Author Topic: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma  (Read 2320 times)

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Offline GAJohnnie

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Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« on: March 10, 2016, 01:18:41 pm »
The 2016 GOP Primary has brought up an old divide in Conservatism. There currently is a war being waged between the Dogmatics and the Realists. The Dogmatist care nothing about political realities, only the purity of the candidates political dogma matters to them. The Realist understands you have to be able to advance the political ball down the field to achieve the goals of the dogma. The Realist understands some times a flawed tool is going work better then the flawlessly poltical pure tool.

Reagan, who was a realist, wrote about it.

By Ronald Reagan in his autobiography An American Life

“When I began entering into the give and take of legislative bargaining in Sacramento, a lot of the most radical conservatives who had supported me during the election didn’t like it. “Compromise” was a dirty word to them and they wouldn’t face the fact that we couldn’t get all of what we wanted today. They wanted all or nothing and they wanted it all at once. If you don’t get it all, some said, don’t take anything. I’d learned while negotiating union contracts that you seldom got everything you asked for. And I agreed with FDR, who said in 1933: ‘I have no expectations of making a hit every time I come to bat. What I seek is the highest possible batting average.’ If you got seventy-five or eighty percent of what you were asking for, I say, you take it and fight for the rest later, and that’s what I told these radical conservatives who never got used to it.

The Dogmatic at NR, Town Hall, Red State and the rest of the "Conservative" media sneer at the realist as being "nihlistic towards DC and the GOP".

It is not Nihilism, it Realism. Since 1988 Conservatives have faithfully pledges their treasure and time to the GOP. Despite elections successes in 1988, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2010 and 2014 what have Conservative gotten from the GOP?

Prosperity? Nope worse economy since 1979.

Reduction in Government-nope as expensive, corrupt, incompetent, intrusive and bigger then ever

Supreme Court? Nope as far left as it has ever been.

A Nation secure? Nope  at risk in a dangerous world. Military broken, exhausted and overextended.

A respect for rule of law and the Constitution? Nope. Government, and society, is more lawless then it has ever been.

A healthy growing vibrant society? Nope stagnant, or in decline, everywhere in every way.

So, it not Nihilism, it Realism. It is a realistic assessment that doing the same thing again this year electorally is going to continue this decline and degradation from DC.You can only overcome inertia in any system with force. So we need to force DC out of it denigrate path onto a new path. So why Trump rather then Cruz?

I know this falls on deaf ears with 100%ers at NR, Red State and other “Conservative” media but the fact remains, we are a Constitutional Republic that rests on the notion that the people’s Representatives in Government know how to compromise and negotiate.

This feeling that Cruz will ride into DC and dictate the Conservative Media’s 100%er terms to everyone else there is simply wishful thinking. What is more probable is Cruz would be a GOP Carter.

Carter was the same sort of religious political puritan who went to DC and assumed he would dictate his political dogmas to everyone there. The record shows how badly that idea failed.

“Conservative” politicians talk a good game and then go to DC and accomplish nothing. After 30 years of fail, it is time to try another solution. The winning candidate is, brace yourselves.... going to have to cut DEALS! And some times those deals require..compromise!!!

Another fail point for the “Principled Conservatives” is they think only as far as the election. Then once they win their purity candidates go to DC and fail against the inertia of the DC/Media political machine. 1988-1994-1998-2000-2002-2004-2010-2014 are all example of where this “Next election” mindset has failed.

Trump is merely the 1st wave of a multi wave assault. Cruz might do for a follow up wave, he is not a 1st wave candidate. Without Trump to lead the way, the Cruz boat would of either been ignored because it was irrelevant, or been shelled into oblivion by the $10s of millions of GOPE attack ads.

The 1st wave job in any assault is to shatter the defenses and open the road for the follow up waves. No matter how flawed you think the vessel is, Trump is the best 1st wave political assault team we have had to hand in my lifetime.

We need to use Trump for all he is worth to shatter the corrupt, “my party right or wrong” mindset that grips vast swaths of the electorate. Break that inertia, get the people thinking outside the party label box and real change is possible. Do not an we slide into a stagnate European style decline that will not end in my lifetime. Cruz shares that agenda point but is not as well equipped by background and media following to achieve that break through as Trump

We either win this now or we have little chance of ever doing it again politically. Once we win we must relentlessly stay on the attack election wave after election wave until we are dead.

I am really not willing to leave this fight to my kids and grand-kids. We have let the ship of state drift since Reagan in the hands of the “smart people”. We failed and must redeem that failure.

This is our generation’s “go” time

« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 03:50:17 pm by GAJohnnie »

Offline mystery-ak

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2016, 03:35:24 pm »
Was this written by you Johnnie?
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Offline alicewonders

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2016, 03:37:50 pm »
Was this written by you Johnnie?

I asked him, he said it was.  I think it is excellent.
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We told you Trump would win - bigly!

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2016, 03:45:51 pm »
Was this written by you Johnnie?

yes it was

Offline MBB1984

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2016, 03:52:50 pm »
Wonderful. He still cannot win in November. Which means a liberal USSC for decades.

This election is completely up for grabs.  Hillary has legal issues and a train car load of baggage and Bern supporters may be in a punishing mood.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2016, 03:55:55 pm »
This election is completely up for grabs.  Hillary has legal issues and a train car load of baggage and Bern supporters may be in a punishing mood.

Really? So nobody will vote for Hillary? She's actually gotten more votes than any other candidate, GOP or Democrat, at least as of a few days ago.

Now granted some of this might be because the Dems are in a two way race, and "we" are in a 3 way race.

But there remains a huge amount of voters who will vote for her regardless.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2016, 04:04:18 pm »
This election is completely up for grabs.  Hillary has legal issues and a train car load of baggage and Bern supporters may be in a punishing mood.

Actually it's not. Hillary's lead over Trump is 9 points, and it's increased 6 points in the last two months, even with all her problems.

If Trump stays Trump, he will lose badly.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2016, 04:07:57 pm »

"Up for grabs".


[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2016, 05:25:23 pm »
Another issue is the  the Dogmatic tend to follow emotion rather then reason. You are seeing that a lot this sort of response around the web these days. An emotional knee jerk respond rather then a thoughtful considered reply to points contrary to their opinions.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2016, 05:30:25 pm »
Another issue is the  the Dogmatic tend to follow emotion rather then reason. You are seeing that a lot this sort of response around the web these days. An emotional knee jerk respond rather then a thoughtful considered reply to points contrary to their opinions.

Describes Donald's supporters to a T.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2016, 05:35:17 pm »
Another issue is the  the Dogmatic tend to follow emotion rather then reason. You are seeing that a lot this sort of response around the web these days. An emotional knee jerk respond rather then a thoughtful considered reply to points contrary to their opinions.

Nothing emotional about the polls showing Trump losing to Hillary. Those are facts.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2016, 08:58:23 pm »
Thank you both for proving my point

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2016, 09:07:40 pm »
Thank you both for proving my point

 *hmmmm*
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We told you Trump would win - bigly!

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2016, 09:20:27 pm »
This election is completely up for grabs.  Hillary has legal issues and a train car load of baggage and Bern supporters may be in a punishing mood.

I think Hillary, being the political beast she is, knows this and will nominate someone from the more progressive side of the Democrat party to compensate.  Bernie, himself, or else Elizabeth Warren.

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2016, 03:29:41 pm »
Quote
I know this falls on deaf ears with 100%ers at NR, Red State and other “Conservative” media but the fact remains, we are a Constitutional Republic that rests on the notion that the people’s Representatives in Government know how to compromise and negotiate.

How does this differ from Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, Trent Lott, or John Boehner? That is all they've done and did in their terms as congressional leaders.

You are putting up two completely contradictory ideas - that Trump is somehow going to smash thru all resistance and dominate the players in the game to get results, while at the same time he's going to deal and compromise to somehow make change.

How exactly is that going to work since those are two completely opposite things?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 03:30:25 pm by Free Vulcan »
The Republic is lost.

rangerrebew

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2016, 04:15:35 pm »
Dogmatism vs. realism?  How about the Constitution and the rule of law vs. license and total chaos?  How about white vs. black and brown?  How about wealthy vs. everyone else?  How about the political elite vs. voters?  But I guess those are all part of dogmatism vs. realism.

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2016, 07:57:13 pm »
Another issue is the  the Dogmatic tend to follow emotion rather then reason. You are seeing that a lot this sort of response around the web these days. An emotional knee jerk respond rather then a thoughtful considered reply to points contrary to their opinions.

Can't argue that.  Only have to look at the safe zone to see a lot of emotional posts.  And now it's being used to hammer away at Cruz while no one here can argue on his behalf.  Is that reason or dogmatism? 

You wrote earlier that: The winning candidate is, brace yourselves.... going to have to cut DEALS! And some times those deals require..compromise!!!.  And yet many on your side including your candidate have roundly criticized Rubio for...entering into a compromise on immigration because most of the Congress wouldn't deal on the issue.  And those here who have in the past supported candidates like Bush, Rubio and Kasich have been clobbered for supporting those willing to sit down and compromise.  Can't have it both ways.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Online Fishrrman

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2016, 02:59:24 am »
GAJohnnie wrote:
"yes it was"

Fine, fine piece, Johnnie!

I'd suggest you submit it over at the "American Thinker" site, as well, for wider exposure.
As much as I like The Briefing Room, this place has a very limited audience.

I have no doubts that Senator Cruz is ideologically a "conservative", but I believe he could best serve the country not in the White House, but o'er at the Supreme Court. The justices' conference room is a better arena in which to use his excellent debating skills for our side. He would be a positive force there for decades to come.

I have my reservations about Mr. Trump. I'm wondering if he has the temperament to be "a president". I'm wondering if he understands that, to be president, he's going from being "the master" to the servant -- of the Constitution and to the American people. I'm wondering if when he walks into the Oval Office, he will feel humility and respect, instead of hubris.

I seem to recall hearing that Ronald Reagan wouldn't take his suit jacket off there, out of respect for the office he had come to hold. This in contrast to obama, who puts his shoes on the desk.

Will Donald Trump understand the difference?

I guess we're gonna find out!

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2016, 03:34:07 am »
I think this is a well written and thoughtful argument, but I too wonder how Trump supporters square the circle when they dream that RINO Trump will solve the problems in Washington DC by making deals, when they also think deal making from the RINO GOPe is the cause of the problems. :shrug:

How is Trump going to be different than compromisers like Ryan and Mitchell?

A-Lert

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2016, 07:02:04 am »
Nothing emotional about the polls showing Trump losing to Hillary. Those are facts.

No, they aren't facts, they are polls.

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2016, 07:04:32 am »
I think this is a well written and thoughtful argument, but I too wonder how Trump supporters square the circle when they dream that RINO Trump will solve the problems in Washington DC by making deals, when they also think deal making from the RINO GOPe is the cause of the problems. :shrug:

How is Trump going to be different than compromisers like Ryan and Mitchell?

What exactly has the GOP compromised on? Caving in isn't a compromise.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2016, 07:18:13 am »
What exactly has the GOP compromised on? Caving in isn't a compromise.
Well in my mind they haven't compromised on anything, but many intellectual Trump supporters have said otherwise.  I am not surprised that you can't think of one single issue the GOP has compromised on.  I have always been unimpressed with your debating skills.

Where is DC Patriot?  Where is Aligncare?

Where are the A-listers?

Why are they letting a simpleton fight their fights? 

Is this the best I deserve?

have I fallen so low?

A-Lert

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Re: Dogmatism vrs Realism the Conservative Dilemma
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2016, 08:26:55 am »
Well in my mind they haven't compromised on anything, but many intellectual Trump supporters have said otherwise.  I am not surprised that you can't think of one single issue the GOP has compromised on.  I have always been unimpressed with your debating skills.

Where is DC Patriot?  Where is Aligncare?

Where are the A-listers?

Why are they letting a simpleton fight their fights? 

Is this the best I deserve?

have I fallen so low?

Thank you for reinforcing what I suspected of you. :LAME: