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Et Tu, John Yoo?
« on: August 24, 2015, 12:36:04 pm »
http://www.nationalreview.com/node/422960/print

 Et Tu, John Yoo?
By John C. Eastman — August 24, 2015

Birthright citizenship has exploded into the national discourse. The issue is generating a lot of heat on the Republican side of the aisle in particular, because it threatens to expose the long-standing rift between the party’s base and its pro-crony-capitalism establishment.

Unfortunately, in arguing that the 14th Amendment requires citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants, some of the more prominent interlocutors are promoting an incorrect understanding of history. The Wall Street Journal’s recent editorial on the matter is a case in point, and my good friend John Yoo’s NR essay repeats one of the same basic flaws.

The first clause of the 14th Amendment provides that “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” The Journal thinks the meaning is “straightforward”: “Subject to the jurisdiction” covers everyone born on U.S. soil (except the children of diplomats and invading armies), because “‘jurisdiction’ defines the territory where the force of law applies and to whom — and this principle is well settled to include almost everyone within U.S. borders, regardless of their home country or the circumstances of their birth.” It then states: “By the circular restrictionist logic, illegal immigrants could not be prosecuted for committing crimes because they are not U.S. citizens.”

Professor Yoo makes the same claim (absent the ad hominem word “restrictionist”): “Almost all aliens in the United States, even citizens of other nations, still fall within our jurisdiction while they are in our territory: Otherwise they could commit crimes of all sorts without fear of punishment.”

This claim plays off a widespread ignorance about the meaning of the word “jurisdiction.” It fails to recognize that the same word covers two distinctly different ideas: 1) complete, political jurisdiction; and 2) partial, territorial jurisdiction.

Think of it this way. When a British tourist visits the United States, he subjects himself to our laws as long as he remains within our borders. He must drive on the right side of the road, for example. He is subject to our partial, territorial jurisdiction, but he does not thereby subject himself to our complete, political jurisdiction. He does not get to vote, or serve on a jury; he cannot be drafted into our armed forces; and he cannot be prosecuted for treason if he takes up arms against us, because he owes us no allegiance. He is merely a “temporary sojourner,” to use the language employed by those who wrote the 14th Amendment, and not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States in the full and complete sense intended by that language in the 14th Amendment.

The same is true for those who are in this country illegally. They are subject to our laws by their presence within our borders, but they are not subject to the more complete jurisdiction envisioned by the 14th Amendment as a precondition for automatic citizenship. It is just silliness to contend, as the Journal does, that this is “circular restrictionist logic” that would prevent illegal immigrants from being “prosecuted for committing crimes because they are not U.S. citizens.”

Moreover, contrary to Professor Yoo’s contention, the text elsewhere in the 14th Amendment supports this distinction. Unlike the Citizenship Clause, which uses the phrase “subject to the jurisdiction,” the Equal Protection Clause bars a state from “deny[ing] to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” (Emphasis added.) The phrase “within its jurisdiction” is territorial, whereas the phrase “subject to the jurisdiction” is political.

There were no restrictions on immigration in 1868 when the 14th Amendment was being drafted and ratified, so there was no debate on whether the Citizenship Clause confers automatic citizenship on the children of illegal immigrants. But we do have debate on the analogous circumstance of Native Americans who continued to owe allegiance to their tribes. One senator — exhibiting the same confusion today exhibited by the Journal — asked Senator Lyman Trumbull, a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the 14th Amendment, whether Indians living on reservations would be covered by the clause, since they were “most clearly subject to our jurisdiction, both civil and military.”

Trumbull responded that “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States meant subject to its “complete” jurisdiction, “not owing allegiance to anybody else.” And Senator Jacob Howard, who introduced the language of the jurisdiction clause on the floor of the Senate, contended that it should be construed to mean “a full and complete jurisdiction,” “the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now” — that is, under the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which the 14th Amendment was intended to codify. That act made the point even more clearly: “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States.” (Emphasis added.) As the debate over the 14th Amendment makes clear, the shift in language from the 1866 Civil Rights Act to what became the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment was not intended to provide citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants, but rather to shift away from the “not subject to any foreign power” language out of recognition that the Indian tribes were not foreign powers but domestic (albeit dependent) powers. As Senator Howard explained, the Citizenship Clause excludes not only Indians but “persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, [or] who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.”

The leading treatise writer of the day, Thomas Cooley, confirmed this was the understanding of the 14th Amendment. As he wrote in his treatise, The General Principles of Constitutional Law in America, “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States “meant full and complete jurisdiction to which citizens are generally subject, and not any qualified and partial jurisdiction, such as may consist with allegiance to some other government.”

When the Supreme Court first addressed the Citizenship Clause in the 1873 Slaughterhouse Cases, both the majority and dissenting opinions recognized this same understanding. The majority in that case correctly noted that the “main purpose” of the clause “was to establish the citizenship of the negro” and that “the phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” (Emphasis added).

That language in Slaughterhouse was dicta (a comment not strictly relevant to the decision), but it became holding a decade later in the 1884 case of Elk v. Wilkins. The Supreme Court held in that case that the claimant — a Native American born on a tribal reservation — was not a citizen because he was not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States at birth, which required that he be “not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance.” Elk did not meet the jurisdictional test because, as a member of an Indian tribe at his birth, he “owed immediate allegiance to” his tribe and not to the United States. Although “Indian tribes, being within the territorial limits of the United States, were not, strictly speaking, foreign states,” “they were alien nations, distinct political communities,” according to the Court, thereby making clear that its holding was about allegiance and not the reservation’s geographic territory. Then, drawing explicitly on the language of the 1866 Civil Rights Act from which the 14th Amendment was drawn, the Court continued: “Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States, members of, and owing immediate allegiance to, one of the Indian tribes (an alien though dependent power), although in a geographical sense born in the United States, are no more ‘born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,’ within the meaning of the first section of the fourteenth amendment, than the children of subjects of any foreign government born within the domain of that government, or the children born within the United States, of ambassadors or other public ministers of foreign nations.”

Professor Yoo is therefore simply mistaken in his claim that “the Supreme Court has consistently read Section One as granting birthright citizenship to the children of aliens on U.S. territory.” In fact, it has never held that the children born on U.S. soil to parents who are in this country illegally are citizens. In the 1898 case of Wong Kim Ark, the Court simply held that a child born of Chinese immigrants who were lawfully and permanently in the United States — “domiciled” here, to use the Court’s phrase — was a citizen. Language in the opinion that can be read as suggesting that birth on U.S. soil alone, no matter what the circumstances, confers automatic citizenship is pure dicta, because no claim was at issue in the case other than whether the child of lawful, permanent residents was a citizen.

Professor Yoo’s contention to the contrary overlooks the Court’s use of the word “domiciled” in describing the nature of Wong Kim Ark’s relationship to the United States. “Domicile” is a legal term of art; it means “a person’s legal home,” according to Black’s law dictionary, and is often used synonymously with “citizenship.” Wong Kim Ark’s parents were not allowed to become citizens because the U.S. had entered into a nefarious treaty with the Emperor of China that refused to recognize their natural right to emigrate, but they were “domiciled” in the United States, which is to say, lawfully present in the United States. The holding of the case, as opposed to its broader dicta, does not mandate citizenship for children born to those who are unlawfully present in the United States, and it does not even mandate citizenship for those who are visiting the United States temporarily but lawfully. In both cases, the children, through their parents, retain allegiance to their parents’ home country — to a “foreign power,” to return to the language of the 1866 Civil Rights Act. They are therefore not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States in the way intended by the 14th Amendment, and therefore not automatic citizens.

As I said, no Supreme Court case has held otherwise. Wong Kim Ark did not so hold. Neither did Plyler v. Doe in 1982, contrary to the Journal’s assertion; the relevant language in that case is simply a footnote for comparison with the Equal Protection Clause, and pure dicta.

Professor Yoo’s description of the debate between Senators Cowan and Conness likewise misses the point. Cowan asked whether the Citizenship Clause would confer citizenship upon the children of Chinese parents who were living in California, or the children of Gypsies living in Pennsylvania. “Have they any more rights than a sojourner in the United States?” he asked. He was attempting to draw a distinction based on race or ethnic background, not on lawful versus unlawful presence in the United States, or even on permanent versus temporary presence. It was for that reason that Conness began his reply by stating that he failed to see what relation Cowan’s question had to do with the Citizenship Clause.

Conness then responded that automatic citizenship would be available to the “children begotten of Chinese parents in California” just as existed under existing law — that is, the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which extended citizenship to “all persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power.” That guarantee was available no matter the ethnic background of the parents — we were not extending citizenship only to the descendants of white Europeans — but his response did not suggest that the children of those who were not lawfully present in the United States, or who were mere temporary visitors, would be automatic citizens. Indeed, Cowan’s own question — “Have [the children of Chinese or Gypsies domiciled in the United States] any more rights than a sojourner?” — demonstrates that he was also aware of the distinction between territorial and political jurisdiction. For the debate to support Professor Yoo’s position, Conness would have had to respond that even the children of sojourners would be entitled to automatic citizenship. There is not a hint in his response to suggest such an answer, nor in any other part of the entire debate.

So, truth be told, the 14th Amendment does not need to be repealed in order to fix the problem of birthright citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants. It just needs to be understood and applied correctly. The Journal’s contention that conservatives who insist upon this understanding of the law “are promising a GOP version of President Obama’s ‘illegal amnesty order’” could therefore not be further from the truth. Constitutional originalism requires that we give effect to the public meaning of the words actually used, even if the Wall Street Journal would wish the meaning were otherwise. And the Journal’s further contention that anyone who wishes to see the 14th Amendment faithfully applied is claiming “that some people are not real Americans and have no right to be,” is simply another ad hominem attack and mischaracterization not worthy of an otherwise great newspaper.

Finally, let me close with some agreement with Professor Yoo’s soaring rhetoric at the end of his piece, much of which is entirely true. Yes, “rather than being a misguided act of generosity, the 14th Amendment marks one of the great achievements of the Republican party.” And yes, “It was the Republican party that opposed Dred Scott.” And yes, “It was the Republican Party that fought and won the Civil War.” And definitely yes, “it was the Republican party that drafted and ratified the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments, which did away with slavery and any distinction between Americans based on race.”

But the 14th Amendment did not do away with sovereignty. It did not do away with the importance of citizenship, or with the idea, rooted in the Declaration of Independence, that legitimate governments are grounded on the consent of the governed. Birthright citizenship, as currently practiced, allows those who continue to owe allegiance to a foreign power to demand American citizenship for their children, unilaterally and as a result of their illegal conduct. Those who oppose such an abuse do not support Dred Scott. They are drawing distinctions based not on race, but on the rule of law.

Professor Yoo need not worry, therefore, that applying the 14th Amendment faithfully would “discard one of the greatest attributes of American exceptionalism.” The welcome mat to American citizenship is open to anyone in the world regardless of race or ethnic background, as long as they adhere to the legal rules set out by Congress for immigration to this country.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 01:05:41 pm »
Well! There you have it! The 14th amendment does not confer citizenship on the children of illegals and never has!

And I think we should include this!

John C. Eastman is the Henry Salvatori Professor of Law & Community Service and former dean at Chapman University School of Law. He also serves as the director of the Claremont Institute’s Center for Constitutional Jurisprudence.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 01:08:43 pm by Bigun »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 01:38:50 pm »
Subtle difference that the author misses:

Here's the legal definition of jurisdiction:

Quote
Jurisdiction
definition

Power of a court to adjudicate cases and issue orders.
Territory within which a court or government agency may properly exercise its power.

So as that legal term applies to whether or not we can draft a tourist, we can, but once the tourist's complaint reaches a Court, that Court has the power to issue an order countering the government's misguided attempt at drafting a foreign national into the U.S. armed forces.

Here's the XIV Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.

So then, any person (a person's a person, no matter how small) that is born or granted citizenship by act of Congress (naturalized) within a geographical territory where U.S. Courts or government agencies have the power to adjudicate cases and/or issue orders, is a citizen.

The right (or privilege) to vote is strictly reserved for citizens of the United States (XV Amendment) so a tourist can try to vote, but if he raised a complaint about not being allowed to vote, the Court would have the power (jurisdiction) to deny the request.

The definition of treason is "the crime of betraying one's own country" so this not being the tourist's own country, it's silly to even bring up that point, BUT if that tourist did something that an American citizen would be charged with treason for (espionage, attacks on the population, infrastructure, government, etc) the pertinent government agencies and Courts have the power to arrest, charge, sentence and discharge the sentence.

John Yoo and Ted Cruz are right on this.   
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 01:39:54 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 01:52:09 pm »
Think of it this way. When a British tourist visits the United States, he subjects himself to our laws as long as he remains within our borders. He must drive on the right side of the road, for example. He is subject to our partial, territorial jurisdiction, but he does not thereby subject himself to our complete, political jurisdiction. He does not get to vote, or serve on a jury; he cannot be drafted into our armed forces; and he cannot be prosecuted for treason if he takes up arms against us, because he owes us no allegiance. He is merely a “temporary sojourner,” to use the language employed by those who wrote the 14th Amendment, and not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States in the full and complete sense intended by that language in the 14th Amendment.

A brilliant essay making perfectly clear how the 14th amendment was never intended to extend citizenship to children of those here illegally.

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2015, 01:55:52 pm »
Think of it this way. When a British tourist visits the United States, he subjects himself to our laws as long as he remains within our borders. He must drive on the right side of the road, for example. He is subject to our partial, territorial jurisdiction, but he does not thereby subject himself to our complete, political jurisdiction. He does not get to vote, or serve on a jury; he cannot be drafted into our armed forces; and he cannot be prosecuted for treason if he takes up arms against us, because he owes us no allegiance. He is merely a “temporary sojourner,” to use the language employed by those who wrote the 14th Amendment, and not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States in the full and complete sense intended by that language in the 14th Amendment.

A brilliant essay making perfectly clear how the 14th amendment was never intended to extend citizenship to children of those here illegally.

This all needs to be settled one way or the other in court.  Has it ever been tried?  I suspect the courts would go with Yoo but I'm not a lawyer.

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2015, 01:56:15 pm »
Of course, amateur constitutional scholars will try to come up with all sorts of slippery legalese excuses why the amendment does something as ludicrous as giving away citizenship to, let's call them, tourists.

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2015, 02:02:41 pm »
Quote
The right (or privilege) to vote is strictly reserved for citizens of the United States (XV Amendment) so a tourist can try to vote, but if he raised a complaint about not being allowed to vote, the Court would have the power (jurisdiction) to deny the request.
That's a silly comparison. By saying "the court has the jurisdiction to deny the request" you basically render the entire clause meaningless. Anyone in the world bringing a petition before the court would be in the same "jurisdiction" under that interpretation. It does not make their children eligible for U.S. citizenship.

Congress has the right to determine the foreign nationals over whom it will exercise jurisdiction on U.S. soil. Consider the Necessary and Proper Clause, and Congress's duty to protect the country from invasion—which is the fundamental issue here.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2015, 02:29:31 pm »
That's a silly comparison. By saying "the court has the jurisdiction to deny the request" you basically render the entire clause meaningless. Anyone in the world bringing a petition before the court would be in the same "jurisdiction" under that interpretation. It does not make their children eligible for U.S. citizenship.

Congress has the right to determine the foreign nationals over whom it will exercise jurisdiction on U.S. soil. Consider the Necessary and Proper Clause, and Congress's duty to protect the country from invasion—which is the fundamental issue here.

The point is that a tourist can try to vote, and if they do they will be (should be) turned away...these days, it's hard to tell. Their recourse would be to file a law suit, and the Court would deny them because they have legal jurisdiction to render a verdict.

The difference being that the only people who wold be denied the voe by the Court would be non-U.S. citizen, ergo that tourist. The children of illegal aliens would currently be allowed to vote.

Whether this could be legally termed an "invasion" is questionable. We do have the right to control our borders, which as Ted Cruz points out, is the real problem here, not the XIV Amendment, but the term "invasion" as used by the Necessary and Proper Clause, applies to an armed invasion, not what at the time of the drafting of the Constitution would have simply been the traditional migratory patterns of the native inhabitants of that portion of the country.

We have a tendency to play fast and loose with definitions as they suit our case.

We are embroiled in the Latin roots and meaning of the word "jurisdiction" to prove one point, then we also want to assign a modern definition to "invasion" to describe that migratory patterns by native Americans  that preexisted both the nation and the Constitution.

P.S. The Courts take from citizens the ability to vote by way of finding them guilty of a felony.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2015, 02:32:26 pm »
Of course, amateur constitutional scholars will try to come up with all sorts of slippery legalese excuses why the amendment does something as ludicrous as giving away citizenship to, let's call them, tourists.

John Yoo and Ted Cruz are amateur Constitutional scholars?

Or does my employment also take from me the ability to cast an opinion favoring the opinion of opposing Constitutional scholars on this issue?

Who are you lately?
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2015, 02:32:59 pm »
Think of it this way. When a British tourist visits the United States, he subjects himself to our laws as long as he remains within our borders. He must drive on the right side of the road, for example. He is subject to our partial, territorial jurisdiction, but he does not thereby subject himself to our complete, political jurisdiction. He does not get to vote, or serve on a jury; he cannot be drafted into our armed forces; and he cannot be prosecuted for treason if he takes up arms against us, because he owes us no allegiance. He is merely a “temporary sojourner,” to use the language employed by those who wrote the 14th Amendment, and not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States in the full and complete sense intended by that language in the 14th Amendment.

A brilliant essay making perfectly clear how the 14th amendment was never intended to extend citizenship to children of those here illegally.

Wow, another amateur Constitutional scholar is heard from.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 02:36:09 pm »
This all needs to be settled one way or the other in court.  Has it ever been tried?  I suspect the courts would go with Yoo but I'm not a lawyer.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2015, 02:54:54 pm »
Wow, another amateur Constitutional scholar is heard from.

No, I am simply deferring to John C. Eastman's obvious expertise.

Unlike you, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the Internet.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 03:11:04 pm »
No, I am simply deferring to John C. Eastman's obvious expertise.

Unlike you, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the Internet.

And I deferred to John  Yoo's and Ted Cruz's obvious expertise and agreed with them.

What is it, you get to defer to your expert and I have to abide by your opinion of who's opinion is the most Constitutionally-sound opinion?

Doesn't that make you the ultimate Constitutional scholar here?
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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2015, 06:38:11 pm »
And I deferred to John  Yoo's and Ted Cruz's obvious expertise and agreed with them.

What is it, you get to defer to your expert and I have to abide by your opinion of who's opinion is the most Constitutionally-sound opinion?

Doesn't that make you the ultimate Constitutional scholar here?

John C. Eastman, Ed Meese, Edward J. Erler, PA. Madison, Mark Levin, Andrew J. McCarthy and many other actual legal scholars are all wrong and LUIS is right!

You bet!
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2015, 06:50:55 pm »
Sen. Jacob Howard, perhaps the most significant and relevant framer – the author of the Citizenship Clause, wrote that the amendment does not:

Quote
"…include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States.

However, it is this last definition that is most damaging to the case that the children of foreign-born parents are not entitled to birthright citizenship. Howard’s conception refers to a single class, the children of diplomats, not multiple categories of individuals.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2015, 06:55:16 pm »
Sen. Jacob Howard, perhaps the most significant and relevant framer – the author of the Citizenship Clause, wrote that the amendment does not:

However, it is this last definition that is most damaging to the case that the children of foreign-born parents are not entitled to birthright citizenship. Howard’s conception refers to a single class, the children of diplomats, not multiple categories of individuals.

You are full of SHEITE Luis!

This is what he said straight from the Congressional Globe!

Quote
The first amendment is to section one, declaring that all "persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside. I do not propose to say anything on that subject except that the question of citizenship has been fully discussed in this body as not to need any further elucidation, in my opinion. This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 07:00:13 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2015, 06:58:15 pm »
Enough of that
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2015, 07:04:21 pm »
During the debate in Congress, Sen. Edgar Cowan of Pennsylvania worried about the consequences of extending birthright citizenship to the large numbers of Chinese immigrants on the west coast and the “Gypsies” in his home state. Cowan argued that citizenship should be preserved for “people of my own blood and lineage, people of the same religion, people of the same beliefs and traditions.”

His opponent on this issue, Sen. John Conness of California, stated that “it may be very good capital in an electioneering campaign to declaim against the Chinese” and asserted – against Cowan’s warnings about the depravity of foreigners and an invasion by “the Mongol race” – that the Chinese were an “industrious people…now passing from mining into other branches of industry.”

This debate shows that the members of Congress, despite disagreeing on the merits of the amendment, were aware of the implications of its wording. As James C. Ho writes, “[Senator] Howard’s colleagues vigorously debated the wisdom of his amendment – indeed, some opposed it precisely because they opposed extending birthright citizenship to the children of aliens of different races. But no Senator disputed the meaning of the amendment with respect to alien children [emphasis added].”
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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2015, 07:07:17 pm »
Posting from the iPhone makes for twice the work.

Here's the link:

http://ivn.us/2015/08/24/debating-birthright-citizenship-14th-amendment-2016-election/
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2015, 07:13:11 pm »
Posting from the iPhone makes for twice the work.

Here's the link:

http://ivn.us/2015/08/24/debating-birthright-citizenship-14th-amendment-2016-election/

The point is that this is not a settled issue. There are "experts" on both side of the question who are disagreeing on it, and at the end of the day, the matter will be decided by the SCOTUS because the opinikons of experts is not law.

The SCOTUS however, has already opined on this on more than one occasion, and as Ted Cruz pointed out, trying to reverse the Courts or  modify and an Amendment are long-term projects and a losing proposition.

To sit here and wave "your" experts around and call the issue settled is akin to starting with a conclusion then going out and finding facts to support it, instead of allowing the facts to lead you to a conclusion.
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Offline EC

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2015, 08:24:00 pm »
Quote
This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.

To parse it into English you are more familiar with

This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, or aliens, or who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.

The commas imply the or as it's a chain of ineligible persons.

Less legalese and more respect for the language please.
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2015, 12:36:44 am »
Luis wrote above:
[[ Wow, another amateur Constitutional scholar is heard from. ]]

Speak for yourself, Luis.

You have consistently been promoting (pushing?) that the 14th Amendment, "as is", mandates birthright citizenship. That is, that anyone physically born in the United States is automatically a "citizen" of the United States.

Very well. Your opinion is as good as anyone else's.
Indeed, I tend to agree with you.
Unless there is:
1. An attempt by the Congress to deny the concept of birthright citizenship, that is:
2. Challenged in the Supreme Court...
... that it is going to remain "the law of the land".

Again, very well.

But your constant posting regarding this begs a question:
Is this something that YOU, Luis Gonzalez, WANTS?

I sense that yes, you DO want it to be -- and to REMAIN -- the law of the land.

That's very telling.
Why do you want this?

If you deny that you want this, what do you suggest to change it?

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2015, 12:50:29 am »
Luis wrote above:
[[ Wow, another amateur Constitutional scholar is heard from. ]]

Speak for yourself, Luis.

You have consistently been promoting (pushing?) that the 14th Amendment, "as is", mandates birthright citizenship. That is, that anyone physically born in the United States is automatically a "citizen" of the United States.

Very well. Your opinion is as good as anyone else's.
Indeed, I tend to agree with you.
Unless there is:
1. An attempt by the Congress to deny the concept of birthright citizenship, that is:
2. Challenged in the Supreme Court...
... that it is going to remain "the law of the land".

Again, very well.

But your constant posting regarding this begs a question:
Is this something that YOU, Luis Gonzalez, WANTS?

I sense that yes, you DO want it to be -- and to REMAIN -- the law of the land.

That's very telling.
Why do you want this?

If you deny :th_10444: that you want this, what do you suggest to change it?

I agree with Luis on this. As far as I know, the issue has been settled by The Supreme Court.  Anyone born on US land is a US citizen. Period. And, as Ted Cruz says, it would take a Constitutional Amendment to overturn.

Are you going to question my motives, too, because I don't self-identify as Hispanic? 

Aren't we above this kind of bullshit on TBR?
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2015, 01:01:33 am »
I firmly believe the 14th does not envision birthright citizenship to any baby under any circumstance delivered on US soil.

Offline aligncare

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Re: Et Tu, John Yoo?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2015, 01:18:43 am »
Let me clarify. I believe the authors of the 14th would never have accepted that parents in illegal status should be rewarded with citizenship for their children. No. Never envisioned, never intended, never should have become custom, and would never had been, but for misrulings by some old men in black robes.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 01:20:27 am by aligncare »