Author Topic: Live Thread>>New Hampshire Results>>The First Votes of the New Hampshire Primary Have Been Cast  (Read 15105 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Mine too.  To me,  that's an even bigger scandal than her e-mail server.  So many of the donations to the Clinton Foundation came from foreigners seeking to buy influence.   It is not unreasonable to question Clinton's patriotism.

Trump donated $100K to it.
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Offline truth_seeker

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"... and results" is not a factor.

In fact, the exact opposite is the truth.

The two leading candidates have no record (to speak of) related to the duties of the office they seek, and since they have no record, and all that's driving their support is rhetoric, there are no "results" to gauge the candidate by.

If you never swing a bat at a baseball, you never strike out.

You can however, become an expert on (and a critic of) the batting records of others.

So now, you can stand somewhere in that stadium and tell others how you would have hit that ball out of the park, right after the actual batter struck out.

That's Trump and Cruz right there, in a nutshell

Perceived results. Trump says a lady got killed in San Fran by an illegal convict our system failed to deport, and he is going to fix that.

Establishment candidates recite one more time, their failed plans. Establishment candidates have been running things all along, and people think the system is broken.

You don't hire the people you think broke the system, to fix and keep running the system.

I stopped ridiculing people that view the situation that way awhile back. They make sense to me.

When firms have a downturn, and bring in a "turnaround" expert, it is rarely an insider. They want somebody from outside to shake things up.

Trump tells people that he intends to shake things up, and that sounds good.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Scottftlc

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Well, the "establishment" and people who decide on who to vote for based on a resume and not on fiery speeches and braggadocio.

But I guess that being a pro-life, pro Second Amendment fiscal conservative who believes in reducing the size and scope of government no longer qualifies someone as a conservative.

Go figure.

I have been as critical of Bush as any - well, that's probably an overstatement, I'm sure I've been outdone on that - and I agree that he is conservative and he had successes as Florida's governor.  Hell, he might be the very best of the Bushes as a "conservative" for that matter (that is one problem right there but for later).

He might have been great in the 80's or 90's. But he, like his family, is very out of touch with the state of the country.  We have been immigration-ed and refugee-ed to death...literally to death.  The influx is killing this country just like Europe may be coming to realize it is killing them.  It is not racism. It wouldn't matter if they were white, green, red or chartreuse Martians.  We cannot solve the world's problems, including their population issues.  And we are killing our country by trying to take in mass immigration as a safety valve for poor, destitute lands that are not solving their own problems.  Oh, and by the way, our greedy Chamber of Commerce sees cheap labor - and our own companies and small businesses can't make ends meet without it because we've piled impossible regulations, paperwork, taxes and requirements on them, mostly by our desire to be Green.  And that is killing us.

On both of these major problems, Jeb is completely out of touch.  He's out of touch with our economy and he's out of touch with the social change at the community level from the mass influx of poor immigrants that we cannot assimilate.  To top it off, he's the candidate of the big donor - the people this nation, left and right, are rejecting as part of the cabal that got us to this place in the last 20 years or so.

And then finally, his name is "Bush."  The family of two presidents that were both complete and utter failures.  How he can't see those optics I don't understand (maybe he does but he wants to ignore them and hope everyone else in the country can't see it because he is as narcissistic and power hungry as he claims others are).

Finally, ideology is yesterday for "conservatives."  Can someone point out where "conservatism" has a majority, or even a significant plurality?  Where are the success stories...no mark that, where on earth has it even ever been given the opportunity to have success?  Conservatism is a red herring...or maybe it's the Great Pumpkin.  Republicans chase conservatism - and conservatism NEVER wins, it never even appears.  It doesn't get off the drawing board.  It is a meaningless, empty platitude.  That is all it is today.  It is not a governing philosophy - to be a governing philosophy it has to actually govern somewhere.  It never has...even during the golden years of Reagan, it only had bits and pieces.  So perhaps we ought to ditch that idea and find something that can actually work in a pragmatic world.
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Offline Sanguine

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Mine too.  To me,  that's an even bigger scandal than her e-mail server.  So many of the donations to the Clinton Foundation came from foreigners seeking to buy influence.   It is not unreasonable to question Clinton's patriotism.

Isn't part of the FBI probe for espionage? 

Offline aligncare

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Trump donated $100K to it.

I'm not sure, but if anyone is willing to check, I would bet the Bushes also contributed.

Online Bigun

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Isn't part of the FBI probe for espionage?

I don't know whether it is or not but I sure want to believe it is.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline aligncare

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...that's the point! That's the system everyone at the grassroots wants gone, (R) and (D). We are all working to dismantle it. Trump, as a smart businessman, used that system to his business advantage--but dislikes it and wants it gone, as businessmen tend to do. Cruz takes superPAC money--but, also wants the system gone.

Offline MACVSOG68

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I have been as critical of Bush as any - well, that's probably an overstatement, I'm sure I've been outdone on that - and I agree that he is conservative and he had successes as Florida's governor.  Hell, he might be the very best of the Bushes as a "conservative" for that matter (that is one problem right there but for later).

 
Finally, ideology is yesterday for "conservatives."  Can someone point out where "conservatism" has a majority, or even a significant plurality?  Where are the success stories...no mark that, where on earth has it even ever been given the opportunity to have success?  Conservatism is a red herring...or maybe it's the Great Pumpkin.  Republicans chase conservatism - and conservatism NEVER wins, it never even appears.  It doesn't get off the drawing board.  It is a meaningless, empty platitude.  That is all it is today.  It is not a governing philosophy - to be a governing philosophy it has to actually govern somewhere.  It never has...even during the golden years of Reagan, it only had bits and pieces.  So perhaps we ought to ditch that idea and find something that can actually work in a pragmatic world.

I think Bush hurt himself not because of his ideas so much as his presentation.  The optics control everything.  As to whether conservatism has been reflected in successes, one has to decide what it really is today.  Conservatism in its most basic form is a "no contest" in battling liberalism for the popularity prize.  It's job is not to prevent change, but to slow it down.  A conservative wants to look ahead to address the potential problems in the future; the liberal wants to move ahead at warp speed, Obamacare being a prime example.  The liberal wants to give you everything; the conservative wants you to earn it.  Tamping down on such "progress" isn't going to win any popularity contests.

But today, the philosophy of reaction has replaced conservatism in many ways.  We want to turn back the clock on much of what has become accepted today culturally and politically.  We don't want to try and slow down the progressive policies; we want to turn them back to an earlier time.  People will never refer to themselves as reactionaries, so they redefine the traditional concept of conservatism to meet their goals.  It's the popularity of both Trump and Cruz, for better or worse.  And now, the term conservative has taken on far more negative connotations than ever.  Today's 'conservatives' are branded by the left as racists, anti-environment, haters of women and the poor.  And on the right side of the aisle those who want to govern by traditional conservative principles are branded as RINOs and liberals at best.  JMHO of course.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline sinkspur

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Perceived results. Trump says a lady got killed in San Fran by an illegal convict our system failed to deport, and he is going to fix that.

Establishment candidates recite one more time, their failed plans. Establishment candidates have been running things all along, and people think the system is broken.

You don't hire the people you think broke the system, to fix and keep running the system.

I stopped ridiculing people that view the situation that way awhile back. They make sense to me.

When firms have a downturn, and bring in a "turnaround" expert, it is rarely an insider. They want somebody from outside to shake things up.

Trump tells people that he intends to shake things up, and that sounds good.

Except Trump is not a turnaround expert.

He's as big a proponent of big government helping him get what he wants for his business as anybody in the country.

How does someone who benefited as much as he has shake up the very system whose palms he's greased?
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I'm not sure, but if anyone is willing to check, I would bet the Bushes also contributed.

Do more than make a worthless bet and come up with some evidence.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I have been as critical of Bush as any - well, that's probably an overstatement, I'm sure I've been outdone on that - and I agree that he is conservative and he had successes as Florida's governor.  Hell, he might be the very best of the Bushes as a "conservative" for that matter (that is one problem right there but for later).

He might have been great in the 80's or 90's. But he, like his family, is very out of touch with the state of the country.  We have been immigration-ed and refugee-ed to death...literally to death.  The influx is killing this country just like Europe may be coming to realize it is killing them.  It is not racism. It wouldn't matter if they were white, green, red or chartreuse Martians.  We cannot solve the world's problems, including their population issues.  And we are killing our country by trying to take in mass immigration as a safety valve for poor, destitute lands that are not solving their own problems.  Oh, and by the way, our greedy Chamber of Commerce sees cheap labor - and our own companies and small businesses can't make ends meet without it because we've piled impossible regulations, paperwork, taxes and requirements on them, mostly by our desire to be Green.  And that is killing us.

On both of these major problems, Jeb is completely out of touch.  He's out of touch with our economy and he's out of touch with the social change at the community level from the mass influx of poor immigrants that we cannot assimilate.  To top it off, he's the candidate of the big donor - the people this nation, left and right, are rejecting as part of the cabal that got us to this place in the last 20 years or so.

And then finally, his name is "Bush."  The family of two presidents that were both complete and utter failures.  How he can't see those optics I don't understand (maybe he does but he wants to ignore them and hope everyone else in the country can't see it because he is as narcissistic and power hungry as he claims others are).

Finally, ideology is yesterday for "conservatives."  Can someone point out where "conservatism" has a majority, or even a significant plurality?  Where are the success stories...no mark that, where on earth has it even ever been given the opportunity to have success?  Conservatism is a red herring...or maybe it's the Great Pumpkin.  Republicans chase conservatism - and conservatism NEVER wins, it never even appears.  It doesn't get off the drawing board.  It is a meaningless, empty platitude.  That is all it is today.  It is not a governing philosophy - to be a governing philosophy it has to actually govern somewhere.  It never has...even during the golden years of Reagan, it only had bits and pieces.  So perhaps we ought to ditch that idea and find something that can actually work in a pragmatic world.

Jeb is far from out of touch on immigration. The problem is that people have a predetermined opinion on Jeb, and they assign that opinion on who he is to him.

Read this book... published in 2014:

http://www.amazon.com/Immigration-Wars-Forging-American-Solution/dp/1476713464

Here a few salient points:

Reduce family-based visas: Bush wants to make it easier for spouses and minor children of those in the U.S. to get visas. However, he also wants to bar siblings, parents, and adult children of those in the U.S. from applying for family-based admission, which would significantly reduce the numbers of immigrants allowed in because of family ties.

He wants States to have a greater say so on which immigrants receive government services.

He wants to give State and local authorities more power to enforce immigration laws.

He wants to get rid of the current "diversity" method of picking who gets to migrate to the US and replace it with something more traditional

He would grant legal statues to a certain number of illegals already in the country, but not citizenship... something that he and Ted Cruz agree on.

He wants to use microchips and biometric data to track visitors to the US in order to control visa overstayers

More enforcement against employers who hire illegals

Bush would provide more border security through increasing real and virtual fencing, drones, and border agents. He'd extend Homeland Security's authority to the 50 national parks that are within 100 miles of the border. Finally, he'd authorize the president to deploy military and the National Guard to secure the border.

That's all in the book.

There are things that some may object to, like increasing the number of H1B visas, but only when that workforce benefits the nation. He wants to do a brain drain on the world and bring them here.

He would grant citizenship to DREAMers.

Not a bad plan, but most people will find something that they disagree with and discard the whole thing along with the candidate.

I've never met anyone with whom I've agreed with on every single issue.

Finally, the last name.

To me, not voting for a person based on his last name makes about as much sense as voting for one because of the color of their skin, or their gender.

Then again, that's where we are as a country these days.

Benito Mussolini is smiling.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Luis wrote:

Quote
Jeb is far from out of touch on immigration. The problem is that people have a predetermined opinion on Jeb, and they assign that opinion on who he is to him.

Read this book... published in 2014:

Well summarized.  Most of that was in the 2013 bill co-sponsored by Rubio, while that and more was in the 2007 Kennedy-McCain bill.  Both required the border security initiatives be addressed before any legalization.  But apparently we are better off with the chaos of today.  Still, ten years from now some will still be criticizing any efforts at immigration saying "but all we have to do is enforce the laws we have on the books".
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Free Vulcan

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My problem with the Bush family is that they tend to sound fine when they campaign, but when they get to office they get very, very squishy and moderate, letting the Dems have way too much running room. Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 07:57:59 pm by Free Vulcan »
The Republic is lost.

HonestJohn

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Little Jebbie spent $36 million in New Hampshire for exactly ZERO delegates!

The establishment REALLY REALLY wants little Jebbie!

I'd say they wanted him 6 months ago... and he stockpiled that cash.

Nowadays, they'd prefer Rubio, but Bush still has all the stockpiled cash.  And a bruised ego.

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I'd say they wanted him 6 months ago... and he stockpiled that cash.

Nowadays, they'd prefer Rubio, but Bush still has all the stockpiled cash.  And a bruised ego.

Which will get him what exactly?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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If you never swing a bat at a baseball, you never strike out.



The hell you don't.   :laugh:

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Offline EdinVA

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My problem with the Bush family is that they tend to sound fine when they campaign, but when they get to office they get very, very squishy and moderate, letting the Dems have way too much running room. Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice...

You nailed it FV... the same thing applies to ALL the mainstream GOP elephants, that is why the "rebels" are getting so much attention.

Offline EdinVA

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The hell you don't.   :laugh:

If you never try, you never fail....

Online Bigun

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Quote
If you never swing a bat at a baseball, you never strike out.
The hell you don't.   :laugh:

If you never swing the bat you strike out more than anyone!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

HonestJohn

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Which will get him what exactly?

The ability to tear down everyone not named Cruz or Trump.  It won't get him any votes, much like how Christie's attacks didn't.

But he'll be able to vent his spleen and 'make 'em suffer'.

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Fox reporting Christie is officially out and so is Carly
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Online Bigun

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The ability to tear down everyone not named Cruz or Trump.  It won't get him any votes, much like how Christie's attacks didn't.

But he'll be able to vent his spleen and 'make 'em suffer'.

OK! I agree with that!  :beer:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Fox reporting Christie is officially out and so is Carly

Good riddance to Christie but I think Carly got the shaft and I doubt we have heard the last of her.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Paladin

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Good riddance to Christie but I think Carly got the shaft and I doubt we have heard the last of her.

I hope not. She might be considered for VP but far more likely whoever is the GOP nominee will pick Kasich because of the importance of OH. Carly would be a good pick for a cabinet post, however.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 08:24:45 pm by Paladin »
Members of the anti-Trump cabal: Now that Mr Trump has sewn up the nomination, I want you to know I feel your pain.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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My problem with the Bush family is that they tend to sound fine when they campaign, but when they get to office they get very, very squishy and moderate, letting the Dems have way too much running room. Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice...

The image of what the Presidency is to far too many people is completely wrong. The POTUS is not supposed to be an ideologue with a sledgehammer and high ground with which to pound any specific ideology into the whole of the people. He's not. He's supposed to be the POTUS of all of the people, not just aprt of the people. I would have gladly taken eight more years of GWB over eight years of Obama.

GHW Bush was crucified for his broken pledge, yet it was that broken pledge that helped bring about the balanced budget and sound economy we experienced during the Clinton years, and that Clinton took credit for.It was Clinton that signed the law into lace which both inflated the Real Estate market out of control and brought it crashing down.

George W. Bush was the right person for the time, but we allowed the left to demonize him over a dirty, nasty war that needed, and still needs, to be fought.

People are shallow and they don't think much, and they support (or oppose) candidates for absurd reasons.

 
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx