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Offline sinkspur

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Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« on: February 26, 2016, 04:56:19 am »
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/republican-debate-houston/471120/

Donald Trump's Terrible Night

The Republican frontrunner took some sharp blows from Marco Rubio, and appeared listless—even low energy—up on stage.
 
DAVID A. GRAHAM  11:31 PM ET   POLITICS

Donald Trump has gotten very used to winning recently, after racking up three straight primary and caucus wins. He’s even promised to win so much that Americans will get sick of winning.

But he didn’t get a victory in Houston on Thursday.

It was Trump’s worst debate of the campaign, and the defeat came largely at the hands of Marco Rubio, who hit Trump early and often. The climactic moment arrived during a discussion of health insurance. Every candidate has promised to repeal and replace Obamacare, but with what? Trump’s answer was that he’d allow the sale of insurance across state lines. Rubio pressed him: Is that all you’ve got? When Trump tried to slap back, Rubio was ready.

“He’s repeating himself!” Rubio exclaimed with a grin, echoing the very attack Chris Christie used so effectively against him just a few weeks ago. “I’m not repeating myself. I’m not repeating myself,” Trump insisted, but he was practically drowned out by the huge round of applause sweeping the hall.

It’s a wonder no one thought to accuse Trump of repetition before. As Rubio noted, Trump repeats a familiar set of slogans over and over: Make America great again. Build the wall. Win. Stop losing at trade. Force Trump away from those mantras, and he tends to get lost and confused. Of course, it’s also a wonder that no one has attacked Trump so directly before in debates, and especially that Rubio hasn’t done so. Right from the start on Thursday night, though, the Florida senator unloaded line after line of opposition research. He noted that Trump had paid $1 million to settle a court case over use of Polish illegal-immigrant labor. He pointed out that Trump is being sued for fraud over the so-called Trump University, a glorified real-estate seminar. He said that without his father’s inheritance, Trump would be "selling watches in Manhattan."

It was an incredible barrage. Only Jeb Bush had tried anything like it, and Trump easily talked over him. Unlike Bush, Rubio kept hammering, interrupting Trump and getting under his skin. And unlike Bush, who seemed deeply unhappy attacking, Rubio seemed to be having a blast slashing Trump. It all raised a rather uncomfortable question: What if Rubio had gone after Trump earlier, before Trump became the clear frontrunner with Super Tuesday just days away?

Those weren’t Trump’s only bad moments. On Wednesday, Mitt Romney—remember him?—demanded that Trump release his taxes. Asked about that Thursday, Trump responded with an amazing unforced error, saying that he couldn’t yet release them because he was being audited by the IRS, adding that he’s regularly audited. It’s a fascinating admission: Why is Trump regularly audited? Is there some reason the IRS has questions about his returns? Trump was even made to look foolish by lead moderator Wolf Blitzer, who otherwise repeatedly lost control of the debate. Blitzer asked how Trump would cut the federal budget, and Trump mentioned eliminating the Department of Education and the Common Core, cutting environmental regulation, and eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse. Blitzer quickly noted that this would barely make any impact at all on federal spending.

Most of the debate was a three-way melee between Trump, Rubio, and Cruz. Trump had a few good one-liners. "I'm the only one on the stage who's hired people, period,” Trump sniped when Rubio brought up the Polish immigrant labor. “You don’t know a thing about business.” But Rubio generally got the better of Trump, while Trump had only retread insults to lob back. He kept trying to bring up Rubio’s New Hampshire meltdown, but it was a different Rubio on stage in Houston: agile, athletic, ready to improvise. Trump never saw it coming. He was generally supine and—could it be?—low energy. (Other Rubio lines were a bit less effective. He accused Trump of approaching the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as just another transaction: “The Palestinians are not a real-estate deal." But as many a wag pointed out, resolving the conflict sort of is a real-estate deal: After all, the basic dispute is over land.)

Trump did a little better against Cruz. As he has before, Trump assailed Cruz as a liar and harped on how little Cruz’s colleagues in the Senate like him. When Hugh Hewitt, one of the moderators, offered Cruz a chance to say that Trump couldn’t be trusted to nominate Supreme Court justices, Cruz mostly passed on the attack. Yet Trump happily turned around and slammed Cruz for his advocacy for the nomination of Chief Justice John Roberts, whom each called a disaster as a justice.

Rubio didn’t have a perfect night. Early on, moderator María Celeste Arrarás scored a direct hit by asking him about a statement he’d made, in Spanish, on Telemundo, where he said that DACA, President Obama’s plan to allow “DREAMers”—undocumented immigrants brought into the country as children—to stay in the U.S. must end, but that it would be unfair to end it immediately. On Thursday, he insisted he would end it on his first day in office. It was hard not to conclude that Rubio is either saying different things to different audiences or has changed his position.

This debate, like many others, remained sadly deficient on tough policy questions and follow-ups. Blitzer started off the night asking about vows by Trump and Cruz to deport all the immigrants who are illegally in the country, but he never asked either how they would execute that promise, which is uniformly considered fantasy by experts. While Rubio was right to call out Trump for having no health-care plan beyond allowing interstate insurance, there was precious little detail from any other candidate on stage, either. A lengthy discussion of “religious liberty,” mostly served to show the narrow and euphemistic way the term is deployed in Republican discourse, where it mostly applies to Christians: The candidates discussed whether bakers should have to provide cakes to gay weddings, but there was no discussion of Trump’s call to bar Muslim refugees, and perhaps other Muslims, from entering the country.

And, oh yeah, there were those two other guys on stage: John Kasich and Ben Carson. Kasich got the most attention of the two of them, occasionally jutting in to deliver a long, wonky answer, but he was largely shut out of the Trump-Rubio-Cruz fight, which isn’t a good sign for his chances going forward. Carson, never a strong debater, was a particularly spectral presence Thursday, hardly ever getting a word in edgewise and at one point begging to be attacked so he could talk. Carson did, however, manage to coin an incredible phrase when describing his litmus test for Supreme Court nominees: “The fruit salad of their life is what I will look at.” (Your guess is as good as anyone else’s.)

Will Trump’s terrible night make any difference? One rule of thumb so far has been that no matter how Trump performs during these debates, it doesn’t seem to hurt him. In fact, he’s hardly ever done well, though never this poorly. Maybe the concentrated heat of Rubio and Cruz will finally take Trump down a notch. That would be a great relief to the Republican Party establishment, but it would also be a serious indictment. If one debate is all it took, why didn’t Rubio and the rest of the party have the guts to take Trump out earlier, before he did major damage to the Republican brand?

Or maybe Trump will just keep rolling and rack up a series of victories on Tuesday. Stranger things have happened.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

HAPPY2BME

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 05:00:17 am »
Rubio didn’t have a perfect night. Early on, moderator María Celeste Arrarás scored a direct hit by asking him about a statement he’d made, in Spanish, on Telemundo, where he said that DACA, President Obama’s plan to allow “DREAMers”—undocumented immigrants brought into the country as children—to stay in the U.S. must end, but that it would be unfair to end it immediately. On Thursday, he insisted he would end it on his first day in office. It was hard not to conclude that Rubio is either saying different things to different audiences or has changed his position.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2016, 05:03:02 am »
Rubio didn’t have a perfect night. Early on, moderator María Celeste Arrarás scored a direct hit by asking him about a statement he’d made, in Spanish, on Telemundo, where he said that DACA, President Obama’s plan to allow “DREAMers”—undocumented immigrants brought into the country as children—to stay in the U.S. must end, but that it would be unfair to end it immediately. On Thursday, he insisted he would end it on his first day in office. It was hard not to conclude that Rubio is either saying different things to different audiences or has changed his position.

Your guy sucked.  Trump was weak and got bested by both Cruz and Rubio.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2016, 05:05:07 am »
It was rough and tumble for sure, but Trump did well enough to hold his positions, and likely sweep most of the next round of primaries.

The Texas GOP is the next critical path item on the calendar. If Cruz fails to win it, the nomination is all but sealed up.

No amount of secret anti-Trump PACs, secret strategies, etc. will get the job done.

I almost suggested that the anti-Trump factions should start getting close to him, to help win the general.

But I had second thoughts. Trump had better keep a good distance from them, since they have failed, failed, failed. They are utterly inept.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline ABX

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2016, 05:05:15 am »
It wasn't worse than the last debate when he went all 9/11 truther- and his numbers went up. 

I suspect he is already planning his cabinet.


Offline sinkspur

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 05:06:30 am »
Trump on CNN just now saying he has brought in foreign workers for jobs because "you can't get American people" to do the jobs.

The very thing his people rail against, yet Trump does it on a regular basis.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline ABX

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 05:08:07 am »
Trump on CNN just now saying he has brought in foreign workers for jobs because "you can't get American people" to do the jobs.

You hated it with McCain but you'll love it with Trump

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2016, 05:08:41 am »
It was rough and tumble for sure, but Trump did well enough to hold his positions, and likely sweep most of the next round of primaries.

The Texas GOP is the next critical path item on the calendar. If Cruz fails to win it, the nomination is all but sealed up.

No amount of secret anti-Trump PACs, secret strategies, etc. will get the job done.

I almost suggested that the anti-Trump factions should start getting close to him, to help win the general.

But I had second thoughts. Trump had better keep a good distance from them, since they have failed, failed, failed. They are utterly inept.

Trump better start figuring out how he's going to mend fences, because he can't beat Hillary--a very flawed candidate---now.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

HonestJohn

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« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 05:13:36 am by HonestJohn »

HAPPY2BME

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2016, 05:19:13 am »
So far on here, I've counted at least three votes for either Rubio or Cruz.

That has to be a majority.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2016, 05:33:25 am »
Trump better start figuring out how he's going to mend fences, because he can't beat Hillary--a very flawed candidate---now.
You do recognize that the goal of Cruz and Rubio tonight was to rattle Mr. Trump, get under his skin and get an ugly response ??

But he showed good self-control. He took their best shots, and gave back in kind.

We shall learn if the recent Texas polls showing a tie, are correct or outliers.

Trump is still okay even if he doesn't win. Cruz must win, period.

Taking away the risk of a Trump mistake tonight, his odds are now higher than before the debate.

No amount of haggling back and forth all day and night long here for another week alters that in the slightest.


"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline raml

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2016, 05:43:03 am »
In the end I think Rubio will be the loser for it they seem to collect more for Trump every time they attack like this at a debate. I wish they would stop the attacks and debate calmly and with a bit of dignity but I ask for to much. They seem to be able to rip their republican cohorts to bits but when republicans run as a candidate they are sweet and nice to the democrat running. That is where I want to see these attacks not now.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 05:43:43 am by raml »

Offline NavyCanDo

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2016, 05:44:01 am »
Donald: "A deal is a deal".
Marco: "A deal is not a deal when you're dealing with terrorists."



There is not recovery from that one Donald. You were smoked.
A nation that turns away from prayer will ultimately find itself in desperate need of it. :Jonathan Cahn

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2016, 06:42:47 am »
I see they decided to go with the article they wrote before the debate anyway.

Pure wishful thinking

Trump:

No knock out blows, no gaffes which leaves the rest still in Trumps rear view miror

Rubio:

Likable an earnest. Great talker and smooth which will make the GOP ladies swoon but no there there. A human parrot repeating what he was taught to say.

Cruz.

Its over. Cannot campaign with soaring rhetoric and high minded "perfect political purity" talking points only to have the real record be less then perfect. Warp yourself in "holy" white roBes, as Cruz has done, and the politcal dirt of errors shows up darker and more noticeable. Cruz spent all night walking face 1st into the other candidates, specifically Trumps, kill zone.

Biggest knock down punches. After telling everyone he was the best qualified to pick SC Justices, Trump points out Cruz's support for John Roberts, who GOP voters feel should of ended the debate on Obamacare and gay marriage and didn't.

Then Cruz lectures Trump about campaign contributions only to have Trump point out he gave money to Cruz. Three point shot for Trump since it points out Cruz is woefully unprepared, appears to be a hypocrite and it exposes Cruz as a  professional political insider playing this race as a pretend "outsider".

So at best that Rubio/Cruz can claim is a stalemate which is a lose since they are the ones in Trumps rear view mirror.

HAPPY2BME

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2016, 07:18:07 am »

So at best that Rubio/Cruz can claim is a stalemate which is a lose since they are the ones in Trumps rear view mirror.

============================






Offline alicewonders

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2016, 07:19:15 am »
I see they decided to go with the article they wrote before the debate anyway.

Pure wishful thinking

Trump:

No knock out blows, no gaffes which leaves the rest still in Trumps rear view miror

Rubio:

Likable an earnest. Great talker and smooth which will make the GOP ladies swoon but no there there. A human parrot repeating what he was taught to say.

Cruz.

Its over. Cannot campaign with soaring rhetoric and high minded "perfect political purity" talking points only to have the real record be less then perfect. Warp yourself in "holy" white roBes, as Cruz has done, and the politcal dirt of errors shows up darker and more noticeable. Cruz spent all night walking face 1st into the other candidates, specifically Trumps, kill zone.

Biggest knock down punches. After telling everyone he was the best qualified to pick SC Justices, Trump points out Cruz's support for John Roberts, who GOP voters feel should of ended the debate on Obamacare and gay marriage and didn't.

Then Cruz lectures Trump about campaign contributions only to have Trump point out he gave money to Cruz. Three point shot for Trump since it points out Cruz is woefully unprepared, appears to be a hypocrite and it exposes Cruz as a  professional political insider playing this race as a pretend "outsider".

So at best that Rubio/Cruz can claim is a stalemate which is a lose since they are the ones in Trumps rear view mirror.

 :thumbsup:

Don't tread on me.   8888madkitty

We told you Trump would win - bigly!

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2016, 07:21:18 am »
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 07:53:21 am by Once-Ler »

Offline aligncare

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2016, 01:20:47 pm »

Mocking Trump won't work, you got to beat him. And that didn't happen last night.

Their debate performance did nothing but add fuel the narrative that Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are brothers from different mothers.

From his answers during the debate, to his responses to Chris Cuomo's interview questions after the debate, Ted Cruz proved he is establishment.

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2016, 01:39:03 pm »
Mocking Trump won't work, you got to beat him. And that didn't happen last night.

Their debate performance did nothing but add fuel the narrative that Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are brothers from different mothers.

From his answers during the debate, to his responses to Chris Cuomo's interview questions after the debate, Ted Cruz proved he is establishment.

Not only that, when they tired it failed disastrously so

Rubio goes on the  attack in this excited high pitched tone about Trump supposedly lacking specifics in his Health Care plan Rubio ends his tirade sneering "erasing lines around states...what does that even mean?"

Trump then calmly respond by schooling young Rubio on how competition in health insurance would work. I guess we can understand why Rubio would be confused we haven't had real competition in the US Healthcare Insurance system for almost as long as Rubio has been alive. While Trump is making a clear concise case for his plan, Rubio interrupts with "Yes I know all that it is in my plan"

Those kind of exchanges may make political reporter all excited but it leave average voters going "Huh, 30 seconds ago you did not know what it meant NOW it is "part of your plan"?

"Ruibot" earned his unflattering tag again last night. Great as long as he is not forced off script. Once he is forced off script he looks flustered and uncertain. Of the many things voters look for in a President, flustered and uncertain are not two of them.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2016, 02:13:57 pm »
Not only that, when they tired it failed disastrously so

Rubio goes on the  attack in this excited high pitched tone about Trump supposedly lacking specifics in his Health Care plan Rubio ends his tirade sneering "erasing lines around states...what does that even mean?"

Trump then calmly respond by schooling young Rubio on how competition in health insurance would work. I guess we can understand why Rubio would be confused we haven't had real competition in the US Healthcare Insurance system for almost as long as Rubio has been alive. While Trump is making a clear concise case for his plan, Rubio interrupts with "Yes I know all that it is in my plan"

Those kind of exchanges may make political reporter all excited but it leave average voters going "Huh, 30 seconds ago you did not know what it meant NOW it is "part of your plan"?

"Ruibot" earned his unflattering tag again last night. Great as long as he is not forced off script. Once he is forced off script he looks flustered and uncertain. Of the many things voters look for in a President, flustered and uncertain are not two of them.

Are you going to post this on every thread?  Talk about repeating one's self...........
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2016, 02:14:38 pm »
Best line of the night from Rubio:

"Donald inherited millions and is now reduced to selling watches and ties on the Internet."

 In truth, Trump did sell watches: Tacky knockoffs of Tag Monacos, in fact. Tacky knockoffs of the genuine article being a theme in Trump’s life. Made in Thailand, naturally.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 02:16:44 pm by sinkspur »
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Donald Trump's Terrible Night
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2016, 03:00:56 pm »
Trump successfully insulates himself from critiques by employing a very simple strategy: he trades in generalities and catch phrases, which gives opponents nothing specific to criticize. He uses insults and exaggeration as a means of deflection, but also time-consumption. And he depends for support upon people who do not care about details or policy knowledge, but are looking for a strongman who makes promises of greatness.

And that's what we're going to get. At least until the media lets loose in July with everything they are keeping to themselves right now. As Donald would say: trust me, it's gonna be yuuuuuge. Hint: when you spend years bribing crooked politicians, there's a long, long paper trail.   
"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn