Author Topic: If the Donald Loses in November, It Won’t Be #NeverTrump That’s to Blame  (Read 4365 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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The Limits of Wrongness
By Jonah Goldberg


The merry pranksters at the Washington Free Beacon put together this super-cut of Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski gloating over and over again about how they were right about the Trump phenomenon when so many others were wrong. It’s fairly nauseating to watch:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOPJKEKYLt4

Scarborough insists on air and off that he’s not in the tank for Donald Trump. Rather, he says that he and Mika are “in the tank for . . . truth!” He claims the reason so many think he’s pro-Trump boils down to professional jealousy. I should say that after conducting a vigorous personal inventory of my motives, jealousy of Scarborough’s foresight really doesn’t play much of a role in my own annoyance with his obvious Trump-boosterism. Nor have I talked with any Trump critic who’s said, “You know, the thing that really burns my ass about Scarborough’s Trump man-crush is, he called this so early.” (This also assumes that Scarborough’s “predictions” were based on dispassionate analysis rather than an investment in Trump boosterism that simply paid off.)

But this gloat-a-thon does raise a larger point. Trump’s candidacy has ignited a riot of question-begging and non sequiturs across the land. Every day I hear from scores of people who insist that because I was wrong about Trump’s chances to win the nomination, I must be wrong not only about his chances in the general election, but also about his qualifications to be president at all. I should say, it is entirely fair to doubt my prognostication skills on how Trump will perform in the general given how wrong I was in the primaries. Of course, failure to predict black swans — or in this case, Creamsicle-orange ones — is not necessarily as damning as some think. It was utterly reasonable to predict that Trump wouldn’t do this well, just as it’s entirely reasonable to say, “There will be no zombie apocalypse.” But, if the dead do rise from their graves, such assurances will look pretty stupid. And while the zombie-preppers in our midst will surely have the last laugh, I’m not sure I have to concede they’re all geniuses, even when a reanimated Abe Vigoda is munching on my larynx.

I honestly believe that Trump would crash in the general election like so much blue ice from an Aeroflot jetliner. I don’t think he can flip any of the states in the Democratic “blue wall,” and I think there’s a strong likelihood he’d fail to hold on to some of the states in the Republican “red wall.” Talk to political handicappers in Arizona and Utah, for instance, and they will tell you he’s very likely to lose there and take other Republican candidates down with him. For example, Trump boosters point to his blow-out win in New York as evidence he can flip the state. I agree with Ross Douthat: This is delusional. Bush got more votes than Trump in the New York primary in 2000 — when that primary didn’t even matter — and still lost the state in the general by 15 points. Both Sanders and Clinton got a lot more votes than Trump.

Trump loves to cite how he “won” with Hispanics in Nevada, leaving out that he was talking about a statistical handful of self-identified Republican Hispanics in a caucus. Among Hispanics generally, Trump polls only slightly better than ass cancer. His numbers are somewhat better with women, but still within sight of ass-cancer margins. Yes, Trump does well with white men, but he’d have to do roughly ten points better than Reagan in his 1984 landslide (the high water mark for white-male turnout) to even be competitive. His boosters point to Hillary’s undeniable vulnerabilities, while leaving out that Trump’s negatives are much worse. Still, I could be wrong about all of this. There’s no disputing Trump is a disrupter, that he overturns many of the rules that we mistakenly thought were binding. Good for him. So maybe he’ll keep defying expectations. Reasonable people can debate that point. Less reasonable is the claim that because I was wrong about Trump’s chances, I must therefore be wrong about Trump’s qualifications and character. If you predicted in 2006 that Obama would be the Democratic nominee, congrats! That, however, is not an argument for why he should have been the nominee or the president. It’s a confusion of “is” and “ought” and I see it everywhere. While my opposition to Trump is not primarily an argument about electability, I’ve been focusing on that angle lately because the establishment opportunists, quislings, sell-outs, pragmatists, and harlots are more persuadable on these grounds than arguments over principle. People open to principled arguments against Trump have already been persuaded. The John Boehner and K Street caucus on the other hand has made peace with Trump because they understand he’s a guy they can “cut deals” with. They hate Ted Cruz because they know or fear he isn’t. I’m not saying that everyone who supports Trump isn’t a conservative or isn’t principled. I am saying I think they’re wrong.

I’ll make one last point on all this. I think it’s fascinating how so many people are already pre-blaming a Trump loss on the #NeverTrumpers. My old friend John Nolte seems blinded with rage at all of us, tweeting, “If Trump loses to Hillary . . . I will forever blame #NeverTrump.” Herman Cain is on Fox every five minutes ranting and bullying Trump opponents as fools and de facto Hillary supporters. I am beset by Lilliputian trolls on Twitter insisting I am pro-Hillary (a strange case to make if you read my chapter on her in Liberal Fascism — or quite literally anything I’ve ever written about her). To the extent this stuff isn’t simply stupid, it amounts to coercion. Get on the bandwagon! Or else. Indeed, every day I get a half dozen threats along these lines:


Now, I get it. I don’t want Hillary to be president either. And in politics sometimes people feel like they have to crack the whip to get the stragglers back in the herd. Also, it’s clear to me that as Ian Tuttle wrote this week, a major motivation of Trumpsters isn’t winning, it’s vengeance. John Nolte says that the “GOP’s needed an enema for a long time.” In this case, I actually agree with John’s apt comparison of his dashboard saint to an anal douche. But let’s go back to the claim that Trump will win in the general election by flipping blue states in a populist tsunami. If that analysis is even remotely plausible, why should #NeverTrumpers matter? Indeed, if you take Trumpian rhetoric from his talk-radio and other cheerleaders seriously, the anti-Trump forces are a negligible bunch of eggheads, pinheads, and finger-sniffing shut-ins completely disconnected from the authentic and volcanically powerful volksgemeinschaft. If Trump has any chance of flipping New York, Pennsylvania, and Michigan, we shouldn’t matter at all. And yet, according to the increasingly shrill and whining bleats from his supporters, we will be to blame if he doesn’t win. Well which is it? Is this a revolutionary populist movement that will sweep aside ink knights like me or not? I think several things are going on here. I think some pro-Trump forces actually realize that their guy will lose no matter what. Rather than face the fact that blame for Trump’s likely inevitable loss will rest entirely with Trump and his followers, they want to preserve the claim that Trump was “stabbed in the back.” Tactically, this isn’t dumb. The consolation prize for the Trump movement is to complete the hostile takeover of the GOP the way conservatives did after Goldwater’s loss in 1964. Psychologically, it also makes sense. No one ever wants to look squarely into the abyss of their own failure. But empirically, this argument is inane. If or when Trump loses it will be because of Trump’s own myriad and manifest shortcomings. Blaming us for honestly pointing out that those shortcomings are as short as the digits of Trump’s puppy-fur gloves may be cathartic, but it won’t be honest or accurate.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/434776/donald-trump-nevertrump-election-loss
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http://www.nationalreview.com/node/434776/print

 If the Donald Loses in November, It Won’t Be #NeverTrump That’s to Blame
By Jonah Goldberg — April 30, 2016

EDITOR’S NOTE: The following is Jonah Goldberg’s weekly “news”letter, the G-File. Subscribe here to get the G-File delivered to your inbox on Fridays.

Dear Reader (particularly those of you John Boehner considers stygian disciples of Lucifer),

Let’s start with some really good news. Sergeant First Class Charles Martland will not be discharged for beating the stuffing out of an Afghan commander who kept a boy chained up as a sex slave. Martland and Special Forces captain Dan Quinn smacked the guy around because, as it says in the Torah, “It is good to smack around degenerates who rape boys.”

I’m probably paraphrasing and maybe it’s not in there, but we can all agree that it should be.

A few months ago, I wrote about this case in a “Happy Warrior” magazine column about civilizational confidence. It called to mind one of my favorite stories about the British Empire, which I’ve written about several times. When General Charles Napier was running the show in British-controlled India, he was told by all the local muckety-mucks and diplomatic cookie pushers that he simply couldn’t ban the practice of hanging men who burned widows alive. It was an Indian tradition with a long history of existence, they explained. Napier replied:

    [j]Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.[/i]

continued
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Offline don-o

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Quote
If the Donald Loses in November, It Won’t Be #NeverTrump That’s to Blame

I truly do not understand this argument.  Why wouldn't the neverTrump people be held responsible for Hillary's victory, at least in part?

Aren't neverTrump people saying their self-righteous hatred of Donald Trump is more important to them than stopping another eight years of a Clinton presidency?    :shrug:

Offline sinkspur

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I truly do not understand this argument.  Why wouldn't the neverTrump people be held responsible for Hillary's victory, at least in part?

Aren't neverTrump people saying their self-righteous hatred of Donald Trump is more important to them than stopping another eight years of a Clinton presidency?    :shrug:

There is no hatred of Trump.  There is a recognition that he is not fit, not qualified for the presidency.  I am doing all I can to stop a Hillary presidency.

I am not voting for her.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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There is no hatred of Trump.  There is a recognition that he is not fit, not qualified for the presidency.  I am doing all I can to stop a Hillary presidency.

I am not voting for her.

That's not enough, Sink.  And I think you know that.

Do as your conscience dictates .... I'm not going to try and talk you (or anyone else) out of that.   But there would be more respect for the neverTrump people if they wouldn't run from the consequences of their decision. 

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I truly do not understand this argument.  Why wouldn't the neverTrump people be held responsible for Hillary's victory, at least in part?

Aren't neverTrump people saying their self-righteous hatred of Donald Trump is more important to them than stopping another eight years of a Clinton presidency?    :shrug:

That's such a leftist tactic, translating political opposition to hatred. In Obama's case it was racism.

Donald Trump is not fit to lead this country, be the face of the country to the world, or lead her armies.

I oppose Trump's Presidency for those reasons and others, none of which are based on hatred.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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That's not enough, Sink.  And I think you know that.

Do as your conscience dictates .... I'm not going to try and talk you (or anyone else) out of that.   But there would be more respect for the neverTrump people if they wouldn't run from the consequences of their decision.

You're running from the consequences of your decision.

From day one through today, the average of every poll out there has told us that Trump loses to either Clinton or Sanders. You've chosen to ignore that and support Trump any way.

If he loses, then the fault is on you and every Trump supporter for having chosen to support him in spite of what every consensus out there has been saying for months.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline sinkspur

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That's not enough, Sink.  And I think you know that.

Do as your conscience dictates .... I'm not going to try and talk you (or anyone else) out of that.   But there would be more respect for the neverTrump people if they wouldn't run from the consequences of their decision.

Respect?  You talk of "respect" and support a man who shows no respect for any of his opponents, any person who speaks ill of him and seeks vengeance against them?  Did you choke when you typed that word?

It's YOUR decision to foist the dishonorable Trump on the rest of the GOP.  60% of the party has not voted for him, don't want him, and a good many will stay home or not vote. 

That's YOUR fault, not theirs. 
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

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I think some pro-Trump forces actually realize that their guy will lose no matter what. Rather than face the fact that blame for Trump’s likely inevitable loss will rest entirely with Trump and his followers, they want to preserve the claim that Trump was “stabbed in the back.”

The infamous "stab in the back"

« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 03:22:27 pm by Bill Cipher »

Bill Cipher

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That's not enough, Sink.  And I think you know that.

Do as your conscience dictates .... I'm not going to try and talk you (or anyone else) out of that.   But there would be more respect for the neverTrump people if they wouldn't run from the consequences of their decision. 


What consequences are those?  Are you saying sinkspur is responsible for the votes of millions of people in the U.S., including all of the moderates and independents who are not going to vote for Trump?

I thought collective group guilt was a game the left played; apparently Trump's supporters play it too.

Offline bolobaby

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I truly do not understand this argument.  Why wouldn't the neverTrump people be held responsible for Hillary's victory, at least in part?

Aren't neverTrump people saying their self-righteous hatred of Donald Trump is more important to them than stopping another eight years of a Clinton presidency?    :shrug:

This is a specious argument. By this logic, we could all cross over to the Dem side, and vote Sanders in the primary, then in the general, and still have a good conscience because we "stopped Hillary?"

It matters who you back.

We've told you that you are backing someone who is not much better than Hillary, and that we won't get behind him. It was incumbent on the Trumpettes to pick another candidate when they realized we weren't lying about #NeverTrump.
How to lose credibility while posting:
1. Trump is never wrong.
2. Default to the most puerile emoticon you can find. This is especially useful when you can't win an argument on merits.
3. Be falsely ingratiating, completely but politely dismissive without talking to the points, and bring up Hillary whenever the conversation is really about conservatism.
4. When all else fails, remember rule #1 and #2. Emoticons are like the poor man's tweet!

Offline Jazzhead

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That's not enough, Sink.  And I think you know that.

Do as your conscience dictates .... I'm not going to try and talk you (or anyone else) out of that.   But there would be more respect for the neverTrump people if they wouldn't run from the consequences of their decision.

Who's running from the consequences of our decisions?   We all know what the consequences of Trump's nomination will be.   This will be a contest between two evils, and the Trumpsters are demanding that we, in the service of "solidarity" (to a demagogue who highjacked our party)  vote for someone we find unacceptably unqualified, divisive and dangerous.

Some of us will simply refuse to accept a choice between evils,  and abstain.   

Some of us will choose to try to defeat what we believe is the greater of those evils, even if that means taking action we never thought we do in our lives.   

Speaking for myself, my conscience is clear.   I've stood with Kasich,  recognizing that Hillary is the danger and the Kasich is the only one that objective evidence suggests can defeat her.    Now that the party is prepared to prostrate itself before Trump,  and the certain defeat he represents,  I feel no loyalty whatsoever to embrace Trump's apostasy.  For who?  For what?  For the friendship of Trumpsters?   

I understand the Trumpsters'  anger and frustration,   if not their thirst for lapping up Trump's easy answers.    I respect the Trumpsters' ability to acquire and use power.    But I will not give the Trumpsters what they crave most - validation.    Yes,  I think too many of them are good Germans, and should be ashamed of themselves for supporting chaos for its own sake,  and the loathsome vessel for their anger that is Donald Trump. 

 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 03:44:50 pm by Jazzhead »
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Bill Cipher

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I truly do not understand this argument.  Why wouldn't the neverTrump people be held responsible for Hillary's victory, at least in part?

Aren't neverTrump people saying their self-righteous hatred of Donald Trump is more important to them than stopping another eight years of a Clinton presidency?    :shrug:


That Trump supporters would stoop to the level of collective group guilt is simply more proof that Trump is a liberal.

Bill Cipher

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Who's running from the consequences of our decisions?   We all know what the consequences of Trump's nomination will be.   This will be a contest between two evils, and the Trumpsters are demanding that we, in the service of "solidarity" (to a demagogue who highjacked our party)  vote for someone we find unacceptably unqualified, divisive and dangerous.

Some of us will simply refuse to accept a choice between evils,  and abstain.   

Some of us will choose to defeat who we believe is the greater of those evils, by any means necessary.   

Speaking for myself, my conscience is clear.   I've stood with Kasich,  recognizing that Hillary is the danger and the Kasich is the only one that objective evidence suggests can defeat her.    Now that the party is prepared to prostrate itself before Trump,  and the certain defeat he represents,  I feel no loyalty whatsoever to embrace Trump's apostasy.  For who?  For what?  For the friendship of Trumpsters?   

I understand the Trumpsters'  anger and frustration,   if not their thirst for lapping up Trump's easy answers.    I respect the Trumpsters' ability to acquire and use power.    But I will not give the Trumpsters what they crave most - validation.    Yes,  I think too many of them are good Germans, and should be ashamed of themselves for supporting chaos for its own sake,  and the loathsome vessel for their anger that is Donald Trump. 

 


Exactly.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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That's such a leftist tactic, translating political opposition to hatred. In Obama's case it was racism.

Donald Trump is not fit to lead this country, be the face of the country to the world, or lead her armies.

I oppose Trump's Presidency for those reasons and others, none of which are based on hatred. 

Luis, I "get" how you feel about Donald Trump.  And I don't think "hate" is too strong a word.  And, that's fine.  If you hate him, you hate him.  I'm not going to try and talk you out of that.

