Author Topic: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS  (Read 4333 times)

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HAPPY2BME

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Lt. General Michael Flynn testifies on Capitol Hill in 2014. The Army general led the Defense Intelligence Agency before retiring.

Retired Lt. General Michael Flynn, the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency who came up through intelligence positions in Iraq and Afghanistan, says that the George W. Bush administration's Iraq war was a tremendous blunder that helped to create the self-proclaimed Islamic State, or ISIS.

"It was a huge error," Flynn said about the Iraq war in a detailed interview with German newspaper Der Spiegel published Sunday.

"As brutal as Saddam Hussein was, it was a mistake to just eliminate him," Flynn went on to say. "The same is true for Moammar Gadhafi and for Libya, which is now a failed state. The historic lesson is that it was a strategic failure to go into Iraq. History will not be and should not be kind with that decision."

When told by Der Spiegel reporters Matthias Gebauer and Holger Stark that the Islamic State would not "be where it is now without the fall of Baghdad," Flynn, without reservations, said: "Yes, absolutely."

Flynn, who served in the U.S. Army for more than 30 years, also said that the American military response following 9/11 was not well thought-out at all and based on significant misunderstandings.

"When 9/11 occurred, all the emotions took over, and our response was, 'Where did those bastards come from? Let's go kill them. Let's go get them,'" he said.

Instead of determining why the U.S. was attacked by terrorists, Flynn said, the Bush administration was looking at where the terrorists came from and locations to attack.

"Then," Flynn said, "we strategically marched in the wrong direction."

Following the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. invaded Iraq in 2003 based on sketchy evidence presented by the Bush administration that linked weapons of mass destruction and terrorist organization Al Qaeda to former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. The fall of Hussein resulted in chaos and led to a power vacuum in the region that terrorist organizations, like the Islamic State, have taken advantage of.

Flynn acknowledged just how wrongheaded the U.S. approach was as evidenced by the country's release of current Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in late 2004. The Pentagon has said that Baghdadi was arrested earlier that year near Falluja, but was released in December along with a large group of prisoners it deemed to be "low-level."

"We were too dumb. We didn't understand who we had there at that moment," Flynn said.

Flynn, who, before retiring most recently served as head of the Defense Intelligence Agency upon being nominated to the position by President Barack Obama, has also been critical of his former boss' strategy and language surrounding the terrorist group.

In a recent interview with Mehdi Hasan on Al Jazeera's "Head to Head," Flynn took aim at Obama's publicly stated goals to "degrade and ultimately destroy" the Islamic State, saying that while the administration is effectively degrading the organization, the group cannot be "destroyed."

"We may cause it to change its name, but we are never going to destroy this organization," Flynn said. "Destroy means to completely eliminate -- he should not have used those words, those were incorrect words to use and he should have been more precise."

Following the violent attacks in Paris earlier this month, Flynn said that the Obama administration's foreign policy is "amateurish" and has "its own place of responsibility in the mayhem that we are seeing right now."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iraq-war-isis-michael-flynn_us_565c83a9e4b079b2818af89c

HAPPY2BME

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2016, 07:39:03 pm »

FLASHBACK: Bush admits Iraq had no WMDs & had nothing to do with 9/11


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M-ClS5uwNo
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 07:39:30 pm by HAPPY2BME »

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Offline Bigun

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2016, 08:05:11 pm »
Here are a couple of FACTs for you to chew on!

The the U. S. Military never lost a major battle in Vietnam and the war was not lost until the DEMOCRATS in congress cut the legs out from under the South Vietnamese government!

The Iraq war was a military success in every respect until OBAMA and the DEMOCRATS in congress cut the legs out from under it!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 08:53:57 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

HAPPY2BME

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2016, 08:15:46 pm »
Here are a couple of FACTs for you to chew on!

The the U. S. Military never lost a major battle in Vietnam and the war was not lost until the DEMOCRATS in congress cut the legs out from under the South Vietnamese government!

The Iraq war was a military success in every respect until OBAMA and the DEMOCRATS in congress cut the les out from under it!

=====================================

So, you are discounting the testimony of Lt. General Michael Flynn?

Offline flowers

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2016, 08:29:46 pm »



Quote
The Iraq war was a military success in every respect until OBAMA and the DEMOCRATS in congress cut the les out from under it!
That is the truth.


Offline aligncare

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 08:36:19 pm »
=================================

Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS

Retired Lt. General Michael Flynn, the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency who came up through intelligence positions in Iraq and Afghanistan, says that the George W. Bush administration's Iraq war was a tremendous blunder that helped to create the self-proclaimed Islamic State, or ISIS

Problem in America is there is a built-in obfuscation filter, it's called two party politics. There's always somebody or some thing upon whom or upon which to deflect blame.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 08:42:27 pm »
=====================================

So, you are discounting the testimony of Lt. General Michael Flynn?

 I do disagree with him about it being a mistake but not discounting what he says was the overall effect.  I'm just explaining the REASON that it happened! And I seriously doubt that General Flynn would disagree with me!

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline musiclady

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2016, 08:49:26 pm »
Here are a couple of FACTs for you to chew on!

The the U. S. Military never lost a major battle in Vietnam and the war was not lost until the DEMOCRATS in congress cut the legs out from under the South Vietnamese government!

The Iraq war was a military success in every respect until OBAMA and the DEMOCRATS in congress cut the les out from under it!

Absolutely!
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2016, 09:00:37 pm »
Here are a couple of FACTs for you to chew on!

The the U. S. Military never lost a major battle in Vietnam and the war was not lost until the DEMOCRATS in congress cut the legs out from under the South Vietnamese government!

The Iraq war was a military success in every respect until OBAMA and the DEMOCRATS in congress cut the legs out from under it!

There is a distinct difference between a military success and a geopolitical success.  However, after making that distinction, I believe that the powers that be, obtained exactly the geopolitical "success" that they were after.

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2016, 09:01:58 pm »
Problem in America is there is a built-in obfuscation filter, it's called two party politics. There's always somebody or some thing upon whom or upon which to deflect blame.

Exactly, the "two" party system is responsible for a great deal of the colossal mess that this nation has descended into.  (And it ain't accidental, either!)

Offline Bigun

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2016, 09:02:53 pm »
There is a distinct difference between a military success and a geopolitical success.  However, after making that distinction, I believe that the powers that be, obtained exactly the geopolitical "success" that they were after.

OH Yeah! Without a doubt!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2016, 09:10:35 pm »
OH Yeah! Without a doubt!

And, I apologize for not prefacing that with a "As you well know," sir!   :patriot:

Offline Bigun

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2016, 09:16:20 pm »
And, I apologize for not prefacing that with a "As you well know," sir!   :patriot:

LOL! NO need for that at all my friend!  :beer:  :patriot:
 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2016, 09:25:25 pm »
Total nonsense. IF the mission had been finished, not prematurely ended by the Clinton/Obama machine, ISIS would of been exterminated in 2012. All its senior commanders were dead or in jail. The organziation THIS "General" headed projected they were down to only 140 or so fighters.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant


As Islamic State of Iraq, 2006–13
Main article: Islamic State of Iraq
US Marines in Ramadi, May 2006. The Islamic State of Iraq had declared the city to be its capital.

According to a study compiled by United States intelligence agencies in early 2007, the ISI—also known as AQI—planned to seize power in the central and western areas of Iraq and turn it into a Sunni caliphate.[93] The group built in strength and at its height enjoyed a significant presence in the Iraqi governorates of Al Anbar, Diyala and Baghdad, claiming Baqubah as a capital city.[94][95][96][97]

The Iraq War troop surge of 2007 supplied the United States military with more manpower for operations targeting the group, resulting in dozens of high-level AQI members being captured or killed.[98]

Between July and October 2007, al-Qaeda in Iraq was reported to have lost its secure military bases in Al Anbar province and the Baghdad area.[99] During 2008, a series of US and Iraqi offensives managed to drive out AQI-aligned insurgents from their former safe havens, such as the Diyala and Al Anbar governorates, to the area of the northern city of Mosul.[100]

By 2008, the ISI was describing itself as being in a state of "extraordinary crisis".[101] Its violent attempts to govern its territory led to a backlash from Sunni Arab Iraqis and other insurgent groups and a temporary decline in the group, which was attributable to a number of factors,[102] notably the Anbar Awakening.

In late 2009, the commander of US forces in Iraq, General Ray Odierno, stated that the ISI "has transformed significantly in the last two years. What once was dominated by foreign individuals has now become more and more dominated by Iraqi citizens".[103] On 18 April 2010, the ISI's two top leaders, Abu Ayyub al-Masri and Abu Omar al-Baghdadi, were killed in a joint US-Iraqi raid near Tikrit.[104] In a press conference in June 2010, General Odierno reported that 80% of the ISI's top 42 leaders, including recruiters and financiers, had been killed or captured, with only eight remaining at large. He said that they had been cut off from al-Qaeda's leadership in Pakistan.[105][106][107]

On 16 May 2010, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was appointed the new leader of the Islamic State of Iraq.[108][109] Al-Baghdadi replenished the group's leadership, many of whom had been killed or captured, by appointing former Ba'athist military and intelligence officers who had served during Saddam Hussein's rule.[110] These men, nearly all of whom had spent time imprisoned by the US military, came to make up about one third of Baghdadi's top 25 commanders. One of them was a former colonel, Samir al-Khlifawi, also known as Haji Bakr, who became the overall military commander in charge of overseeing the group's operations.[111][112] Al-Khlifawi was instrumental in doing the ground work that led to the growth of ISIL.[113]

In July 2012, al-Baghdadi released an audio statement online announcing that the group was returning to former strongholds from which US troops and the Sons of Iraq had driven them in 2007 and 2008.[114] He also declared the start of a new offensive in Iraq called Breaking the Walls, aimed at freeing members of the group held in Iraqi prisons.[114] Violence in Iraq had begun to escalate in June 2012, primarily with AQI's car bomb attacks, and by July 2013, monthly fatalities exceeded 1,000 for the first time since April 2008.[115

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2016, 09:26:41 pm »

That is the truth.

That is total nonsense. IF the mission had been finished, not prematurely ended by the Clinton/Obama machine, ISIS would of been exterminated in 2012. All its senior commanders were dead or in jail. The organziation THIS "General" headed projected they were down to only 140 or so fighters.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant


As Islamic State of Iraq, 2006–13
Main article: Islamic State of Iraq
US Marines in Ramadi, May 2006. The Islamic State of Iraq had declared the city to be its capital.

According to a study compiled by United States intelligence agencies in early 2007, the ISI—also known as AQI—planned to seize power in the central and western areas of Iraq and turn it into a Sunni caliphate.[93] The group built in strength and at its height enjoyed a significant presence in the Iraqi governorates of Al Anbar, Diyala and Baghdad, claiming Baqubah as a capital city.[94][95][96][97]

The Iraq War troop surge of 2007 supplied the United States military with more manpower for operations targeting the group, resulting in dozens of high-level AQI members being captured or killed.[98]

Between July and October 2007, al-Qaeda in Iraq was reported to have lost its secure military bases in Al Anbar province and the Baghdad area.[99] During 2008, a series of US and Iraqi offensives managed to drive out AQI-aligned insurgents from their former safe havens, such as the Diyala and Al Anbar governorates, to the area of the northern city of Mosul.[100]

By 2008, the ISI was describing itself as being in a state of "extraordinary crisis".[101] Its violent attempts to govern its territory led to a backlash from Sunni Arab Iraqis and other insurgent groups and a temporary decline in the group, which was attributable to a number of factors,[102] notably the Anbar Awakening.

In late 2009, the commander of US forces in Iraq, General Ray Odierno, stated that the ISI "has transformed significantly in the last two years. What once was dominated by foreign individuals has now become more and more dominated by Iraqi citizens".[103] On 18 April 2010, the ISI's two top leaders, Abu Ayyub al-Masri and Abu Omar al-Baghdadi, were killed in a joint US-Iraqi raid near Tikrit.[104] In a press conference in June 2010, General Odierno reported that 80% of the ISI's top 42 leaders, including recruiters and financiers, had been killed or captured, with only eight remaining at large. He said that they had been cut off from al-Qaeda's leadership in Pakistan.[105][106][107]

On 16 May 2010, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was appointed the new leader of the Islamic State of Iraq.[108][109] Al-Baghdadi replenished the group's leadership, many of whom had been killed or captured, by appointing former Ba'athist military and intelligence officers who had served during Saddam Hussein's rule.[110] These men, nearly all of whom had spent time imprisoned by the US military, came to make up about one third of Baghdadi's top 25 commanders. One of them was a former colonel, Samir al-Khlifawi, also known as Haji Bakr, who became the overall military commander in charge of overseeing the group's operations.[111][112] Al-Khlifawi was instrumental in doing the ground work that led to the growth of ISIL.[113]

In July 2012, al-Baghdadi released an audio statement online announcing that the group was returning to former strongholds from which US troops and the Sons of Iraq had driven them in 2007 and 2008.[114] He also declared the start of a new offensive in Iraq called Breaking the Walls, aimed at freeing members of the group held in Iraqi prisons.[114] Violence in Iraq had begun to escalate in June 2012, primarily with AQI's car bomb attacks, and by July 2013, monthly fatalities exceeded 1,000 for the first time since April 2008.[115

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2016, 09:28:33 pm »
=====================================

So, you are discounting the testimony of Lt. General Michael Flynn?

I am dismissing it as the nonsensical posturing of a Politician in a military uniform. The facts are quite different as you can see below.

IF the mission had been finished, not prematurely ended by the Clinton/Obama machine, ISIS would of been exterminated in 2012. All its senior commanders were dead or in jail. The organziation THIS "General" headed projected they were down to only 140 or so fighters.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant


As Islamic State of Iraq, 2006–13
Main article: Islamic State of Iraq
US Marines in Ramadi, May 2006. The Islamic State of Iraq had declared the city to be its capital.

According to a study compiled by United States intelligence agencies in early 2007, the ISI—also known as AQI—planned to seize power in the central and western areas of Iraq and turn it into a Sunni caliphate.[93] The group built in strength and at its height enjoyed a significant presence in the Iraqi governorates of Al Anbar, Diyala and Baghdad, claiming Baqubah as a capital city.[94][95][96][97]

The Iraq War troop surge of 2007 supplied the United States military with more manpower for operations targeting the group, resulting in dozens of high-level AQI members being captured or killed.[98]

Between July and October 2007, al-Qaeda in Iraq was reported to have lost its secure military bases in Al Anbar province and the Baghdad area.[99] During 2008, a series of US and Iraqi offensives managed to drive out AQI-aligned insurgents from their former safe havens, such as the Diyala and Al Anbar governorates, to the area of the northern city of Mosul.[100]

By 2008, the ISI was describing itself as being in a state of "extraordinary crisis".[101] Its violent attempts to govern its territory led to a backlash from Sunni Arab Iraqis and other insurgent groups and a temporary decline in the group, which was attributable to a number of factors,[102] notably the Anbar Awakening.

In late 2009, the commander of US forces in Iraq, General Ray Odierno, stated that the ISI "has transformed significantly in the last two years. What once was dominated by foreign individuals has now become more and more dominated by Iraqi citizens".[103] On 18 April 2010, the ISI's two top leaders, Abu Ayyub al-Masri and Abu Omar al-Baghdadi, were killed in a joint US-Iraqi raid near Tikrit.[104] In a press conference in June 2010, General Odierno reported that 80% of the ISI's top 42 leaders, including recruiters and financiers, had been killed or captured, with only eight remaining at large. He said that they had been cut off from al-Qaeda's leadership in Pakistan.[105][106][107]

On 16 May 2010, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was appointed the new leader of the Islamic State of Iraq.[108][109] Al-Baghdadi replenished the group's leadership, many of whom had been killed or captured, by appointing former Ba'athist military and intelligence officers who had served during Saddam Hussein's rule.[110] These men, nearly all of whom had spent time imprisoned by the US military, came to make up about one third of Baghdadi's top 25 commanders. One of them was a former colonel, Samir al-Khlifawi, also known as Haji Bakr, who became the overall military commander in charge of overseeing the group's operations.[111][112] Al-Khlifawi was instrumental in doing the ground work that led to the growth of ISIL.[113]

In July 2012, al-Baghdadi released an audio statement online announcing that the group was returning to former strongholds from which US troops and the Sons of Iraq had driven them in 2007 and 2008.[114] He also declared the start of a new offensive in Iraq called Breaking the Walls, aimed at freeing members of the group held in Iraqi prisons.[114] Violence in Iraq had begun to escalate in June 2012, primarily with AQI's car bomb attacks, and by July 2013, monthly fatalities exceeded 1,000 for the first time since April 2008.[115

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2016, 09:54:07 pm »
Exactly, the "two" party system is responsible for a great deal of the colossal mess that this nation has descended into.  (And it ain't accidental, either!)

I'm not getting your point.  Other than allowing the deflecting of blame, back and forth, how is the two-party system responsible?

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2016, 10:51:30 pm »
I'm not getting your point.  Other than allowing the deflecting of blame, back and forth, how is the two-party system responsible?

I've posted this a couple of times in the past.  I think that it is very illustrative of my point.

Quote
"But either party in office over time becomes corrupt, tired, unenterprising, and vigorless.  Then it should be possible to replace it, every four years if necessary, by the other party, which will be none of these things but will still pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policies."

-- p. 1248, Carroll Quigley, Tragedy & Hope, First Edition, First Printing, 1966

Prefacing that from the prior page:


Quote
"The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinaire and academic thinkers.  Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy."

-- p. 1247-8, Carroll Quigley, Tragedy & Hope, First Edition, First Printing, 1966

Many have probably heard of Professor Quigley (one of Bill Clinton's closest mentors from Georgetown) when he and his writings were discussed in the 1970s (e.g., The Naked Capitalist) and later when Glenn Beck brought them to light in his Overton Window book.

Quigley had very close relationships with the power brokers of his time, he used these relationships to discover a great deal of the philosophies and motivations of these people.  He used this knowledge to document much of it in his written work, even though he found himself at odds with some of it, especially over time.  He is certainly a controversial figure (at times vigorously denounced by the both the "left" and the "right"), but if you take the time to read some of his work, you will see the profound genius (and ability to synthesize like no other) that he had in understanding and documenting the history of civilization.

The excerpts above represent the thinking of the power elites at the time.

I sometimes bring them up to provide some context to the question, "How come the only difference between the two parties seems to be their written platforms (that merely gather dust for four years between conventions) and the rhetoric that they use to attract our votes?"

It isn't an accident.

And to further the point, Sanguine, having the voting public neatly divided into two distinct (and very loyal) camps will always provide cover from at least half of the population for whatever the global elite desires.  Take as an example, the low-grade perpetual war that we have been engaged in for well over a decade.  When it is conducted under a Republican administration, they will have roughly half of the nation supporting it because "our guys" are running the show.  Then follow it to a Democrat administration conducting approximately the same policies, again roughly half of the nation supports because "our guys" are running the show.

Offline Carling

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2016, 11:10:15 pm »
We can go back and forth on whether overthrowing Saddam was a mistake, but the fact is you can't unring that bell.

ISIS today is 100% a product of Obama keeping a campaign promise by getting troops out of Iraq and creating the vacuum that led to ISIS.  It's why I found Trump's criticism of Bush to be so stupid.  The point he should have made was that he was against the war, great, fine, but that Obama called ISIS the JV team and pulled out the troops that could have stopped them from growing.

It's been a bad handful of days for Trump.
Trump has created a cult and looks more and more like Hitler every day.
-----------------------------------------------

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2016, 11:18:28 pm »
Excellent contribution, katz. Discussion of ideas is a beautiful thing. Hating my family, friends, coworkers and neighbors because they vote for democrats would be bizarre. Yet some say they hate democrats.

They were democrats and republicans who died on the battlefields of Europe, North Africa, the Pacific islands and southeast Asia.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 11:19:33 pm by aligncare »

Offline flowers

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2016, 11:25:00 pm »
Quote
We can go back and forth on whether overthrowing Saddam was a mistake, but the fact is you can't unring that bell.
   :beer:


HAPPY2BME

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2016, 11:52:24 pm »
We can go back and forth on whether overthrowing Saddam was a mistake, but the fact is you can't unring that bell.

ISIS today is 100% a product of Obama keeping a campaign promise by getting troops out of Iraq and creating the vacuum that led to ISIS.  It's why I found Trump's criticism of Bush to be so stupid.  The point he should have made was that he was against the war, great, fine, but that Obama called ISIS the JV team and pulled out the troops that could have stopped them from growing.

It's been a bad handful of days for Trump.

====================================

The GOP Is Finally Debating Bush-Era Failures

Dissenting Republicans and conservatives have been saying some version of them for the last fifteen years, and on some issues for much longer than that, but party and movement leaders weren’t interested in hearing any of it. On the contrary, they were determined to squelch internal debate and demonize those that made awkward and embarrassing criticisms of Bush and his allies from the right.

..

Offline aligncare

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2016, 12:34:19 am »
====================================

The GOP Is Finally Debating Bush-Era Failures

Dissenting Republicans and conservatives have been saying some version of them for the last fifteen years, and on some issues for much longer than that, but party and movement leaders weren’t interested in hearing any of it. On the contrary, they were determined to squelch internal debate and demonize those that made awkward and embarrassing criticisms of Bush and his allies from the right.

..

Trump is showing the way; you can break the silence on political 3rd rail topics and not only survive, but thrive.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2016, 12:38:39 am »
I've posted this a couple of times in the past.  I think that it is very illustrative of my point.

-- p. 1248, Carroll Quigley, Tragedy & Hope, First Edition, First Printing, 1966

Prefacing that from the prior page:


-- p. 1247-8, Carroll Quigley, Tragedy & Hope, First Edition, First Printing, 1966

Many have probably heard of Professor Quigley (one of Bill Clinton's closest mentors from Georgetown) when he and his writings were discussed in the 1970s (e.g., The Naked Capitalist) and later when Glenn Beck brought them to light in his Overton Window book.

Quigley had very close relationships with the power brokers of his time, he used these relationships to discover a great deal of the philosophies and motivations of these people.  He used this knowledge to document much of it in his written work, even though he found himself at odds with some of it, especially over time.  He is certainly a controversial figure (at times vigorously denounced by the both the "left" and the "right"), but if you take the time to read some of his work, you will see the profound genius (and ability to synthesize like no other) that he had in understanding and documenting the history of civilization.

The excerpts above represent the thinking of the power elites at the time.

I sometimes bring them up to provide some context to the question, "How come the only difference between the two parties seems to be their written platforms (that merely gather dust for four years between conventions) and the rhetoric that they use to attract our votes?"

It isn't an accident.

And to further the point, Sanguine, having the voting public neatly divided into two distinct (and very loyal) camps will always provide cover from at least half of the population for whatever the global elite desires.  Take as an example, the low-grade perpetual war that we have been engaged in for well over a decade.  When it is conducted under a Republican administration, they will have roughly half of the nation supporting it because "our guys" are running the show.  Then follow it to a Democrat administration conducting approximately the same policies, again roughly half of the nation supports because "our guys" are running the show.

Very interesting.  I've got some reading to do.  Thanks, Katz.