Author Topic: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)  (Read 8373 times)

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Offline ABX

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The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« on: March 13, 2016, 09:53:43 pm »
There is a war in the GOP going on. Turn on the news every night, click over to any internet forum or social media platform and you’ll see the volleys of fire burning bright.

We are told by some that this war is between ‘we the people’ and ‘the establishment’. That, of course, is the line that many politicians want you to believe so you can feel like you are part of a large group of the ‘silent majority’ finally standing up against some dark room power in Washington D.C.

The truth, however, may be much different. The war isn’t between the people and the establishment. When it comes to politics, there always will be an establishment- the business of politics demand it and the nature that once one is elected in a party, he is considered part of that establishment. When one really looks at the dividing lines in this war within the GOP and what people are fighting over, rhetoric aside, the real war is an old one- the battle between the authoritarian right and the libertarian right.  (For the sake of clarity, I’ll interject here I’m not referring to the Libertarian Party but the anti-authoritarian, small government libertarian mindset.)  This split in the right can be visualized in the famous Nolan Chart of political thought. Just substitute statist for authoritarian. Some versions even replace this with populist.


This is the battle that Reagan fought when going up against Ford in 76 and Bush/Anderson in 80. Reagan, by today’s standards, would probably be accused of being establishment just like Bush and Anderson as he had a history of holding political office and running the business of the party. Reagan however, didn’t run his campaign as an outsider against the establishment, but on one of reducing the authoritarian nature of the GOP and giving the individual more control over his or her life.

One of Reagan’s most famous quotes sums up how he ran: “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help’”.   This was in sharp contrast to the Republican Party that had long before called for a strong centralized role and government solutions to most problems.

Fast forward to the past few of decades. After the Reagan Revolution and subsequent financial booms, limited government Conservatives became complacent. They even had a huge victory in getting Clinton to sign a balanced budget and welfare reform acts- both driven by a Republican Congress even though Clinton took credit after it was shown they were successful.  We then had 9/11 and our nation went into a war footing. While we rightfully looked to a strong central government to handle military conflicts, we started letting that bleed over into other areas, such as more calls for control of speech, more involvement in healthcare (Medicare prescription drug program for example), more centralized control of education (no child left behind). Slowly, the desire for a strong authoritarian Right replaced Reagan’s liberty minded Right. I’m from the government and I’m here to help became less terrifying and more a rallying cry.

This authoritarianism has led us to a path now where the government is involved in everything and both parties fight for stronger centralized control promising more or better government control of health care, more or better control of jobs, more or better control of education, the list goes on and on, with promises of the government to be here to help.

For many, the blame was laid right at the foot of what they thought were establishment deal makers ceding Conservative principles for centralized control. For the current election cycle, this has been the rallying cry of many- take back the government from the establishment.

But for the average voter, what does that mean?  This is where our current battle map is. For many, the solution is Donald Trump’s populist campaign to “Make America Great Again” with promises of a wall, taxing the hell out of foreign imports, and punishing those who speak out against them. Even though the call for ‘banning Muslims’ and the government tracking them were exaggerated by the media, the reaction to the voters is what is more telling. As the politicians backed off that rhetoric, many of the supporters cheered the idea and defended it long after the candidate explained away what he really meant. In many ways, this is an understandable reaction, both coming off a war footing of the early 2000s but also that many of the issues that we think are harming us look as though they can only be fixed with a strong, centralized government.

For the libertarian minded right, all of this is terrifying. We don’t see this as the people versus the establishment, but trading one authoritarian mindset for another authoritarian mindset with a different letter behind the candidate’s name. We see this as continuing down the same path that has caused many of this country’s woes in the first place- the people ceding their personal responsibility and rights to a strong central authority. The only thing different between some candidates on the Right versus the Left in regards to this is simply the specific issue- yet both are promising the same thing, stronger centralized authority and a government who is here to fix things for you.

When someone says #NeverTrump, they aren’t siding with the establishment nor are they rooting for a Democrat win. They are fighting against what they see is the continuing of a long march towards tyranny with an ever growing centralized government. ‘Us versus the establishment’ is just a marketing ploy. The establishment will always be around as long as there is someone who is willing to make a deal.

The war isn’t against an establishment; it is about what philosophy defines the Right.


« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 10:39:57 pm by AbaraXas »

Online massadvj

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2016, 10:13:52 pm »
Nicely done, AbaraXas.  Pretty much sums up my point of view as well.

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2016, 10:19:52 pm »
I posted the Nolan chart on here a few days ago, mentioning that the Trump/Anti-Trump split wasn't a right/left divide, but a libertarian/authoritarian schism.

Here it is: http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,198358.msg809461.html#msg809461

---

No one paid a d@#n about it. 😔
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 10:21:53 pm by HonestJohn »

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2016, 10:23:28 pm »
Nicely explained, and in a dispassionate way that provides foundational context for the far more emotional battle that rages each day, on the surface.
"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Offline EasyAce

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2016, 11:39:49 pm »
Fast forward to the past few of decades. After the Reagan Revolution and subsequent financial booms, limited government Conservatives became complacent. They even had a huge victory in getting Clinton to sign a balanced budget and welfare reform acts- both driven by a Republican Congress even though Clinton took credit after it was shown they were successful.  We then had 9/11 and our nation went into a war footing. While we rightfully looked to a strong central government to handle military conflicts, we started letting that bleed over into other areas, such as more calls for control of speech, more involvement in healthcare (Medicare prescription drug program for example), more centralized control of education (no child left behind). Slowly, the desire for a strong authoritarian Right replaced Reagan’s liberty minded Right. "I’m from the government and I’m here to help" became less terrifying and more a rallying cry.

This book laid it out in plain language in 2007:



Now, I wonder: How telling is it that a good many folk (not all, but a good many) now supporting Mr. Trump
could be seen in other forums, pre-Obama, standing up for the big government Bush Republican era? And,
dressing down if not downright insulting (or, if they had admin power, banning from those forums) anyone who
stood athwart that big government side of the Bush era yelling "Stop!" (Big government for me but not for thee?)
And today they say Mr. Trump is what's needed to clean up the infestion the big-government Bush Republican era
impregnated only to see it more fruitful and multiplying than a tank full of guppies in the Obama era?

When those people complain about the out-of-control, suffocating big government that needs nothing less than
Mr. Trump's brand of extermination---in which the house is destroyed but the vermin survive---they are complaining
about the monster they suckled. Once again, they are only too willing to gamble with what's left of our freedom.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 11:41:16 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline ABX

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2016, 12:19:10 am »
Quote
“Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.”-  Milton Friedman

Offline EasyAce

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 12:32:12 am »
“Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.”-  Milton Friedman

It is one of the saddest spectacles of our time to see a great democratic movement support a policy which must lead to the destruction of democracy and which meanwhile can benefit only a minority of the masses who support it. ---Friedrich A. Hayek.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 12:54:24 am »
Even though Trump has had some usefulness, in the big picture I agree with the article in that all we are doing is trading one kind of authoritarianism for another, in this case GOPe for the old Nixonian populism. It's called anti-Establishment, but it's really just the old switcharoo of taking out one kind of Establishment and bringing in another, all dressed up in the finery of kabuki theater.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 12:55:13 am by Free Vulcan »
The Republic is lost.

Bill Cipher

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2016, 01:46:32 am »
Viz. the Nolan chart, I would disagree that greater personal freedom and greater economic freedom are opposites, which is what the chart implies - i.e., go left to get greater personal freedom, but at the implicit expense of no or of less economic freedom, and vice versa.  The great lesson of the Western world seems to me to be that the two go hand in hand, and that one cannot reliably have more of one without more of the other.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2016, 01:50:23 am »
I like to consider myself a libertarian-conservative but then again, I've gotten in enough battles with Ronulans to know that I'll never be crazy enough for them.

Plus I just cannot find sympathy with OWS and BLM types. They itch my inner authoritarian.

Bill Cipher

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2016, 01:52:06 am »
Even though Trump has had some usefulness, in the big picture I agree with the article in that all we are doing is trading one kind of authoritarianism for another, in this case GOPe for the old Nixonian populism. It's called anti-Establishment, but it's really just the old switcharoo of taking out one kind of Establishment and bringing in another, all dressed up in the finery of kabuki theater.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

:thumbsup:

Online Bigun

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2016, 02:36:05 am »
Electing Trump  to clean up government is like burning down the house to get rid of the roaches!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline ABX

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2016, 06:42:57 pm »
Viz. the Nolan chart, I would disagree that greater personal freedom and greater economic freedom are opposites, which is what the chart implies - i.e., go left to get greater personal freedom, but at the implicit expense of no or of less economic freedom, and vice versa.  The great lesson of the Western world seems to me to be that the two go hand in hand, and that one cannot reliably have more of one without more of the other.

They are move in opposite paths on the authoritarian spectrum on the bottom but converge on the libertarian spectrum on the top. As extreme authoritarians move right, they allow for more economic liberty, as they move left, more personal liberty. But the extreme of authoritarianism is limiting both while the extreme of libertarianism (small l) is maximizing both.

Offline ABX

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2016, 06:43:47 pm »
Electing Trump  to clean up government is like burning down the house to get rid of the roaches!

Which my wife would do if she saw a spider. She practically empties an entire can of Raid for one little house spider.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2016, 10:13:05 pm »
Electing Trump  to clean up government is like burning down the house to get rid of the roaches!

« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 10:55:44 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Meshuge Mikey

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2016, 12:45:33 am »
Electing Trump  to clean up government is like burning down the house to get rid of the roaches!
 


  :amen:
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 12:59:15 am by Meshuge Mikey »
Have Indentified as a Male since birth!

A-Lert

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2016, 04:37:15 am »
Washington D.C. is full of roaches, from congress to the White House. Time for a thorough cleaning.

Offline ABX

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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2016, 04:02:48 pm »
Washington D.C. is full of roaches, from congress to the White House. Time for a thorough cleaning.

This is one of these meaningless statements Trump supporters make on FR and elsewhere, how do you accomplish that?

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2016, 04:14:26 pm »
Again, an emotion based opinion wrapped in a fake guise of reason.

The Authoritarian Left has run the country of 8 years with the rubber stamp blanket approval of the GOP Establishment in DC. To pretend that is not the case and manufacture these fake straw-men of the "Authoritarian Right" vr the "Libertarians" is absurd.

There is nothing remote "authoritarian' in Trumps ideas of demanding we actually enforce our law and expect our government to work within the legal framework.

This is just a manufactured false set of pejoratives used to rationalize a position of willful ignorance when it come to Trump.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 04:16:30 pm by GAJohnnie »

Offline ABX

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2016, 05:47:50 pm »
Rush is discussing this now. How Trump is pushing out the Buckley type Conservatives (as well as Christian Conservatives and Libertarians) and replacing them with a new European Populist style right wing party.

A-Lert

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2016, 08:00:22 pm »
This is one of these meaningless statements Trump supporters make on FR and elsewhere, how do you accomplish that?

Meaningless like the leadership of the GOP for decades?

Elect a leader, a person who can get things done. A person who has a record of accomplishments. Like any other large difficult job, you face it head on and take aggressive  action, unlike the status quo, milquetoast, wafflers currently occupying D.C. The GOP is a leaderless party. They talk, promise and fail. I believe securing our borders, balancing the budget, reforming the tax system, controlling entitlements and shrinking government can only be accomplished through strong leadership. I believe Trump is capable of starting the process.

A-Lert

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2016, 08:02:19 pm »
Again, an emotion based opinion wrapped in a fake guise of reason.

The Authoritarian Left has run the country of 8 years with the rubber stamp blanket approval of the GOP Establishment in DC. To pretend that is not the case and manufacture these fake straw-men of the "Authoritarian Right" vr the "Libertarians" is absurd.

There is nothing remote "authoritarian' in Trumps ideas of demanding we actually enforce our law and expect our government to work within the legal framework.

This is just a manufactured false set of pejoratives used to rationalize a position of willful ignorance when it come to Trump.

 :thumbsup:

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2016, 12:28:48 am »
...


...

The war isn’t against an establishment; it is about what philosophy defines the Right.

I'm a simple person, so I see this a bit more simply.  I think of it more as a linear continuum, the left being more government: socialism, fascism, communism, (and what democracy devolves into all but a very few, small societies) etc; and on the right less government: republicanism, libertarianism, anarchy. 

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2016, 12:30:59 am »
Rush is discussing this now. How Trump is pushing out the Buckley type Conservatives (as well as Christian Conservatives and Libertarians) and replacing them with a new European Populist style right wing party.

Boy is he right on that one!