Author Topic: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong  (Read 3651 times)

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Offline Machiavelli

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Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« on: April 16, 2016, 02:23:29 am »
Charles Leerhsen
Imprimis -- Hillsdale College
March 2016

Quote
Ty Cobb was one of the greatest baseball players of all time and king of the so-called Deadball Era. He played in the major leagues--mostly for the Detroit Tigers but a bit for the Philadelphia Athletics--from 1905 to 1928, and was the first player ever voted into the Hall of Fame. His lifetime batting average of .366 is amazing, and has never been equaled. But for all that, most Americans think of him first as an awful person--a racist and a low-down cheat who thought nothing of injuring his fellow players just to gain another base or score a run. Indeed, many think of him as a murderer. Ron Shelton, the director of the 1995 movie Cobb, starring Tommy Lee Jones in the title role, told me it was "well known" that Cobb had killed "as many as" three people.

It is easy to understand why this is the prevailing view. People have been told that Cobb was a bad man over and over, all of their lives. The repetition felt like evidence. It started soon after Cobb's death in 1961, with the publication of an article by a man named Al Stump, one of several articles and books he would write about Cobb. Among other things, Stump claimed that when children wrote to Cobb asking for an autographed picture, he steamed the stamps off the return envelopes and never wrote back. In another book--this one about Cobb's contemporary Tris Speaker--baseball historian Timothy Gay wrote (implausibly, if you think about it) that Cobb would pistol-whip any black person he saw on the sidewalk. And then there were the stories about how Cobb sharpened his spikes: before every game, numerous sources claim, he would hone his cleats with a file. In the 1989 film Field of Dreams, Shoeless Joe Jackson says that Cobb wasn't invited to the ghostly cornfield reunion of old-time ballplayers because "No one liked that son of a bitch." The line always gets a knowing laugh.
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2016, 06:29:09 am »
That article has just convinced me to read the author's book.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2016, 02:20:56 pm »
I found it interesting Ken Burns failed to adequately research Cobb before he maligned Cobb in his schlockumentary. :tongue2:

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2016, 06:03:10 pm »
I found it interesting Ken Burns failed to adequately research Cobb before he maligned Cobb in his schlockumentary. :tongue2:

I suspect it's much like Mr. Leerhsen said: the formerly prevailing view had become so entrenched by the
time Ken Burns put his documentary together. Just as had been, once upon a time, the Abner Doubleday
myth.

Hell, there are still people who think Curt Flood created free agency. (He didn't. He kicked one big door
ajar by standing up for players, but he lost in the Supreme Court. It took Andy Messersmith to blow open
the door Curt Flood kicked ajar.)

There are still people who think free agency "ruined" baseball. (It didn't. You can look it up. Baseball---the
team sport without the salary cap---has had more different World Series winners in the free agency
era than the NFL has had Super Bowl winners, the NHL has had Stanley Cup champions, or the NBA has
had Naismith Trophy winners, and baseball has also had more different World Series winners in the free
agency era than it had in the reserve era.)

Or, that the Yankees buy championships. (They don't. You can look this up too: in all the seasons of the
free agency era for which the Yankees spent like drunken navies, they didn't win; in all those seasons in
which they did win, they didn't spend half as much on player payroll. Hate them to your heart's content---
perhaps the best reason is because both they and their fans think they're entitled, mind you, to
win World Series---but don't do it over a myth.)

Or, that Walter O'Malley had nothing more than riches in mind when he moved the Dodgers west. (He
wasn't exactly ignorant of the prospects, but the real reason O'Malley left Brooklyn had to do with
New York building/planning fuehrer Robert Moses, who thwarted O'Malley's effort to build what
would have been the world's first retractable-roof stadium in Brooklyn when the Dodgers could no
longer expand Ebbets Field or its parking in the wake of Brooklyn's exponential postwar growth. Moses
also said, and you can look that up too, that nobody would ever again build a privately-owned sports
facility in New York, city or state---which is just what the new Dodger ballpark would have been---so
long as he had anything to say about New York building or planning. You can get the full story
in two books, Neil Sullivan's The Dodgers Move West, and Michael Shapiro's The Last Good
Season: Brooklyn, the Dodgers, and Their Final Pennant Race Together
. Including the affirmation
that Moses hoped to jam down O'Malley's throat a planned multipurpose stadium in Queens---which
eventually became Shea Stadium when opened in 1964.)

Or, that the 1919 Cincinnati Reds couldn't have beaten the 1919 White Sox in the World Series if
the Series had been played straight. (Yes, you can look that up, too: the White Sox were potent
enough but the 1919 Reds were a very formidable team in their own right. There is simply no
statistical evidence to suggest that, entering the 1919 Series, the Reds couldn't have held their
own and prevailed at least as strongly as the White Sox could.)

Or, that Herb Score's pitching career was finished when Gil McDougald hit the line drive off his face
in 1957. (It wasn't. Score did sit out the rest of the 1957 and returned in 1958. But he blew his
elbow out pitching in bad weather against Washington and missed another season. When he returned
in 1959, Score shifted his pitching motion hoping to avoid another elbow injury---and it messed him
up completely enough that that, not the liner in the face two years earlier, was why he'd never
be the same pitcher again that he was in 1955-56, when he was, essentially, Sandy Koufax before
Koufax became Koufax. Score lingered a few more years with the Indians and the White Sox, up
and down from the minors, until he gave it up for good in 1964 and was invited to join the Indians'
broadcast team---where he stayed for most of the rest of his life, until health problems forced his
retirement. He died in 2008.)

Or, thanks to A League of Their Own, that the Racine Belles beat the Rockford Peaches to win
the first All-American Girls Professional Baseball League championship. (Yep, you can look that
up---the Peaches finished dead last in the league in 1943, while the Belles, led by 33-game winner
Joanne Winter, beat the Kenosha Comets three straight in a best-of-five championship set. The
Peaches did eventually win a few titles [four, including three straight in 1948-50] and were one of the
only two teams---the South Bend Blue Sox was the other---to stay the distance for the entire twelve-
year life of the AAGPBL.)

Just to name a few. ;)

By the way, Rockford, Illinois has never forgotten the Peaches. The old ticket booth rig from their
old park still stands:

« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 07:06:44 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2016, 07:14:20 pm »
The sports world is littered with myths  and misconceptions. That helps to keep it interesting. King Felix isn't pitching well today, uncharacteristically  wild, but has held the hated Yankees to one run through 5 innings. He just tied Randy Johnson's Mariners strikeout record.

Offline flowers

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2016, 07:49:33 pm »
The sports world is littered with myths  and misconceptions. That helps to keep it interesting. King Felix isn't pitching well today, uncharacteristically  wild, but has held the hated Yankees to one run through 5 innings. He just tied Randy Johnson's Mariners strikeout record.
Wow....I used to love to watch Johnson pitch.


A-Lert

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2016, 08:04:44 pm »
Wow....I used to love to watch Johnson pitch.

I did too. It looked like the ball was released halfway to home plate. I don't imagine too many hitters looked forward to facing the "Big Unit".

Remember when he killed the bird with a pitch?

Offline flowers

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2016, 08:31:58 pm »
I did too. It looked like the ball was released halfway to home plate. I don't imagine too many hitters looked forward to facing the "Big Unit".

Remember when he killed the bird with a pitch?
Oh yeah I do. I also remember when he won the World Series with the Diamondbacks. He went on the late show and sat down next to the desk. A young girl was sitting next to him. She asked who he was and he turned to her and said maybe you would remember me if I did this? He then put his baseball glove over half his face like when he pitches.


Offline EasyAce

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2016, 09:22:36 pm »
The sports world is littered with myths  and misconceptions. That helps to keep it interesting.

The problem is, with baseball the truth is usually more interesting. True of other sports as well.

You can get a good taste of that if you seek out Allen Barra's That's Not the Way It Was: (Almost) Everything
They Told You About Sports is Wrong
, in which he debunks well and good, among other things:

* Whether baseball was "just a game" before the free agency era. (It wasn't.)

* There was more "loyalty" before free agency than after. (False.)

* Only a salary cap could have allowed small market teams to compete with big market teams. (Abject bullsh@t---and
the late Doug Pappas debunked that one even deeper in his writings prior to his unexpected death in 2004. Here's
a thumbnail summary: the small market teams were richer than people thought, but their owners weren't spending
their dollars on player development or free agency signings.)

* A lawsuit brought players free agency. (Nope. I noted it above: Curt Flood lost at the Supreme Court.)

* Arnold Rothstein fixed the 1919 World Series. (False. The Big Bankroll only got in on the action after the fix
was planned.)

* The Black Sox scandal drove Ring Lardner away from baseball. (Not true---what Lardner didn't like was the
live ball introduced for 1920; he dismissed it as "Br'er Rabbit Ball.")

* "Say it ain't so, Joe." (Never happened. It was contrived from something Hugh Fullerton overheard outside
the courthouse where the Eight Men Out were tried.)

Barra zapped a few other myths in a few other sports, some of which you may know, such as:

* Bob Cousy being basketball's first behind-the-back dribbler. (He was the first in the NBA, but not the
first pro player to use the technique.)

* Bill Russell dominated Wilt Chamberlain. (Russell's teams won more championships but Chamberlain
statistically was the better player.)

* Julius Erving was the reason for the ABA-NBA merger. (Not quite.)

* The "long count" that cost Jack Dempsey against Gene Tunney. (Not quite.)

* Rocky Marciano was the only undefeated world heavyweight champion. (False.)

* The Phantom Punch in 1965. (False again, but the real story is just as fascinating---and disturbing,
and it has nothing to do with whether Sonny Liston threw the rematch with Muhammad Ali [he didn't].)

* Super Bowl III was a huge upset. (It wasn't. Hint: Joe Namath knew exactly what he was talking
about when he predicted a Jet win.)

* Johnny Unitas was Bart Starr's superior. (Not even close.)

* Vince Lombardi's most infamous quote. (He didn't exactly say winning was "the only thing.")

And when it comes to baseball, few debunk better than Barra in his books Clearing the Bases and
Brushbacks and Knockdowns, in which you would learn:

* Babe Ruth wasn't the greatest five-tool player of all time. (Hell, he barely had three tools. Barely.)

* Ruth wasn't the greatest team player of all time. (Hint: Ninety percent of the game is mental and the
other half is physical. And even Ty Cobb didn't have half the reputation for selfish play that Ruth had.)

* Bob Gibson was better than Juan Marichal. (False. Match up their best seasons and you'd see
Marichal outpitched Gibson. Not to mention that Marichal would have won the Cy Young Awards
Sandy Koufax won if Koufax wasn't in the league in those seasons.)

* Don Shula was the coach you wanted for the biggest NFL games. (No way, Jose.)

* Jackie Robinson wouldn't have been a Hall of Famer if he was white. (False. Remove his race, look
at his numbers top and deep, and Robinson would most certainly have been a Hall of Famer. Not to
mention that Minnie Minoso should have been one.)

* Roger Maris belongs in the Hall of Fame. (Sadly, false. Maris was kept from making a bona-fide Hall
case by injuries, including a drastic one the depth of which the Yankees kept from him because, by
1965, the team was fading, the farm was parched, and the team needed as many of its marquee
names on the field drawing fans as possible, but a wrist injury Maris suffered that year sapped
what was left of the power prior injuries had begun draining.)

* Compare Ted Williams to Joe DiMaggio---who was the better player? (Player, not hitter.)

* Compare Tim Raines to Pete Rose---who was the better player? (They were similar players: early-in-
the-order hitters who had a little power and reputedly used everything short of extortion to reach
base. Now, line up their fifteen best seasons against each other and dare yourself to believe who reached
base more often using up less outs to do it.)

Believe me, my friend, there's almost more fun in turning sacred cows into steak than in worshipping
the sacred cows. And it never kills the fun of baseball.
while creating more runs. )


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

A-Lert

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2016, 09:34:26 pm »
Henry Aaron is still the home run king, IMO.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/IP_career.shtml

We'll never see anyone break Cy Young's record. We may never see a pitcher throw 5,000 innings in a career again.

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Offline Machiavelli

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2016, 10:38:33 pm »
* The "long count" that cost Jack Dempsey against Gene Tunney. (Not quite.)

I've always speculated that Tunney would have defeated Dempsey even without the "long count."

Quote
* Rocky Marciano was the only undefeated world heavyweight champion. (False.)

I do know that Jim Jeffries, like Marciano, retired undefeated. Unlike Marciano, Jeffries came out of retirement and was then defeated (by Jack Johnson). Beyond that, I don't know.

Quote
* The Phantom Punch in 1965. (False again, but the real story is just as fascinating---and disturbing, and it has nothing to do with whether Sonny Liston threw the rematch with Muhammad Ali [he didn't].)

I've seen the punch in slow motion. It was definitely a hit, maybe hard enough to knock Liston down, but hard enough to KO him? I don't know.

Quote
* Babe Ruth wasn't the greatest five-tool player of all time. (Hell, he barely had three tools. Barely.)

As I understand it, the five tools are (1) hitting for average, (2) hitting for power, (3) base running skills, (4) fielding, and (5) throwing. I'm guessing that the author picked (1) and (2) definitely and (5) barely for Ruth. My pick for the greatest non-pitcher / five tool player of all time is Willie Mays.

Quote
* Ruth wasn't the greatest team player of all time. (Hint: Ninety percent of the game is mental and the other half is physical. And even Ty Cobb didn't have half the reputation for selfish play that Ruth had.)

I don't know enough about this to comment.

Quote
* Bob Gibson was better than Juan Marichal. (False. Match up their best seasons and you'd see Marichal outpitched Gibson. Not to mention that Marichal would have won the Cy Young Awards Sandy Koufax won if Koufax wasn't in the league in those seasons.)

In 1968, Bob Gibson had the greatest single season of any MLB pitcher in history, but Marichal career-wise was overall the better pitcher, no doubt about it. And I'm a Dodger fan!

Quote
* Jackie Robinson wouldn't have been a Hall of Famer if he was white. (False. Remove his race, look at his numbers top and deep, and Robinson would most certainly have been a Hall of Famer. Not to mention that Minnie Minoso should have been one.)

Robinson definitely deserved to be in the HOF regardless of his race. Whether he would have actually gotten there if he was white, I don't know.

Quote
* Compare Ted Williams to Joe DiMaggio---who was the better player? (Player, not hitter.)

Williams was the greatest pure hitter of them all. DiMaggio was probably the better all-around player. However, I would have still picked Williams for my team.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 10:39:15 pm by Machiavelli »

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2016, 11:17:58 pm »
http://www.fueledbysports.com/ted-williams-vs-joe-dimaggio-comparison/

I would still take Williams.

Quote
[If] I had to choose between Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio in their primes for ten
seasons, I'd pick Ted Williams. I would? I would not. This book is largely about numbers
and how to interpret them, and how to evaluate players on the basis of them. One of the
important things to know is just how far stats can take you. Joe DiMaggio played for
thirteen seasons, in which time his team won ten pennants and nine World Series. This
is one of the most remarkable success records in sports, and DiMaggio was by far the
biggest reason his team was able to accomplish what it did. Is there room for intangibles
in a book such as this? Is there room for intangibles in the discussion of statistics? I
don't know, but I do know that in every book I've read about DiMaggio I saw Yankees
quoted as saying things like, "With Dage [the Dago, Joe's Yankee nickname] we always
felt like we were gonna win." And with Dage they always did.

Maybe it was all in their heads, but were the results any less real for that? As Kevin
Costner says in
Bull Durham, if they think that's the reason they're winning, then
that's the reason they
are winning. I know what all the statistics . . . told you
about Williams's greater objective value, but even so, is it reasonable to argue that,
if the Yankees had had Ted Williams instead of Joe DiMaggio, they'd have won
ten
World Series?
The Yankees didn't win ten World Series with Babe Ruth. In fact,
the Babe Ruth Yankees won only
four World Series. Yes, it's true that Ted
Williams never had the opportunity to win as many pennants and World Series as Joe
DiMaggio; his teams just weren't that good. But if you could go back in time and
make that trade [Williams for DiMaggio, as was once speculated in the early 1940s),
would you? And why
would you? Joe DiMaggio's Yankees won ten pennants in
thirteen years; is there any reason to assume that Ted Williams or anyone else was
so chock full of intangibles that he'd have helped those same Yankees to win
eleven pennants in thirteen years?

Some men inspire awe, while others inspire confidence. Ted Williams, it seems to
me, inspired more of the former than the latter, while DiMaggio inspired both but
mostly confidence. He clearly made his teammates better players, which amounts
to the same thing.
[/url]

---Allen Barra, from Clearing the Bases

I've read a lot about both men. Nowhere did I find any Red Sox teammate of
Ted Williams say that when he was in the lineup they always felt like they were
going to win.


About a decade after the original Williams-for-DiMaggio trade speculation something
similar happened to Yogi Berra: rumours that the Yankees might swap him to the
Cardinals for Stan Musial. They proved to be nothing more than rumours, and
as great a player as Stan Musial was, I wouldn't have traded Yogi Berra even for Musial.
Berra (and Barra makes the case in Brushbacks and Knockdowns) was
not just the single greatest catcher ever to play major league baseball (Johnny
Bench is his oh-so-close second), but he may have been the greatest team player
in any team sport. Ever.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 12:16:35 am by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2016, 11:35:18 pm »
I've always speculated that Tunney would have defeated Dempsey even without the "long count."

Many have but it isn't so. Dempsey was waiting to finish him off at that moment.

I do know that Jim Jeffries, like Marciano, retired undefeated. Unlike Marciano, Jeffries came out of retirement and was then defeated (by Jack Johnson). Beyond that, I don't know.

Gene Tunney never lost a bout after he took the heavyweight title and retired undefeated as a heavyweight.
(He'd had a loss or two as a light heavyweight earlier in his career.)

I've seen the [phantom] punch in slow motion. It was definitely a hit, maybe hard enough to knock Liston down, but hard enough to KO him? I don't know.

It was the punch that preceded that "phantom punch" immediately---which the cameras never captured but ringside
witnesses including Ali's waiting next opponent Floyd Patterson saw---that shattered Liston. That's why the punch
you saw could knock him down and out: he'd already been hit like a tank.

As I understand it, the five tools are (1) hitting for average, (2) hitting for power, (3) base running skills, (4) fielding, and (5) throwing. I'm guessing that the author picked (1) and (2) definitely and (5) barely for Ruth. My pick for the greatest non-pitcher / five tool player of all time is Willie Mays.

Babe Ruth was actually a very average defensive player with a none-too-great throwing arm. As a baserunner
he was absolute horsesh@t---he had no speed and probably picked up as many triples as he did hitting the other
way into old Yankee Stadium's long-distance left center field, which was deep enough that if even Pablo Sandoval
had been a Yankee in those years Kung Food Panda could have hit about fifteen triples in a year hitting into that left
center field.

(As a matter of fact, it was Ruth's non-skill as a runner that ended the 1926 World Series in the Cardinals' favour:
with two out in the ninth, Bob Meusel at the plate, and Lou Gehrig on deck, Ruth---who'd drawn a two-out walk to keep
the Yankees alive---took off inexplicably for second base and was out by about a mile. Nobody had a steal sign on; Ruth
acted entirely on his own. The Yankees thus lost Game Seven---the same game in which Grover Cleveland Alexander came
in from the pen to strike out Tony Lazzeri with the bases loaded and two out two innings earlier---and the Series.)

The most specious argument of all time had to be Branch Rickey's insane comparison of Ralph Kiner to Babe Ruth,
saying Ruth could do everything Kiner couldn't. Kiner was actually a slightly better throwing right fielder than Ruth;
he was sure as hell faster than Ruth even if Kiner didn't try to steal very often; and, if you had put Ruth into the night
ball era in which Kiner played, Ruth's statistics might have shrunk to just about the level of Kiner's. (I saw a very good
analysis of the night ball factor that determined by computer that that was possible.) And, if you put Kiner into the
strictly day-ball era, his stats might have spiked to where his lifetime batting avergae could have pulled in at about .307.
If you had taken all the players from Ruth's and Gehrig's era with all their gaudy batting stats and had them playing
night ball, those upper-.300/low-.400 batting averages wouldn't necessarily exist.

In 1968, Bob Gibson had the greatest single season of any MLB pitcher in history, but Marichal career-wise was overall the better pitcher, no doubt about it. And I'm a Dodger fan!

Bob Gibson got the bigger attention not just because of his 1968 season but because his teams went to three World Series to
Marichal's teams only going to one. Marichal's career was compromised in 1970-71 when a bad reaction to a back shot weakened
him, and he'd never be the same pitcher again. But in the 1960s Marichal was baseball's second best pitcher behind Koufax and
Bob Gibson was a very close third.

Robinson definitely deserved to be in the HOF regardless of his race. Whether he would have actually gotten there if he was white, I don't know.

Again removing his race from the discussion, Jackie Robinson was actually a better second baseman than either Nellie Fox
or Red Schoendienst; that the Dodgers also played him multipositionally and he performed well at those other positions speaks
even better of him. He played the game too hard to last longer than ten years in the majors. Strangely enough, for one
season (1949) the Dodgers batted Robinson cleanup---and he drove in 124 runs. They had so many hitters who could do
cleanup so well that they never thought about trying him there again.

Robinson's closest comp as a second baseman is Joe Morgan---they were just about the same kind of player with the same
skill sets, and while Morgan hit more home runs Robinson actually had a higher slugging percentage. Did I mention the
reminder that Robinson played on six pennant winners?

Remove his race and yes, you have a no-questions-asked Hall of Famer.

Williams was the greatest pure hitter of them all. DiMaggio was probably the better all-around player. However, I would have still picked Williams for my team.

If all you wanted was a pure hitter, you'd pick Williams. If you wanted a great all-around player and a bona fide leader,
you'd pick DiMaggio. Ted Williams spent the bulk of his career at war with the world, or at least with the Boston sports
press. (Yes, they were a particularly carnivorous bunch in those years, but let's call the proverbial spade a proverbial
spade and admit that an awful lot of Williams's problems with them were caused by Williams himself.) Only after his career
did Williams become known as an accommodatingly crotchety old uncle type. (Not to mention a short-term manager
who actually yanked the Washington Senators into a pennant race in 1969 for awhile.) Joe DiMaggio waited
until his playing career ended to wage his own peculiar war with the world, or at least on behalf of preserving his regal
image.

On an all-time team? Williams in left field would be holding Stan Musial's coat. Williams might have been the
better pure hitter, but Stan Musial may have been a better all-around ballplayer than Wiliams and DiMaggio
who got to play in and win a couple of World Series but otherwise spent most of his career for bad Cardinal teams.
By the time the Cardinals looked to be becoming competitive again, Musial was at the end of the line.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 11:41:22 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

A-Lert

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2016, 11:56:24 pm »
https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck-department/memoriam

Remembering Ted Williams: A Marine Fighter Pilot

By LtCol Ronald J. Brown, USMCR (Ret)

United States Marine ground crewmen at Suwon's K-13 Airbase in Korea were alerted that trouble was afoot when they noticed the crash, fire and rescue crews hurriedly manning their emergency vehicles on 16 Feb. 1953. The source of that trouble quickly became apparent when a Marine fighter plane appeared on the horizon.

The midnight-blue F9F "Panther" jet was coming in "heavy" and very fast. Its sluggish movements, trailing smoke and streaming 30-foot ribbon of fire all indicated serious danger. The pilot obviously was having difficulty controlling his aircraft, but he was too low to eject. His only course, therefore, was to try to bring his crippled aircraft in.

An already tense situation became worse when an explosion rocked the undercarriage as the plane approached the airstrip. The stubby fighter plane made a wheels-up "belly" landing, skidding along the tarmac with sparks flying for almost a mile before coming to a stop. The nose promptly burst into flames that threatened the cockpit. The trapped aviator blew off the canopy, struggled out of the plane and limped away, hitting the ground in a less-than-perfect baseball slide.

The plane was a total wreck, but the fortunate pilot suffered only minor scrapes. Later, the airmen at Suwon learned they had witnessed the dramatic escape of the most famous flying leatherneck in Korea; that lucky pilot was none other than Ted Williams, a star professional baseball player who was serving as a Marine reservist.
- See more at: https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/remembering-ted-williams-marine-fighter-pilot#sthash.j6VjDRcf.dpuf


Ted Williams was selected professional baseball's Most Valuable Player in 1946 and 1949. He played on American League All-Star Teams 16 times (1939-42, 194649, 1951, 1953 and 1955-58). He still holds the sixth-best all-time batting average and is second only to Babe Ruth in slugging percentage. He is the oldest man to win a batting title (in 1958 at age 40). The Sporting News named him the Player of the Decade, no small achievement when one looks at his competition: Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle. - See more at: https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/remembering-ted-williams-marine-fighter-pilot#sthash.TWF7vKY9.dpuf

Offline Machiavelli

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2016, 01:31:38 am »

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2016, 03:00:25 am »
You really know your stuff.  :beer:

 :beer:

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« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 03:00:48 am by EasyAce »


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rangerrebew

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2016, 02:15:02 pm »
Remember when he killed the bird with a pitch?

This is what the ADD free flight of ideas will do.  Remember Mark "the Bird" Fidrych and how he used to talk to the baseball plus other unusual things?  He absolutely electrified baseball for a few years, a throwback to the old days.  I actually got to meet him at baseball camp for kids and have his autograph.  About all I could say was thanks for the memories.  I saw Mickey Mantle in his last game at Detroit and Denny McLane served him up an easy gopher ball.  As Mantle rounded third he waved to McLane to acknowledge the "perfect" pitch.  I saw Nolan Ryan in is his last game at Detroit.  He came out an threw a football for about 20 minutes before he started warming up with a baseball.  The Tiger pitcher started and was finished warming up as Ryan threw the football.  My son sent him a baseball card to sign and he got a letter back saying he couldn't do it but enclosed a 4 x 6 picture with his autograph.  Those are the kinds of things I remember.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2016, 02:26:05 pm »
This is what the ADD free flight of ideas will do.  Remember Mark "the Bird" Fidrych and how he used to talk to the baseball plus other unusual things?  He absolutely electrified baseball for a few years, a throwback to the old days.  I actually got to meet him at baseball camp for kids and have his autograph.  About all I could say was thanks for the memories.  I saw Mickey Mantle in his last game at Detroit and Denny McLane served him up an easy gopher ball.  As Mantle rounded third he waved to McLane to acknowledge the "perfect" pitch.  I saw Nolan Ryan in is his last game at Detroit.  He came out an threw a football for about 20 minutes before he started warming up with a baseball.  The Tiger pitcher started and was finished warming up as Ryan threw the football.  My son sent him a baseball card to sign and he got a letter back saying he couldn't do it but enclosed a 4 x 6 picture with his autograph.  Those are the kinds of things I remember.

That was a slider that was going to be a strike....twas no "wild pitch".  That bird was just in the wrong place at the right time.

Does anyone know how the rest of that AB went, for Randy?    :laugh:

Every April 1st, I read "The Curious Case of Sidd Finch", written by George Plimpton and first published in 1985.     
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Who Was Ty Cobb? The History We Know That's Wrong
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2016, 09:28:20 pm »
Remember Mark "the Bird" Fidrych and how he used to talk to the baseball plus other unusual things?  He absolutely electrified baseball for a few years, a throwback to the old days.  I actually got to meet him at baseball camp for kids and have his autograph.  About all I could say was thanks for the memories.

He certainly did in his rookie season. The following spring: injured. Several premature comebacks later---gone. Turned out he injured a knee in spring training,
came back too soon, ended up with a rotator cuff shredded like cheese, impossible to even think about repairing. (The surgery was coming on line at about
the time the Bird hung it up. He didn't even know it was a rotator cuff shredding until it was too late.)

Makes you think about all the other young arms who look so great coming up but for one reason or another end up flaming out too soon. I wrote about them a few years ago:

Rex Barney—Teen phenom with the Brooklyn Dodgers. Harnessed his impossible-to-see fastball by 1948 and won fifteen; had a no-hitter on his resume. End of season: leg fracture in two places sliding into base. Following season: 48 walks in 33 innings, pitching, as one sportswriter phrased it, as though the plate were high and outside. Gone at 25.

Jack Banta—Another Dodger pitching comer who looked like a live one in 1949. After a couple of cups of coffee in 1947 and 1948, the sidewinding Banta came up in 1949 and established himself as one of the club’s top relief pitchers. Came on in the sixth and finished for the win in the September pennant clincher. Three live relief gigs in the World Series. The following season: Shoulder injury and finished. Banta tried to become a manager in the Dodger system but was canned unceremoniously in 1958. Went to work for a grocery distributor as a dock worker and moved up the ranks until his retirement. Died of cardiovascular disease in 2006 at 81. Told Peter Golenbock (for Bums) in the early 1980s that he hadn’t gone to a baseball game since the Dodgers cut him loose as a minor league manager.

Ewell (The Whip) Blackwell—Six-time All-Star for the postwar Cincinnati Reds. Snapping sidearm motion on a 6’6″ pitcher earned Blackwell his nickname and an image, as one writer put it, of “a man falling out of a tree.” Age 24: Led the National League in wins, strikeouts, complete games, strikeouts, and strikeout-to-walk ratio, and almost equaled Johnny Vander Meer’s double no-hit feat. By age 28: Arm trouble, plus kidney removal and appendectomy. By age 30: A spare part on a couple of Yankee pennant winners and, other than an abbreviated comeback with the Kansas City Athletics in 1955, gone at age 32, a shadow of what once terrorised hitters.

Joe Black—1952, as a 28-year-old rookie: Rookie of the Year, finished a league-leading 41 games, first black pitcher to win a World Series game. Next season: Told he needed more stuff, including a curve ball his finger tendons made impossible to throw, Black was a wreck. Never won or saved more than six again; done at 33.

Karl Spooner—Turned a 1954 cup of coffee into three squares at 23: back-to-back shutouts toward season’s end, in the first of which he struck out fifteen, for a rookie record that stood until J.R. Richard smashed it. Struck out 27 over the two games. Spring training 1955: Came into a game without a proper warmup and blew his arm out. Struggled through the season, never appeared in the majors again following Game One of the 1955 World Series. “Sooner with Spooner,” the saying Dodger fans came up with over his stupefying 1954 debut, took on a sinister meaning after that.

Herb Score—At 22: Rode bullet fastball to Rookie of the Year honours, 245 strikeouts, and a 9.7 strikeouts-per-nine rate, leading the league. At 23: 20 wins, five shutouts, 268 strikeouts, another league-leading strikeouts-per-nine rate (9.5). He was Sandy Koufax a few years before Koufax became Koufax, basically. At 24: Hit in the face by Gil McDougald’s liner in his fifth start; gone for the year. At 25: Ruptured a tendon in his pitching elbow on a rainy afternoon (he surely could have used Tommy John surgery, had it been invented at the time), tried to adjust his mechanics to compensate, and was never again the pitcher he looked to have been after missing almost two full seasons. By age 29 and a number of faltering comebacks: Finished on the mound, headed for a second career in the broadcast booth.

Steve Dalkowski—Minor league phenom whose heater may have made Score’s seem like a changeup. (What the hey, Ted Williams himself said he couldn’t see it.) Finally harnessed it enough to make the Orioles in 1963 spring training, at age 24 . . . and blew his elbow out pitching to Yankee rookie Phil Linz. Bounced back to the minors; drank himself out of baseball by age 26. Would the Orioles have won their first World Series sooner with a healthy Dalkowski?

Jim Bouton—Age 23: Yankee comer with a hard fastball delivered just as hard. Age 24: Yankee 21-game winner. Age 25: Improving strikeout-to-walk ratio and WHIP while winning 18 for the last of the old-guard Yankee pennant winners. Age 26: Shoulder and arm miseries begin, never again an effective starter. By age 31: Marginal relief pitcher and gone, mostly because he’s lost whatever was left, though the controversy around Ball Four didn’t help. Brief, memorable comeback with the 1978 Atlanta Braves, including a pitcher’s duel with J.R. Richard in which neither got the decision, but ended it after that season.

Art Mahaffey–Live fastball, maybe the best pickoff move in the National League, did what he could on some terrible Phillies teams between 1961 and 1963. (He had threatened—bravely or brazenly, depending on your point of view—to pick off the first man to reach base against him in the majors . . . then, he picked off the first three.) Two-time All-Star who looked like he’d rehorse in 1964 until a) his strikeout rate collapsed profoundly, and b) he—with everyone else in the park—was stunned by Cincinnati rookie Chico Ruiz’s stealing home in the game that launched the infamous Phillie phold. (Ruiz’s steal was the only run of the game.) He may or may not have been doghoused by manager Gene Mauch over it. Mahaffey would get only one start during the peak of that fateful losing streak, pitching solidly enough in his loss to cause some teammates to wonder whether the phold could have been blocked if he’d gotten another start during that streak, especially with Mauch barely willing to trust his bullpen. (Infamously, Mauch went to Jim Bunning and Chris Short in seven of the ten games, three each on two days’ rest.) An arm injury cost Mahaffey his fastball; struggling as a finesse pitcher, he was finished by the end of 1966 and and a non-descript season with the St. Louis Cardinals (to whom Mahaffey was dealt after 1965 in the deal that sent Bill White to Philadelphia); the Cardinals shipped him to the Mets for 1967, but he never showed up in the majors again.  He went into the insurance business after retiring from baseball. If you believe in the so-called Sports Illustrated cover jinx, be advised that the spindly Mahaffey was an April 1963 cover boy. As strange as this may sound—considering such Phillie strikeout emperors to come as Jim Bunning, Steve Carlton, and Curt Schilling—Mahaffey still holds the Phillies’ single-game strikeout record, striking out 17 Cubs in 1961.

Sammy Ellis—Looked like a comer with the mid-1960s Reds; he mixed a swift, riding fastball and a knuckleball into a 10-3/14 save 1964 (he actually finished in the top 20 among MVP vote-getters, since his performance helped keep the Reds in the pennant race as the Phillies came to fold) and, as a starter, a 22-10 1965 and his only All-Star appearance. He looked like he’d become the no-questions-asked number two man behind Jim Maloney until he developed arm trouble, bounced around to the Angels, White Sox, and Indians, before calling it a career and becoming a long-time, somewhat traveled, respected pitching coach, primarily for the Yankees in the early 1980s.

Jim Lonborg—At 25, put it together following his first two warmup seasons with a Cy Young award, the league leadership in wins, starts, and strikeouts. 1967 World Series: Wheeled out on two days’ rest for Game Seven and couldn’t hold his own. Offseason: Knee injury in a skiing accident. Next season: Late start, disoriented mechanics, never again anywhere near the pitcher he was in 1967 despite forging a long enough career. Reversed Casey Stengel’s professional path and became a dentist after his baseball career.

Denny McLain—Twenty-game winner at 22. Thirty-one-game winner at 24; 24-game winner at 25. Next season: Suspended over gun carrying. Following season: Arm still wrung by too many innings pitched (he averaged 290 innings pitched over the span; pitched over 320 innings in each of 1968 and 1969) and maybe too many complete games (he pitched 51 of them in 1968-69), he lost 22 for the 1970 Senators and had no arm left by age 28. That proved to be the least of his problems as life went on, alas.

Steve Blass—After a few seasons to horse himself, he sat on top of the world in 1971 as one of the keys to the Pirates’ World Series championship (he beat the Orioles twice with complete-game wins) and in 1972 as an All-Star. Three years later: lost control, lost career. Blass has since managed to come to terms with the collapse of his pitching career and become a longtime, long-loved colour commentator on the Pirates’ television broadcasts. But “Steve Blass Disease” has entered the baseball lexicon, with Willis cited as its most recent and prominent victim, even though Blass may never have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder.

Randy Jones—After a frightful (22-game losing) start at age 24, went back-to-back 20-game winning at 25-26, including a Cy Young Award. Slop-tossing righthander. He also threw 600 innnings in those two (1975-76) seasons. 1977: His arm committed suicide; he’d hang in until he was 32 but never had a winning season after 27.

Wayne Garland—At 25, emerged as a 20-game winner with an ERA under 2.70, and landed himself one of the early yummy multi-year free agency contracts. The following spring training: Hellbent on living up to that then-monster deal, Garland blew his rotator cuff, tried pitching through it anyway, and led the league in losses with 19. Hung in for half of the ten-year deal, eventually earned a friendly reputation for pitching with guts, but he stands as the classic example of what pushing too hard can do to the unsuspecting.

Mike Flanagan—Cy Young winner at 27. Didn’t know his own limits; pitched an astouding 157 straight turns, never missing a start, while hurt. Never won as many as 17 the rest of his career; won 15 or 16 only twice more. Eventually joined the Oriole front office; committed suicide in 2011.

J.R. Richard—Took his time to become the National League’s mound terror, and he was still only 29 after he broke the National League record for strikeouts by a righthander. Age 30: Stroke, career dead. Hit rock bottom before going into the ministry.

Steve Stone—Took the steady ride to the top and bagged the 1980 Cy Young Award. The following season, he was gone after fifteen games, at 32. The verdict: His curve ball destroyed him—he threw it too often for his own good and took it to fever pitch in 1980. Became a broadcaster.

Mike Norris—What the curve ball was to Stone, the screwball—plus 24 complete games in his 22-game winning season at age 25, not to mention that he may have been a screwball—proved to Norris. They still debate which went south first and faster, Norris’s arm or his off-field life.

Steve McCatty—Wins and ERA champ done in by too many complete games. Don’t think for one moment that his experience on that ill-fated Oakland rotation of 1981-83 didn't have a factor in formulating the Strasburg Plan a couple of years ago even if he didn’t have Tommy John surgery himself: McCatty was the Nats’ pitching coach, until he got purged undeservedly in the Matt Williams managerial disaster.

Pete Vukovich—Another steady rider to the top. Landed a Cy Young award in 1982, at 29 . . . and, after winning nothing to open 1983, missed the rest of that season and all 1984. Pitched hurt helping the Brewers win the 1982 pennant; gone at 33.

LaMarr Hoyt—Back-to-back wins champion at ages 27-28, including a Cy Young Award. At 29: 18-game loser, future drug rehab patient, finished at 31. Hoyt’s drug issues tied mostly to painkillers and marijuana, presumably taken up in a bid to relieve the shoulder discomforts while desperately trying to find ways to pitch again. He wouldn’t find them until it was too late, and a return to the White Sox after his ill-fated spell in San Diego revealed what had really gone wrong with his shoulder: a frayed rotator cuff that wasn't diagnosed properly, not to mention undiagnosed bicep tearing. (He did win a judgment against the Padres, though, after their then-owner called him a cokehead when he spoke of taking---wait for it---Valium, while the team failed to diagnose his physical issues properly.)

Rick Sutcliffe—ERA champ at 26; 20-game winner (including a 16-1 mark in the National League after his trade to the Cubs, leading them to their first postseason since 1946) and Cy Young pitcher at 28. At 29-30: Injuries, 11-22 span thanks to premature comebacks. Occasional flashes of his old self the rest of the way . . . very occasional. He, too, moved to the broadcast booth in due course.

Dwight Gooden—From 19-21 they talked about when, not if he’d make the Hall of Fame having obliterated half the pitching records in the book. Warning sign: the 1986 Mets began throwing salves of doubt into the quietly confident kid, telling him, essentially, he couldn’t live on just that exploding fastball and voluptuous curve ball. Forget the drug issues, Gooden by 25 would be damaged once and for all by shoulder issues. The miracle is that he managed to make a sixteen-year career with a .634 winning percentage, but they’ll never stop calling him the greatest might-have-been of them all. His post-baseball life hasn’t been simple, either.

Mike Boddicker—Age 26, after a few cups of coffee and a promising 1983: Led the American League in wins and ERA. The next and last nine seasons of his career: Won more than 15 only once; never again got his ERA under 3.00; never again enjoyed a WHIP under 1.20. Those in the know believed Boddicker was done in by too many innings and too many curve balls, neither of which his body could really withstand.

Generation K—The once-vaunted trio of Met young guns. Jason Isringhausen, Paul Wilson, Bill Pulsipher. Arm and shoulder trouble practically out of the chute. Only Isringhausen would make anything like a long, never mind respectable career, and that when he converted to relief pitching. He ended up with exactly 300 saves for his effort.

Steve Avery—Want one reason why Scott Boras wasn’t in any big hurry to push his client Stephen Strasburg to infinity and beyond in 2012? He’d been there, done that: Avery at 21 went 18-8 and finished sixth in the Cy Young voting helping the worst-to-first Atlanta pennant winners. By 23: 50-36 record, ERA around 3.20, excellent postseason jacket. At 24: Popped an armpit muscle, never again the same, gone swiftly enough.

Kerry Wood—At 21: A 20-K game and a Rookie of the Year award. At 22: Sitting out a season following Tommy John surgery. By 26: Don’t go by the innings pitched, he was piling up crazy pitch counts as often as not and ended up developing triceps and rotator cuff trouble, among other maladies. He’d make fourteen trips to the disabled list and convert to relief pitching before he finally called it a career.

Mark Prior—At 21: mid-season phenom. At 22: 18-game winner, All-Star, third-place Cy Young finisher. At 23: Achilles tendon injury just the first of enough health troubles including two shoulder surgeries that Prior hasn’t thrown a major league pitch since 2005. Latest comeback attempt in the Red Sox organisation ended with his release last week. What got him? Possibly the same thing that helped get Wood—too many 120+ pitch count games too young—plus his pitching mechanics, which may have put excess strain on his shoulders before anyone caught on. Prior finally gave up the ghost at the end of 2013 and went to work in the Padres' front office.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 09:37:25 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.