But if on election day your choice is Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump and you withdraw because Trump is "not fit to lead this country" ... you are saying, by default, that Hillary Clinton is.   

If this is what your conscience is telling you, why not drop the defensiveness.   :shrug:

Offline Jazzhead

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Exactly.

In the end, BC, all we have is our good name.   
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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That Trump supporters would stoop to the level of collective group guilt is simply more proof that Trump is a liberal.

Ah, Bill .... I'm simply questioning the logic of an article written to dispel neverTrump responsibility in a Clinton victory.

I didn't raise this issue .... neverTrump people did. 

« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 03:36:31 pm by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline sinkspur

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Luis, I "get" how you feel about Donald Trump.  And I don't think "hate" is too strong a word.  And, that's fine.  If you hate him, you hate him.  I'm not going to try and talk you out of that.

But if on election day your choice is Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump and you withdraw because Trump is "not fit to lead this country" ... you are saying, by default, that Hillary Clinton is.   

If this is what your conscience is telling you, why not drop the defensiveness.   :shrug:

False.  If I'm presented a choice between sewer water and nuclear waste, and I refuse to drink the sewer water, that doesn't mean I'd rather have the nuclear waste.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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False.  If I'm presented a choice between sewer water and nuclear waste, and I refuse to drink the sewer water, that doesn't mean I'd rather have the nuclear waste.

True enough.  But that will not be your choice. 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 03:46:23 pm by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline sinkspur

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True enough.  But that will not be your choice.

Oh but it will be my choice. I refuse to drink sewer water or nuclear waste. 

Need a straw?
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Bill Cipher

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Ah, Bill .... I'm simply questioning the logic of an article written to dispel neverTrump responsibility in a Clinton victory.

I didn't raise this issue .... neverTrump people did. 



No, you are stating that people who do not vote for Trump will be responsible for Clinton's victory if Trump loses in November.  That is a false argument.  And it smacks of collective guilt.

The responsibility for Trump's failure will lie solely with Trump, and his supporters, and their inability to persuade or convince the rest of us to vote for him.

If you can persuade me I'm wrong, then I'll vote for Trump.  So far I haven't heard a damned thing to make me change my mind.  Just stupidities out of Trump's mouth and a studied blindness to Trump's "truthful hyperbole" in his supporters.

I have facts - evidence - on my side:  Trump has close personal, business, and political connections with democrats, including the Clintons (who are personal friends of his), before he decided to "become" a republican Trump espoused all manner of liberal policies, and getting local governments to use eminent domain to acquire property for him, for example, is an act that is antithetical to the concept of individual liberty and private property.

All you have are Trump's own words, words the truth of which is necessarily suspect because Trump has readily admitted, in his book, that he lies in negotiations in order to get what he wants, although he doesn't quite have the guts to call it what it is and instead calls it "truthful hyperbole."  You can have the truth, or you have hyperbole, but you cannot have both.  Since Trump's words are by his own admission suspect, the only way to take any comfort in them is to have evidence - hard facts - that tend to support them; such facts do not exist.

Why should I vote for a liar?  Why should I vote for a liberal?  Donald Trump is a liar, a charge he happily admits to in his own book.  Donald Trump is a liberal, a charge his own past accuses him of.

I won't.  I won't vote for Hillary because she's a lying liberal.  I won't vote for Trump because he is also a lying liberal.


Bill Cipher

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True enough.  But that will not be your choice. 

Are you now saying that Cruz, or some other dark horse, will be the GOP nominee?

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Oh but it will be my choice. I refuse to drink sewer water or nuclear waste. 

Need a straw?

Ah, Sink .... newsflash:  if this is how you see the election choices, come January 20 you will be drinking one or the other - - - so you might want to be saving that straw.    ^-^

Bill Cipher

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Ah, Sink .... newsflash:  if this is how you see the election choices, come January 20 you will be drinking one or the other - - - so you might want to be saving that straw.    ^-^

False.  Those who vote for Clinton get to drink the sewer water.  Those who vote for Trump get to drink the nuclear waste.

The rest of us will be the ones unwillingly forced to pay for the consequences of the people who nominated those two.