decades, and it gets virtually no coverage by the left-leaning media because they don't want to be perceived as anti-college student, or as endorsing what the speaker was saying.   And when they do it, their rationale has always been "we think that's offensive and you shouldn't be allowed to say it, so this is really your fault". 

Am I the only one that remembers that?  Heck, the same type of goons, this time from BLM actually disrupted a Democrat meeting by shouting down O'Malley and Bernie.  And in general, the media is reluctant to call them out on that for fear of being perceived as supporting the "offensive" ideas.  This is a long-term problem that has gotten progressively worse over time, with the radical left constantly moving the goalposts as to what constitutes speech they will tolerate.  And this is an issue that conservatives should be united in combatting.

So when thousands of violent leftist goons show up to try to shut down a rally, and then assault peaceful citizens who are exiting the rally, I don't care what Trump is saying inside because that dwarfs the far more serious, long-term problem of the left forcibly silencing viewpoints they don't like.  And when Cruz and Rubio say, "the rioters are wrong, but Trump really shouldn't be inciting that stuff with his comments", they are giving the left exactly what they want. The leftist radicals don't care if they are condemned.  All they care about is being able to squelch viewpoints they don't like, and if what they get out of this is coverage that is split between condemning them, and condemning what Trump says, then they have accomplished their goals.

I truly cannot believe that so many self-described conservatives cannot see the monstrous crime of using force to shut down opposition political speech for the critical issue that it is.  Instead, they want to use it as another opportunity to get in their digs that Trump is an undeserving jackass.  Of course he is, but that shouldn't even enter the equation when discussing the violence of the left, because that simply gives them exactly what they want.

I agree with everything you said here, except the part about Trump being an undeserving jackass. But, then you probably could have guessed that's a position I would take.

I was neutral on Ted Cruz until he said the Trump Chicago rioters had a point. I think Ted Cruz revealed his human side with that remark. In other words, he wanted to win against Trump so bad he was willing to use leftist language and tactics.

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Cruz is hardly the establishment candidate.  That was Jeb.    It was only late in the primaries the GOP started backing Cruz as an alternative to the lunatic.  Hardly makes Cruz an establishment candidate though.

He played on their team upon the endorsement.

Of course, Jeb was their preferred candidate.   But again, like in baseball, they traded for a closer (Ted Cruz), holding their noses all the way...thinking it would fill the seats in order to stop "TRUMP".

He got shellacked.   Or...is it "schlonged"?
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Offline Sanguine

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Words should never be met with violence. If you're arguing that Trump supporters deserve violence because of Trump's words, then I hope Trump supporters arm themselves against what you feel they deserve.

And I feel Trump is an unqualified, un-knowledgeable ass-clown.

No, I'm not arguing that - where would you get that idea?

That's a leap too far.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 05:28:06 pm by Sanguine »

Offline Sanguine

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Your response lacks substance.  I was asked to provide examples of GOP establishment politicians -- specifically including Bush and Romney who preferred Cruz to Trump, and did exactly that.  The only evidence you've offered that the National GOP supported Trump over Cruz is a Trump endorsement by Jimmy Carter.

You seem to be confusing responses.  I said absolutely nothing about Carter, for instance.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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No, I'm not arguing that - where would you get that idea?

That's a leap too far.

When you say words have consequence you seem to be taking the position that Trump supporters got what they deserved. Glad to know that isn't the case.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Maybe we were watching different campaigns, but when the race came down to Cruz and Trump, it looked to me like the overwhelming majority of the establishment sided with Cruz.  So I don't see them as having preferred Trump at all.

Again, that's exactly the opposite of how I saw the race -- they backed Cruz over Trump.  The problem was by the time the anti-Trump elements of the party rallied around Cruz, it was too late.  Didn't help that Kasich was still in the race either.
The GOP siding with Cruz against Trump was a poison pill.
At that point, Trump's claim to fame was that he was an outsider.
Cruz, by benefit of having stuck to his guns in DC and fought the GOPe in the Senate was also considered an "outsider"--he lost that when the GOP climbed on board as the other candidates dropped out.
One of the big arguments I saw was that with the GOP hacks on board, it just proved that Cruz was GOP-e all along, and only Trump was a true outsider.
That 'support' hurt him, imho, as intended.
Note the GOP didn't call for Kasich to drop out, so the non-Trump vote was split between Kasich and Cruz.
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Offline the_doc

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I do recall the Politico running a story about the "Establishment" getting behind Cruz in the last gasps of his campaign.  The "Politico" being where the Oligarchy dumps their press releases and leaks.  Most of it attributed to "Insiders" if I recall that said the GOP Establishment was prepared to lose the White House to Hillary because they believed doing so would enable them to keep the House and Senate.  I thought I remember some of the reasoning being discussed was due to the belief that Trump as the nominee would cost the GOP both houses AND the White House.

I think that the reluctant acceptance of Trump by the GOP monarchy has more to do with their growing confidence that Trump was not going to upset their fascist gravy train.  However Trump's recent outlandish behavior is once again making them sweat that their first instincts may be proven correct and they run the risk of losing both the House and Senate.

As to tone, it would be foolhardy to think that a demagogue who speaks like Trump does about all his targets of derision and ridicule in the manner that he does, has no role in creating a zeitgeist and atmosphere that makes violence easily stoked and engaged.

History proves that as a fact.

Ditto.

The GOPe guys have always feared Cruz.  (See WAC's post #706.)  They knew that Ted Cruz would jostle their apple cart pretty badly.   

Of course, they certainly didn't like Trump's attacks against the GOPe luminaries, and the GOPe guys definitely did flirt with the idea of supporting Cruz in spite of their fears of Cruz.  Ah, but that flirtation was brief.  Trump apparently convinced them at Hollywood Florida that his attacks were all for show and that he was just a tough-talking crony capitalist--i.e., a lovely RINO just like so many members of the GOPe....so, they wound up pretty solidly backing Trump.   

As you intimated, it was ONLY when they realized that a Trump candidacy in the general election could completely blow away their guys in the House and Senate and also lose the White House itself that they began facing the reality of Trump's monstrous character and other obvious disqualifications.  They realized that a bungling, blustering, and conspicuously amoral idiot like Trump could completely obliterate their apple cart.  So....now they seem to be seriously considering dumping Trump.

In short, the GOPe are stumbling around in the dark and knocking over furniture and calling it good politics.  If they block Trump on the first ballot, I can only hope the RNC convention's delegates have better judgment than to keep blocking Cruz--who was far and away the best man for the nomination and for the nation.   

Offline Smokin Joe

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I can't stand Trump, and preferred Rubio, then Cruz.  Still do.

But I didn't like the comments either of them made after Chicago.  And to illustrate why I didn't...why did both Cruz and Rubio mention the "tone" of Trump's campaign at all in relation to the rioting in Chicago?  What was the relevance of Trump's "tone" to the rioting?

As soon as you try to answer the question of why they said it, you can see why their responses ticked off some people, including (just as one example), me.  As far as I'm concerned, the "tone" of Trump's campaign is something that all Republicans should have argued was completely irrelevant to the actions of the rioters.  It detracts from the focus on the people who were actually to blame, and invites people to conclude that blame should somehow be shared between the rioters and Trump.

And at the point, the rioters win.
First, how many interviews does a candidate get with 14 candidates? When are they going to mention those issues? Cruz was asked about the riots and he responded that the responsibility for the actions of the rioters belonged with the rioters.

It doesn't get any more simple and plain than that.

At the time, Trump's rhetoric was angry, capitalizing on the anger and frustration of the voters, with protesters inside the rally being handled roughly by his supporters.
Anyone who thinks that didn't attract some backlash is silly. Add in an (allegedly) Soros backed rentamob, and Trump practically had the airwaves to himself.

If the other candidates can't mention more than one issue in a press conference or an interview, where does that leave us? It is up to the voter to be intelligent enough to listen to what is being said and understand it.

As for tone of campaign inviting a response by protesters, where were the street riots in front of Rubio rallys? Or Carson? Or Kasich?  Or JEB? Not there. Maybe if they had hired themselves a rentamob they would have had more airtime in the MSM.

 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis