The Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Spy, and Superhero Genre

[LateForLunch]

I was really impressed with the "Saints and Strangers" miniseries on the National Geographic channel about a year back. I fully expected the typical liberal attack showing the pilgrims as brutal thugs murdering innocent natives but it wasn't at all like that.

Instead it showed the near starving Pilgrims raiding an  indian cache which naturally led to tensions. People on both sides tried to defuse the situation just as people on both sides simply wanted to kill the others. Once the colony got through that first brutal winter (with the help of the natives) a lively cultural exchange took place. Some pilgrims went to live with and learn from the indians and many indian children were sent to live with and learn with the colonists. It was beneficial and all involved knew it.

http://www.saintsandstrangers.com/

That sounds more realistic than the usual leftist narrative about evil Caucasians. There is also some evidence that the mysterious disappearance of the Roanoke Colony (where the cryptic word "Croatoan" was the only remainder) was really a case of absorption of survivors of either a native attack by renegades (or other natives) on the colony or decimation by disease / starvation. To survive they had to join the tribe because their community ceased to exist and they couldn't wait for help from over seas. After that they either died out or their identities became entirely subsumed by the tribe so if they had children, they may never have known "who" their parents were.   

[Smokin Joe]

That sounds more realistic than the usual leftist narrative about evil Caucasians. There is also some evidence that the mysterious disappearance of the Roanoke Colony (where the cryptic word "Croatoan" was the only remainder) was really a case of absorption of survivors of either a native attack by renegades (or other natives) on the colony or decimation by disease / starvation. To survive they had to join the tribe because their community ceased to exist and they couldn't wait for help from over seas. After that they either died out or their identities became entirely subsumed by the tribe so if they had children, they may never have known "who" their parents were.

That would be an interesting DNA trace, if possible, if markers from the colonists showed up in descendants of the tribe, provided any remain.

[Joe Wooten]

Galileo, van Leeuwenhoek, Newton, Copernicus, Bacon, and Kepler were Christians.

Isaac Newton was quite a pious Christian too.

[sneakypete]

Not so, Pete.  Many of them went beyond merely nominal Christianity and were men of deep faith.

@Sanguine

That's true. Just because something is required doesn't mean there aren't multitudes of people glad to sign on voluntarily. I have no problem at all with that,even if I do like to poke them with a stick occasionally. What I do have trouble with is being FORCED by law or even society to sign up for something you are opposed to for whatever reason. If it's all that great,people shouldn't have to be forced to be followers.

[sneakypete]

That would be an interesting DNA trace, if possible, if markers from the colonists showed up in descendants of the tribe, provided any remain.

@LateForLunch @Smokin Joe

The alleged tribe that call themselves the Lumbee Indians in central NC try to claim refugees from the Roanoke Island settlers settled and mixed with them,but I'm still waiting to hear them splain how the settlers got there on foot 400 years ago without being killed by wild animals or other Indian tribes (remember,more than half of them were women and children),or where the "black" came from in their genetic makup. The Roanoke Island people were snowflakes from England.

The truth is the "Lumbees" are the offspring of escaped slaves who want the no taxes and all the free stuff from the government that comes with being recognized as a Native American peoples. One big thing they wanted back when they really started pushing this stuff was the "no draft" status. The VN war and the draft were hot back then.

[bigheadfred]

Be your own apocalypse. Right, @sneakypete?

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

That's true. Just because something is required doesn't mean there aren't multitudes of people glad to sign on voluntarily. I have no problem at all with that,even if I do like to poke them with a stick occasionally. What I do have trouble with is being FORCED by law or even society to sign up for something you are opposed to for whatever reason. If it's all that great,people shouldn't have to be forced to be followers.

Yes, but at least the scientists I named were great scientists and voluntary Christians.

[sneakypete]

That would be an interesting DNA trace, if possible, if markers from the colonists showed up in descendants of the tribe, provided any remain.

@Smokin Joe @LateForLunch

I read an article a year or two ago that archeologists were working an area that used to be a part of a plantation slightly inland from Roanoke Island,and given what they were digging up and the carbon dating they were getting,they are pretty sure the refugees from Roanoke Island moved there and settled,and eventually "disappeared" into the bloodlines of the native tribes.
Kinda makes sense because that plantation had a large shoreline that gave access to the ocean and the Chesapeake Bay,and if the colonists survived long enough to leave Roanoke Island,you can bet they left in little flat-bottomed sail boats. First of all,they would have to have boats to even leave the island,and secondly,traveling by boat was a hell of a lot quicker and safer than trying to travel on foot. LOTS of swamps and bogs in that area,and traveling by foot when you didn't know the terrain would have been a nightmare. I suspect there are still places in those swamps nobody has ever been known to visit. Most people are too smart to try. There has even been reports over the years of crocodiles and panthers being in those swamps,never mind every kind of poisonous snake in North America in abundance. Especially cottonmouth moccasins,who are VERY aggressive. They will climb right in the boat with you if you're not careful.

Wish I remembered who published that article and what county the old plantation was located,but I can't.

Update: I'm betting anyone interested can find that article and more on the Lost Colony by going to the archives of the NC State Government. Or maybe even by doing a search using Roanoke Island on PBS.

[Sanguine]

@Smokin Joe @LateForLunch

I read an article a year or two ago that archeologists were working an area that used to be a part of a plantation slightly inland from Roanoke Island,and given what they were digging up and the carbon dating they were getting,they are pretty sure the refugees from Roanoke Island moved there and settled,and eventually "disappeared" into the bloodlines of the native tribes.
Kinda makes sense because that plantation had a large shoreline that gave access to the ocean and the Chesapeake Bay,and if the colonists survived long enough to leave Roanoke Island,you can bet they left in little flat-bottomed sail boats. First of all,they would have to have boats to even leave the island,and secondly,traveling by boat was a hell of a lot quicker and safer than trying to travel on foot. LOTS of swamps and bogs in that area,and traveling by foot when you didn't know the terrain would have been a nightmare. I suspect there are still places in those swamps nobody has ever been known to visit. Most people are too smart to try. There has even been reports over the years of crocodiles and panthers being in those swamps,never mind every kind of poisonous snake in North America in abundance. Especially cottonmouth moccasins,who are VERY aggressive. They will climb right in the boat with you if you're not careful.

Wish I remembered who published that article and what county the old plantation was located,but I can't.

Update: I'm betting anyone interested can find that article and more on the Lost Colony by going to the archives of the NC State Government. Or maybe even by doing a search using Roanoke Island on PBS.

There are also some recent documentaries on YouTube.

[sneakypete]

Yes, but at least the scientists I named were great scientists and voluntary Christians.

@Sanguine

"voluntary Christians" is just speculation on your part. Some may have been,and others played the game to avoid being burned alive at the stake,and/or to keep the money and social positions they had. Right up to the 1800's people were still being taught in schools to begin letters with the day,month,and "the year of our Lord".
You either did that or the best you could hope for was to be shunned by all your neighbors and even relatives,which meant you were shut off from normal commerce and opportunities.

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

"voluntary Christians" is just speculation on your part. Some may have been,and others played the game to avoid being burned alive at the stake,and/or to keep the money and social positions they had. Right up to the 1800's people were still being taught in schools to begin letters with the day,month,and "the year of our Lord".
You either did that or the best you could hope for was to be shunned by all your neighbors and even relatives,which meant you were shut off from normal commerce and opportunities.

No, these were men of professed faith, which they didn't have to do.  All they had to do is go to church fairly regularly and don't discuss religion.  They went well beyond that.

[bigheadfred]

Just finished up the Journeys of the Catechist trilogy by Alan Dean Foster. I liked it, but had the feeling I was reading something by Piers Anthony.

[bigheadfred]

Voluntary Christian.

The Catholic Church, which was very powerful and influential in Galileo's day, strongly supported the theory of a geocentric, or Earth-centered, universe. After Galileo began publishing papers about his astronomy discoveries and his belief in a heliocentric, or Sun-centered, Universe, he was called to Rome to answer charges brought against him by the Inquisition (the legal body of the Catholic Church). Early in 1616, Galileo was accused of being a heretic, a person who opposed Church teachings. Heresy was a crime for which people were sometimes sentenced to death. Galileo was cleared of charges of heresy, but was told that he should no longer publicly state his belief that Earth moved around the Sun. Galileo continued his study of astronomy and became more and more convinced that all planets revolved around the Sun. In 1632, he published a book that stated, among other things, that the heliocentric theory of Copernicus was correct. Galileo was once again called before the Inquisition and this time was found guilty of heresy. Galileo was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1633. Because of his age and poor health, he was allowed to serve his imprisonment under house arrest. Galileo died on January 8, 1642.

[Smokin Joe]

@LateForLunch @Smokin Joe

The alleged tribe that call themselves the Lumbee Indians in central NC try to claim refugees from the Roanoke Island settlers settled and mixed with them,but I'm still waiting to hear them splain how the settlers got there on foot 400 years ago without being killed by wild animals or other Indian tribes (remember,more than half of them were women and children),or where the "black" came from in their genetic makup. The Roanoke Island people were snowflakes from England.

The truth is the "Lumbees" are the offspring of escaped slaves who want the no taxes and all the free stuff from the government that comes with being recognized as a Native American peoples. One big thing they wanted back when they really started pushing this stuff was the "no draft" status. The VN war and the draft were hot back then.

Well, the presence or absence of those genetic markers might indicate whether or not those claims were true. People from England in the late 1500s were a very different breed of 'snowflake" from the modern variety. They were used to skinning their own game by the time they'd been in the colony very long (wimmen's work!), and cooking over a fire, even from England. Any time surviving in the colonies and they had picked up some skills, unlike the more gentrified twits in Jamestown who had to be tuned up a mite on their newfound status as laborers. Keep in mind that while some English had servants, they did not have slaves, and servants counted among the colonists, too. It would not be like running off into the bush with a bunch of college kids today or video game mavens.
Other tribes may have absorbed those colonists as captives eventually and eventually accepted them, or they may have been taken and simply killed later if they did not make the grade. Tribal admission wasn't granted lightly, but could be gained by proving their worth. Any travel out of the area done surreptitiously would best be done by water, and would require skills. Survivors who did as they were told might make a significant journey under such circumstances, but it's always a crapshoot in someone else's back yard. Still settlers made it across thousands of miles of plains later on, and they were no less tinhorns.
Either way, it is possible the genetics could settle many of the assertions or arguments, or refute them, and there is always a chance the results would be inconclusive. For those with nothing to gain, but an appropriated heritage to lose, there might be little incentive to participate.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe @LateForLunch

I read an article a year or two ago that archeologists were working an area that used to be a part of a plantation slightly inland from Roanoke Island,and given what they were digging up and the carbon dating they were getting,they are pretty sure the refugees from Roanoke Island moved there and settled,and eventually "disappeared" into the bloodlines of the native tribes.
Kinda makes sense because that plantation had a large shoreline that gave access to the ocean and the Chesapeake Bay,and if the colonists survived long enough to leave Roanoke Island,you can bet they left in little flat-bottomed sail boats. First of all,they would have to have boats to even leave the island,and secondly,traveling by boat was a hell of a lot quicker and safer than trying to travel on foot. LOTS of swamps and bogs in that area,and traveling by foot when you didn't know the terrain would have been a nightmare. I suspect there are still places in those swamps nobody has ever been known to visit. Most people are too smart to try. There has even been reports over the years of crocodiles and panthers being in those swamps,never mind every kind of poisonous snake in North America in abundance. Especially cottonmouth moccasins,who are VERY aggressive. They will climb right in the boat with you if you're not careful.

Wish I remembered who published that article and what county the old plantation was located,but I can't.

Update: I'm betting anyone interested can find that article and more on the Lost Colony by going to the archives of the NC State Government. Or maybe even by doing a search using Roanoke Island on PBS.

I'm familiar with that type of terrain, the tidewater area I grew up in has the last vestiges of the Great Dismal Swamp at its headwaters (Zekiah Swamp), and tidal marshes can be very tricky travel. A flat bottomed skiff with either a centerboard or sideboards can be sailed in the open water; row, scull, or pole it in the shallows. Those areas are teeming with food, if you know what to look for. Centuries later, we just used jon boats, rowed in the shallows, and used an outboard in open water. If you were alone, you sat in the middle and steered with a pipe to get the boat planing and could get 15-20 knots out of a 5 hp motor that way. Sailing a skiff is a lot slower, especially if you have to tack against the wind.

First snake I ever killed, I was just a wee sprout cutting weeds done the shore with a swingknife, and it came after me from the water. I killed it because it kept coming after me. It was indeed a moccasin, and had come over from Virginia on the tide. We did not have any of those, so I was surprised by the way it acted, but even more so by my Dad's reaction to my having killed it. The first thing he asked was if it had bitten me, and I told him no, and that I would have left it be but it kept coming after me. A couple years later I found out just what that she-snake with a belly full of young-uns might have meant for the area.
It was years later before I had the need to kill another.
It is a tricky environment for those who do not know its ways, and there are places you can step into and disappear. Only carrying my shotgun at port arms saved me from one of those while hunting--the barrel and stock caught on opposite sides of the hole, but I never touched bottom. I used the gun to pull myself out. It looked the same as the rest of the marsh grass. After that, I pretty much kept to game trails.

I'll see what I can track down and turn you on to whatever links I find.

[sneakypete]

@Smokin Joe

Any travel out of the area done surreptitiously would best be done by water, and would require skills. Survivors who did as they were told might make a significant journey under such circumstances, but it's always a crapshoot in someone else's back yard. Still settlers made it across thousands of miles of plains later on, and they were no less tinhorns.
 

Joe,look at a map of coastal NC and Va,paying close attention to the massive swamp areas. Crossing the plains was child's play compared to crossing swampland. There are swampy areas around there that still haven't been explored. There are roads and bridges now,but back then you went by boat or you didn't go.

[Smokin Joe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roanoke_Colony
@sneakypete
Here are a few:

https://roanokeisland.net/history/

http://observer.com/2017/04/gold-ring-revives-lost-colony-roanoke-mystery/

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/roanoke-colony-deserted (thin gruel)

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/mystery-roanoke-endures-yet-another-cruel-twist-180962837/ Interesting

http://www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/mysterious-lost-colony-roanoke-island-020289  (looks good) Lumbee in Robeson County. multiple links to more:

 

anilbalan.com, 2011. The Croatoan Mystery. [Online]
Available at: http://anilbalan.com/2011/10/17/the-croatoan-mystery/

chickamaugacherokee.org, 2015. The Croatan Indians. [Online]
Available at: http://chickamaugacherokee.org/croatan/

Childs, T. M., 2013. The Dare Stones. [Online]
Available at: http://ncpedia.org/dare-stones

Evans, P. W., 2006. Croatoan Indians. [Online]
Available at: http://ncpedia.org/croatoan-indians

roanokeisland.net, 2015. Roanoke Island History. [Online]
Available at: http://roanokeisland.net/history

Stilling, G. E. S., 2015. Lumbee Indians. [Online]
Available at: http://ncpedia.org/lumbee/origins

The Lost Colony Center for Science and Research, 2007. Lost Colony DNA Project. [Online]
Available at: http://www.lost-colony.com/DNAproj.html

http://theshadowlands.net/roanoke.htm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/12/131208-roanoke-lost-colony-discovery-history-raleigh/

http://www.firstcolonyfoundation.org/

https://www.nps.gov/fora/learn/news/first-colony-foundation-archaeologists-and-nps-conclude-successful-dig.htm

Everything we wanted to know they still haven't figured out!

[Smokin Joe]

Joe,look at a map of coastal NC and Va,paying close attention to the massive swamp areas. Crossing the plains was child's play compared to crossing swampland. There are swampy areas around there that still haven't been explored. There are roads and bridges now,but back then you went by boat or you didn't go.

When we were kids (in the Southern MD tidewater), we either walked, rode our bikes on known roads and trails, or took the boat. The boat was the most direct, weather permitting, and allowed us access to places you just could not go otherwise. I hunted in marshes, hunted ducks, killed my first three deer on a marsh (where they were more yellow than the reddish brown of the ones back in the woods--they blended in better with the marsh grasses that way.) Yes, they can be treacherous for people who didn't grow up there, and would be for anyone in places even today.  I believe there are places in there where no one living has been, and some where maybe no one has tread since the water came up (after the ice age). At one time, the flat parts of the coastal plains were uplands, the tidewater estuaries were river valleys,  and the beach was far to the east out on the continental shelf.

The plains seem easy (mainly because the roads go through the flattest parts), and in some places they are, but out this way shortgrass prairie can drop off a couple hundred feet in a step or two in the badlands and breaks--at least in daylight, you can see that coming.

[kevindavis007]

Finally finished the first season of Babylon 5.


It was meh as I remembered, but there was a few good episodes.  Now ready for Season 2.

[kevindavis007]

#BladeRunner2049 trailer..



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCcx85zbxz4

[uglybiker]

 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbsnObtCPkg

[kevindavis007]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5Usu5kD6gI

[kevindavis007]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy9sKeCE8V0

[Ghost Bear]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5Usu5kD6gI

Yeah, that was fairly mind-blowing at the time...   

[geronl]

Am I the only one who thinks DR WHO seems to be on a mission to turn off it's audience??