Author Topic: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA  (Read 3739 times)

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Offline Dexter

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Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« on: October 09, 2015, 01:53:01 am »
http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2015/10/homosexuality-may-be-caused-chemical-modifications-dna?&utm_source=sciencenow&utm_medium=facebook-text&utm_campaign=homosexuality-217_2015-10-08

“Baby, I was born this way,” Lady Gaga sang in a 2011 hit that quickly became a gay anthem. Indeed, over the past 2 decades, researchers have turned up considerable evidence that homosexuality isn't a lifestyle choice, but is rooted in a person's biology and at least in part determined by genetics. Yet actual “gay genes” have been elusive. A new study of male twins, scheduled for presentation at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) in Baltimore, Maryland, today, could help explain that paradox. It finds that epigenetic effects, chemical modifications of the human genome that alter gene activity without changing the DNA sequence, may have a major influence on sexual orientation. The new work, from Eric Vilain's lab at the University of California (UC), Los Angeles, is “exciting” and “long overdue,” says William Rice, an evolutionary geneticist at UC Santa Barbara, who proposed in 2012 that epigenetics plays a role in sexual orientation. But Rice and others caution that the research is still preliminary and based on a small sample.
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2015, 10:05:41 pm »
Well, so is cancer.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2015, 10:10:58 pm »
They keep trying, don't they?  Can't find the imaginary 'gay gene' so they make something else up......
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Oceander

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2015, 01:19:54 am »
They keep trying, don't they?  Can't find the imaginary 'gay gene' so they make something else up......

epigenetic effects are very real.  Exposure to certain chemicals while a woman is pregnant will not only cause birth defects in her child, but can also cause birth defects in that child's own children due to the fact that the chemical works by binding to certain sites on DNA, thereby altering the DNA's actions (e.g., shutting it down so it can no longer be copied to form proteins).

This study sounds like it could be really interesting.

Heterosexuality is just as much a lifestyle choice:  whether one will act on one's urges or not.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 01:20:59 am by Oceander »

Offline musiclady

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2015, 02:41:26 am »
epigenetic effects are very real.  Exposure to certain chemicals while a woman is pregnant will not only cause birth defects in her child, but can also cause birth defects in that child's own children due to the fact that the chemical works by binding to certain sites on DNA, thereby altering the DNA's actions (e.g., shutting it down so it can no longer be copied to form proteins).

This study sounds like it could be really interesting.

Heterosexuality is just as much a lifestyle choice:  whether one will act on one's urges or not.

As I said, they keep trying........ and some keep hoping they'll actually prove something to support what is an aberration of human behavior, and only in a tiny percentage of humans, most of whom have had some trauma in their past to exacerbate their abnormality.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Oceander

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2015, 02:48:20 am »
As I said, they keep trying........ and some keep hoping they'll actually prove something to support what is an aberration of human behavior, and only in a tiny percentage of humans, most of whom have had some trauma in their past to exacerbate their abnormality.

You sound just like the old Soviet apparatchiks who decided that political disagreement with communism was an aberration of normal human behaviour, to be treated as a psychiatric illness.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2015, 02:51:43 am »
You sound just like the old Soviet apparatchiks who decided that political disagreement with communism was an aberration of normal human behaviour, to be treated as a psychiatric illness.

You sound like you're desperate to make your point.  Desperate enough to make extremely idiotic ad hominems that have no basis in reality and which make you look really, really, really foolish.....

You can squeeze all you want, but you can't make what's abnormal, normal, nor aberrant behavior healthy.

Good night, Oceander.  :seeya:
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 02:52:19 am by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Oceander

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2015, 02:59:56 am »
You sound like you're desperate to make your point.  Desperate enough to make extremely idiotic ad hominems that have no basis in reality and which make you look really, really, really foolish.....

You can squeeze all you want, but you can't make what's abnormal, normal, nor aberrant behavior healthy.

Good night, Oceander.  :seeya:


/snicker


You can't face the fact that there might be a biological basis for something that you simply hate.


I think I'll go with Dick Cheney's view on the matter, at least the views he articulated in 2000:

Quote
‘Freedom Means Freedom for Everybody.’

by Jim Geraghty

Dick Cheney, when asked about gay marriage, back in the 2000 vice-presidential debate

The fact of the matter is, we live in a free society and freedom means freedom for everybody. We don’t get to choose, and shouldn’t be able to choose, and say, “You get to live free, but you don’t.”

And I think that means that people should be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to enter into. It’s really no one else’s business in terms of trying to regulate or prohibit behavior in that regard.

The next step then, of course, is the question you asked of whether or not there ought to be some kind of official sanction, if you will, of the relationship or if these relationships should be treated the same way a conventional marriage is. That’s a tougher problem. That’s not a slam dunk.

I think the fact of the matter, of course, is that matter is regulated by the states. I think different states are likely to come to different conclusions and that’s appropriate. I don’t think there should necessarily be a federal policy in this area.

I try to be open-minded about it as much as I can and tolerant of those relationships.

And like Joe [Lieberman], I also wrestle with the extent to which there ought to be legal sanction of those relationships. I think we ought to do everything we can to tolerate and accommodate whatever kind of relationships people want to enter into.


*  *  *


Lordy but that's a breath of fresh air.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 03:01:17 am by Oceander »

Offline aligncare

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2015, 03:18:39 am »


"I think the fact of the matter, of course, is that matter is regulated by the states. I think different states are likely to come to different conclusions and that’s appropriate. I don’t think there should necessarily be a federal policy in this area."


When Chaney said this the Supreme Court hadn't yet seized the matter from the states, so off went the clerk to jail. So much for the first and 10th amendments.

Oceander

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2015, 03:20:43 am »

"I think the fact of the matter, of course, is that matter is regulated by the states. I think different states are likely to come to different conclusions and that’s appropriate. I don’t think there should necessarily be a federal policy in this area."


When Chaney said this the Supreme Court hadn't yet seized the matter from the states, so off went the clerk to jail. So much for the first and 10th amendments.

That clerk went to jail because she refused to do her job.  Quite honestly, if she were a muslim who worked at the DMV and suddenly decided to stop issuing licenses to women because under her religious beliefs women shouldn't drive, everyone here would be damning her for putting her religion above her duty to do her job.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2015, 03:26:46 am »
Just a final note to Oceander......

You seem like a very nice person, but for some reason any discussion of this issue turns you into a very mean fellow.

I was discussing the issue, and you attacked me personally for my views.

Think about it........... and stop being irrational.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Oceander

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2015, 03:39:33 am »
Just a final note to Oceander......

You seem like a very nice person, but for some reason any discussion of this issue turns you into a very mean fellow.

I was discussing the issue, and you attacked me personally for my views.

Think about it........... and stop being irrational.


I do think about it.  In fact, I get to know people qua people, and not as representatives of this or that category, and, having dated a girl in college who was in the theatre arts department, and now having lived in NYC for 12 years, I've met quite a few gay people, and I can tell you for a fact, a cold, hard, fact, that being homosexual is not just some lifestyle choice, to be made the same way one decides to choose chocolate or strawberry ice cream.  I can also tell you for a fact, a cold, hard, fact, that most of the people I know are good people who simply want to live their own lives by their own lights, without having others getting in their faces and denying them common courtesies because they're gay.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2015, 02:51:48 pm »

I do think about it.  In fact, I get to know people qua people, and not as representatives of this or that category, and, having dated a girl in college who was in the theatre arts department, and now having lived in NYC for 12 years, I've met quite a few gay people, and I can tell you for a fact, a cold, hard, fact, that being homosexual is not just some lifestyle choice, to be made the same way one decides to choose chocolate or strawberry ice cream.  I can also tell you for a fact, a cold, hard, fact, that most of the people I know are good people who simply want to live their own lives by their own lights, without having others getting in their faces and denying them common courtesies because they're gay.

Where did I say that attraction to people of the same sex was a 'choice?'  (Answer: I didn't.  It was you who said that heterosexuality was a choice.  I said nothing about a lifestyle choice either way).

There's a reason you reacted in anger when I said that 'they keep trying,' but it clearly had nothing to do with what I actually said or think.  I have no idea why you react so viscerally against me, but this is not the first time you have behaved in a very irrational manner to things I have said and it needs to stop.

Some thoughts:

For a long time we were told there was a 'gay gene,' when there was not.  Now they are trying out something, which probably will prove to be false.  My problem with modern 'studies' is that they are not objective (i.e concerned with 'facts').  They are trying to prove a point, because of a belief system, and that creates false studies and skewed results.  We've seen that in spades with scientific 'research' on climate change.  Now there is desperation to prove that homosexuality is 'normal,' when it is not. 

You make some troubling assumptions based on your disdain for me personally (at least my belief in moral law), and you don't read what I say, or think about it beyond an emotional reaction........ and I'm going to try to clear up your errors as plainly as I can to help prevent your eruptions on further thread.

This is what I believe, based on moral law, observation, and the love of Christ in me:

Homosexuals are most likely not 'born that way.'  They most likely have had some trauma in their lives that took a normal childhood attraction to someone of the same sex (most of us have had a 'crush' on an elementary teacher or coach of the same sex) and distorted it.   They may have abuse in their childhood, or most likely neglect.  They may have an absent father, or one who doesn't have time for them.  Some may be pushed by cultural stereotypes into relationships with those of the same sex.  For example, our culture teaches that boys cannot cry easily, be sensitive, be musical or artistic, must be athletic, etc.  Girls who are athletic or aggressive are looked down upon, and are frequently not seen as attractive to 'boys.'.....

There are a myriad of psychological reasons that may drive people to homosexuality, but that is not the normal human condition.  We are heterosexual beings, and in our sin, either way, we are loved by God, and we are commanded to love each other, even though we don't condone each other's behaviors.

Now as to 'choice.'  BOTH homosexual and heterosexual behavior is choice.  Whether or not one's 'orientation' goes toward attraction to the same or opposite sex, one makes a choice to act on those feelings.  Because of that, each of us is responsible for the behavior we choose.  It's not thrust upon us to be permissive because of our 'orientation' one way or the other, but the way we choose to behave is our own responsibility.  As a Christian, I believe that only heterosexual sex within marriage is moral.  That leaves most of the sex going on now outside the will of God, and were I to hate everyone having sex outside of marriage, I would be disobedient to God's law.

Now as to your very wrong assumptions about how I feel about the people who are sinners, one way or the other.  I am a sinner too, forgiven only by God's grace.  I do not condemn others for being sinners, nor do I treat others wrongly because they are sinners, just as I am.  I am commanded to love others, and I try to do that (though it's tough with some people).  I had a doctor who cheated on his wife and had several affairs after that.  I did not treat him any differently even though he was outside of God's law.

I do not treat the homosexuals I know any differently than I treat heterosexuals.  (In fact, some of the ones I know are the sweetest people on the face of the earth).   I do not in any way condone harsh treatment of homosexuals, nor do I think of them as 'lesser' people.   Your assumption that I get in anyone's face, or deny them common courtesy is ludicrous and mean.  Do I deny people in heterosexual relationships outside God's plan 'common courtesy?'  What a hateful thing to assume of me.

At any rate, should this subject come up and should we both be on the same thread, I would hope in the future that you think about your response to me..... keep your emotional personal attacks (Soviet apparatchiks??  Are you freaking KIDDING me??) and false assumptions (that I hate and deny 'facts) out of it, no matter what the origin of your bias is...... and try discussing the issue without personally condemning and attacking me simply because I disagree with you.

Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2015, 03:34:42 pm »
Where did I say that attraction to people of the same sex was a 'choice?'  (Answer: I didn't.  It was you who said that heterosexuality was a choice.  I said nothing about a lifestyle choice either way).

There's a reason you reacted in anger when I said that 'they keep trying,' but it clearly had nothing to do with what I actually said or think.  I have no idea why you react so viscerally against me, but this is not the first time you have behaved in a very irrational manner to things I have said and it needs to stop.

Some thoughts:

For a long time we were told there was a 'gay gene,' when there was not.  Now they are trying out something, which probably will prove to be false.  My problem with modern 'studies' is that they are not objective (i.e concerned with 'facts').  They are trying to prove a point, because of a belief system, and that creates false studies and skewed results.  We've seen that in spades with scientific 'research' on climate change.  Now there is desperation to prove that homosexuality is 'normal,' when it is not. 

You make some troubling assumptions based on your disdain for me personally (at least my belief in moral law), and you don't read what I say, or think about it beyond an emotional reaction........ and I'm going to try to clear up your errors as plainly as I can to help prevent your eruptions on further thread.

This is what I believe, based on moral law, observation, and the love of Christ in me:

Homosexuals are most likely not 'born that way.'  They most likely have had some trauma in their lives that took a normal childhood attraction to someone of the same sex (most of us have had a 'crush' on an elementary teacher or coach of the same sex) and distorted it.   They may have abuse in their childhood, or most likely neglect.  They may have an absent father, or one who doesn't have time for them.  Some may be pushed by cultural stereotypes into relationships with those of the same sex.  For example, our culture teaches that boys cannot cry easily, be sensitive, be musical or artistic, must be athletic, etc.  Girls who are athletic or aggressive are looked down upon, and are frequently not seen as attractive to 'boys.'.....

There are a myriad of psychological reasons that may drive people to homosexuality, but that is not the normal human condition.  We are heterosexual beings, and in our sin, either way, we are loved by God, and we are commanded to love each other, even though we don't condone each other's behaviors.

Now as to 'choice.'  BOTH homosexual and heterosexual behavior is choice.  Whether or not one's 'orientation' goes toward attraction to the same or opposite sex, one makes a choice to act on those feelings.  Because of that, each of us is responsible for the behavior we choose.  It's not thrust upon us to be permissive because of our 'orientation' one way or the other, but the way we choose to behave is our own responsibility.  As a Christian, I believe that only heterosexual sex within marriage is moral.  That leaves most of the sex going on now outside the will of God, and were I to hate everyone having sex outside of marriage, I would be disobedient to God's law.

Now as to your very wrong assumptions about how I feel about the people who are sinners, one way or the other.  I am a sinner too, forgiven only by God's grace.  I do not condemn others for being sinners, nor do I treat others wrongly because they are sinners, just as I am.  I am commanded to love others, and I try to do that (though it's tough with some people).  I had a doctor who cheated on his wife and had several affairs after that.  I did not treat him any differently even though he was outside of God's law.

I do not treat the homosexuals I know any differently than I treat heterosexuals.  (In fact, some of the ones I know are the sweetest people on the face of the earth).   I do not in any way condone harsh treatment of homosexuals, nor do I think of them as 'lesser' people.   Your assumption that I get in anyone's face, or deny them common courtesy is ludicrous and mean.  Do I deny people in heterosexual relationships outside God's plan 'common courtesy?'  What a hateful thing to assume of me.

At any rate, should this subject come up and should we both be on the same thread, I would hope in the future that you think about your response to me..... keep your emotional personal attacks (Soviet apparatchiks??  Are you freaking KIDDING me??) and false assumptions (that I hate and deny 'facts) out of it, no matter what the origin of your bias is...... and try discussing the issue without personally condemning and attacking me simply because I disagree with you.
Thank you so much for this.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2015, 03:46:47 pm »
Thank you so much for this.

You're welcome, jmyrlefuller.

I hope it sheds light on some very nasty assumptions made against those of us who believe in a moral law.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2015, 04:32:36 pm »
I am with Barry Goldwater and Dick Cheney, on this issue. From times when "conservatism" didn't need to be redefined, to accommodate a Trump for example.

Our nation was founded on the principle of personal freedom, including freedom from government and from church encroachment into our personal lives.

The same churches that now wish to delegitimize homosexuals, once upheld human slavery, and then continued to support discrimination and segregation. Historically these same elements sought to delegitimize Jews, Catholics, immigrants.

The Bible, in all of its forms, translations, chapter inclusions and exclusions, is nonetheless NOT the governing document, or even an appendix to our nation's or its states' laws.

People that would have it be otherwise, are busybodies. Far too many come in forms like Josh Duggar, Ted Haggard, John Schmitz*. Be gone. Concern yourselves with your own life, and the lives of your own family members. Leave others alone.

* Schmitz is an interesting one, from another era. A "conservative" icon. A 3rd party traveler, from the land of Benny Hinn.

While pontificating to others from his "high principles" (i.e.. "moral laws) he was actually fathering children out of wedlock, that he would not even financially support.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_G._Schmitz
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Offline PzLdr

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2015, 03:46:07 am »
"Chemical modifications": Gerbil saliva?
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Offline Paladin

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2015, 03:57:58 am »
That clerk went to jail because she refused to do her job.  Quite honestly, if she were a muslim who worked at the DMV and suddenly decided to stop issuing licenses to women because under her religious beliefs women shouldn't drive, everyone here would be damning her for putting her religion above her duty to do her job.

Oceander, why do you find it necessary to make such sweeping and unsupported generalizations in order to promote your positions? You actually have no idea how "everyone here" would react to such a situation beyond your own prejudices.
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2015, 04:02:35 am »
Wow, they are desperately grabbing. They can't find a gene, so they try to make it mutations by chemical influences. Makes their case a great deal weaker.
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2015, 01:05:58 pm »
Where did I say that attraction to people of the same sex was a 'choice?'  (Answer: I didn't.  It was you who said that heterosexuality was a choice.  I said nothing about a lifestyle choice either way).

There's a reason you reacted in anger when I said that 'they keep trying,' but it clearly had nothing to do with what I actually said or think.  I have no idea why you react so viscerally against me, but this is not the first time you have behaved in a very irrational manner to things I have said and it needs to stop.

Some thoughts:

For a long time we were told there was a 'gay gene,' when there was not.  Now they are trying out something, which probably will prove to be false.  My problem with modern 'studies' is that they are not objective (i.e concerned with 'facts').  They are trying to prove a point, because of a belief system, and that creates false studies and skewed results.  We've seen that in spades with scientific 'research' on climate change.  Now there is desperation to prove that homosexuality is 'normal,' when it is not. 

You make some troubling assumptions based on your disdain for me personally (at least my belief in moral law), and you don't read what I say, or think about it beyond an emotional reaction........ and I'm going to try to clear up your errors as plainly as I can to help prevent your eruptions on further thread.

This is what I believe, based on moral law, observation, and the love of Christ in me:

Homosexuals are most likely not 'born that way.'  They most likely have had some trauma in their lives that took a normal childhood attraction to someone of the same sex (most of us have had a 'crush' on an elementary teacher or coach of the same sex) and distorted it.   They may have abuse in their childhood, or most likely neglect.  They may have an absent father, or one who doesn't have time for them.  Some may be pushed by cultural stereotypes into relationships with those of the same sex.  For example, our culture teaches that boys cannot cry easily, be sensitive, be musical or artistic, must be athletic, etc.  Girls who are athletic or aggressive are looked down upon, and are frequently not seen as attractive to 'boys.'.....

There are a myriad of psychological reasons that may drive people to homosexuality, but that is not the normal human condition.  We are heterosexual beings, and in our sin, either way, we are loved by God, and we are commanded to love each other, even though we don't condone each other's behaviors.

Now as to 'choice.'  BOTH homosexual and heterosexual behavior is choice.  Whether or not one's 'orientation' goes toward attraction to the same or opposite sex, one makes a choice to act on those feelings.  Because of that, each of us is responsible for the behavior we choose.  It's not thrust upon us to be permissive because of our 'orientation' one way or the other, but the way we choose to behave is our own responsibility.  As a Christian, I believe that only heterosexual sex within marriage is moral.  That leaves most of the sex going on now outside the will of God, and were I to hate everyone having sex outside of marriage, I would be disobedient to God's law.

Now as to your very wrong assumptions about how I feel about the people who are sinners, one way or the other.  I am a sinner too, forgiven only by God's grace.  I do not condemn others for being sinners, nor do I treat others wrongly because they are sinners, just as I am.  I am commanded to love others, and I try to do that (though it's tough with some people).  I had a doctor who cheated on his wife and had several affairs after that.  I did not treat him any differently even though he was outside of God's law.

I do not treat the homosexuals I know any differently than I treat heterosexuals.  (In fact, some of the ones I know are the sweetest people on the face of the earth).   I do not in any way condone harsh treatment of homosexuals, nor do I think of them as 'lesser' people.   Your assumption that I get in anyone's face, or deny them common courtesy is ludicrous and mean.  Do I deny people in heterosexual relationships outside God's plan 'common courtesy?'  What a hateful thing to assume of me.

At any rate, should this subject come up and should we both be on the same thread, I would hope in the future that you think about your response to me..... keep your emotional personal attacks (Soviet apparatchiks??  Are you freaking KIDDING me??) and false assumptions (that I hate and deny 'facts) out of it, no matter what the origin of your bias is...... and try discussing the issue without personally condemning and attacking me simply because I disagree with you.

A cogent case for how individuals of all faiths should interact with the world; with love and compassion.  :beer:

Offline musiclady

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2015, 01:18:16 pm »
A cogent case for how individuals of all faiths should interact with the world; with love and compassion.  :beer:

Thank you, kind sir!

The example is given for us in the Person of Jesus Christ.  I was just reading the passage of Scripture regarding the Samaritan woman at the well.  He offered her Living Water, and treated her with utmost respect and love.

If only we, His followers, could do the same.......   
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Oceander

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2015, 12:49:18 am »
Where did I say that attraction to people of the same sex was a 'choice?'  (Answer: I didn't.  It was you who said that heterosexuality was a choice.  I said nothing about a lifestyle choice either way).

There's a reason you reacted in anger when I said that 'they keep trying,' but it clearly had nothing to do with what I actually said or think.  I have no idea why you react so viscerally against me, but this is not the first time you have behaved in a very irrational manner to things I have said and it needs to stop.

Some thoughts:

For a long time we were told there was a 'gay gene,' when there was not.  Now they are trying out something, which probably will prove to be false.  My problem with modern 'studies' is that they are not objective (i.e concerned with 'facts').  They are trying to prove a point, because of a belief system, and that creates false studies and skewed results.  We've seen that in spades with scientific 'research' on climate change.  Now there is desperation to prove that homosexuality is 'normal,' when it is not. 

You make some troubling assumptions based on your disdain for me personally (at least my belief in moral law), and you don't read what I say, or think about it beyond an emotional reaction........ and I'm going to try to clear up your errors as plainly as I can to help prevent your eruptions on further thread.

This is what I believe, based on moral law, observation, and the love of Christ in me:

Homosexuals are most likely not 'born that way.'  They most likely have had some trauma in their lives that took a normal childhood attraction to someone of the same sex (most of us have had a 'crush' on an elementary teacher or coach of the same sex) and distorted it.   They may have abuse in their childhood, or most likely neglect.  They may have an absent father, or one who doesn't have time for them.  Some may be pushed by cultural stereotypes into relationships with those of the same sex.  For example, our culture teaches that boys cannot cry easily, be sensitive, be musical or artistic, must be athletic, etc.  Girls who are athletic or aggressive are looked down upon, and are frequently not seen as attractive to 'boys.'.....

There are a myriad of psychological reasons that may drive people to homosexuality, but that is not the normal human condition.  We are heterosexual beings, and in our sin, either way, we are loved by God, and we are commanded to love each other, even though we don't condone each other's behaviors.

Now as to 'choice.'  BOTH homosexual and heterosexual behavior is choice.  Whether or not one's 'orientation' goes toward attraction to the same or opposite sex, one makes a choice to act on those feelings.  Because of that, each of us is responsible for the behavior we choose.  It's not thrust upon us to be permissive because of our 'orientation' one way or the other, but the way we choose to behave is our own responsibility.  As a Christian, I believe that only heterosexual sex within marriage is moral.  That leaves most of the sex going on now outside the will of God, and were I to hate everyone having sex outside of marriage, I would be disobedient to God's law.

Now as to your very wrong assumptions about how I feel about the people who are sinners, one way or the other.  I am a sinner too, forgiven only by God's grace.  I do not condemn others for being sinners, nor do I treat others wrongly because they are sinners, just as I am.  I am commanded to love others, and I try to do that (though it's tough with some people).  I had a doctor who cheated on his wife and had several affairs after that.  I did not treat him any differently even though he was outside of God's law.

I do not treat the homosexuals I know any differently than I treat heterosexuals.  (In fact, some of the ones I know are the sweetest people on the face of the earth).   I do not in any way condone harsh treatment of homosexuals, nor do I think of them as 'lesser' people.   Your assumption that I get in anyone's face, or deny them common courtesy is ludicrous and mean.  Do I deny people in heterosexual relationships outside God's plan 'common courtesy?'  What a hateful thing to assume of me.

At any rate, should this subject come up and should we both be on the same thread, I would hope in the future that you think about your response to me..... keep your emotional personal attacks (Soviet apparatchiks??  Are you freaking KIDDING me??) and false assumptions (that I hate and deny 'facts) out of it, no matter what the origin of your bias is...... and try discussing the issue without personally condemning and attacking me simply because I disagree with you.




No.  What bothers me is your antediluvian hatred not based in any facts whatsoever.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2015, 01:40:33 am »
My randomish thoughts on the subject:

1.  I just don't care.  I try to sometimes, but I don't. 

2. I won't tell you about my sex life if you won't tell me about yours. 

3. As a committed and practicing Christian, I understand that the practice of unmarried sex is not in accordance with God's instructions and wishes for any of us.  As are a number of things we humans seem to be unable or unwilling to quit doing.  I hope that my homosexual friends come to know God and do God's will, just as I hope that for all of us.  Being human, I mostly hope for me, maybe because I am aware of how much of God's help I need.

4. I thought we knew, and have known for a long time, that congenital conditions can affect sexuality - too much androgen now, a dash too little estrogen here, and the wrong amount of testosterone there can have a life-long effect on a person's physical and mental characteristics.  Part of what makes us all a bit different from the next one.

5. I would not wish the hypersexualized homosexual lifestyle on anyone.  It's difficult.  It's hard enough being "cis-normal" as we were intended to be.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2015, 01:53:54 am »

No.  What bothers me is your antediluvian hatred not based in any facts whatsoever.

A fascinating display of your own hatred, in spite of your obvious realization that I do not hate anyone.

I'm sorry you are so intransigent, Oceander.  I really thought more highly of you than this.


Unfortunately, I now know better, and will have to ignore your vile attacks.

It's too bad, because you're intelligent, and otherwise rational.

What a waste of a good mind.    **nononono*

(Incidentally.... your chronology is off.  Jesus lived after the flood, not before.  ^-^  Oh............. and so did the Soviets!)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 01:32:56 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Homosexuality may be caused by chemical modifications to DNA
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2015, 02:18:11 am »
Why is it that conservatives -- who will often be the first to point out (accurately) that genes and inheritance can affect human characteristics from IQ to personality to eye color -- will become defensive when it's suggested that those same factors may affect one's sexuality, as well?