Author Topic: Progressives Love Anti-Religious Art — as Long as It’s Anti-Christian....By Jonah Goldberg  (Read 3175 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mystery-ak

  • Owner
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 384,062
  • Let's Go Brandon!
http://www.nationalreview.com/node/418083/print

 Progressives Love Anti-Religious Art — as Long as It’s Anti-Christian
The Left’s stance on provocative art is inconsistent.
By Jonah Goldberg — May 8, 2015

Why aren’t liberals offering Pamela Geller a federal subsidy? Geller is the blogger-activist who organized the “Draw Muhammad” exhibition in Garland, Texas, which inspired some DIY jihadists to attack the event. The would-be terrorists chose poorly: They were cut down by Texas lawmen shortly after wounding a security guard.

Let’s hop in the WayBack Machine for a moment.

In 1986, the National Endowment of Arts paid about $20,000 for Andreas Serrano’s “Piss Christ.” Serrano peed in a glass, plunked a plastic icon of Jesus on the cross into it, and then snapped a picture. I will say the lighting was lovely. But, as strange as it seemed to the “arts community,” some people were offended.



In 1989, the Corcoran Gallery of Art agreed to host a Robert Mapplethorpe exhibit. Mapplethorpe’s work was edgy, particularly going by the attitudes at the time. There were the obligatory sexual bondage scenes, urine-drinking (artistic urine: is there anything it can’t do?), and, of course, his most famous work: a self-portrait showing a bullwhip going someplace the sun reportedly does not shine.

Many social conservatives flipped out. They asked: “Why the hell are we paying for this?!”

Now, personally, I think this is a reasonable question even if you are a huge fan of Mapplethorpe’s hide-the-bullwhip oeuvre or enjoy seeing the Christian God incarnate lose in the urine dunk tank.



Federal subsidies for “art” — or even art without scare quotes — are legitimately controversial for all sorts of reasons: Surely the government has higher priorities; bureaucrats shouldn’t be in the business of picking winners and losers, in the marketplace or the art gallery; it’s particularly annoying to be asked to fund expression you find inartistic and obscene.

Thomas Jefferson said it well: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”

But whenever Congress attempted to curtail funding of offensive art, editorial pages, faculty lounges, and museum boards launched a nationwide elite freak-out. In 1989, when the Senate voted to restrict some funding for offensive art, Richard Koshalek, the director of the Museum of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles, told the New York Times that he felt that the vote was “a form of psychological tyranny, trying to put the art world into a state of terror.” Painter Robert Motherwell exclaimed that “for Congress to act as censor is outrageous. The ultimate end is fascism.”



    Whenever Congress attempted to curtail funding of offensive art, editorial pages, faculty lounges, and museum boards launched a nationwide elite freak-out.

Similar reactions sprouted up like mushrooms on manure throughout the 1990s. For instance, in 1997, the Miami Herald editorialized that having a legal standard of “decency and respect” for arts funding was a possible invitation for the Supreme Court to “scuttle the First Amendment.”

Speaking of manure, there was the time the taxpayer-subsidized Brooklyn Museum of Art ran an exhibit in which a portrait of the Virgin Mary was partly comprised of pornographic pictures and elephant dung — because, you know, art.



Note: None of the critics said such work should be banned. They said it shouldn’t be publicly showcased on their dime. And yet, opposition to a taxpayer subsidy was almost universally seen as unambiguous censorship and violence against the First Amendment.

Another interesting tidbit: Christians didn’t try to murder these artists. Nor did Christian organizations exhort their members to do so.

Which brings us to Pamela Geller. I’m consistent: I didn’t like “Piss Christ,” and I don’t like insulting drawings of Mohammed. If Geller wanted an NEA grant to dunk Mohammed in beautifully illuminated urine, I would disagree quite strongly.

But that’s not what she’s doing. She’s contending that in America, people are allowed to say offensive things without risking execution. I am at a loss as to why anyone would disagree with that. But I am utterly baffled how people who think it’s censorship to withdraw funding for anti-Christian “hate speech” can argue that private individuals have no right to express anti-Muslim views.

“While we have freedom of speech,” a New York Daily News columnist insisted, “we also have freedom of religion, which shouldn’t be impinged upon.” CNN’s Chris Cuomo, a law-school grad, tweeted that Geller’s “hate speech” isn’t protected by the Constitution. At first Cuomo suggested proof of this could be found in the Constitution itself. He then hastily clarified that it fails the “fighting words” doctrine of the Supreme Court.

I’m dubious about that. But if he’s right, the lesson is clear: Violence pays. I doubt that’s what he intended to say. But what do I know? I think these people are nuts.
Proud Supporter of Tunnel to Towers
Support the USO
Democrat Party...the Party of Infanticide

“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”
-Matthew 6:34

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Quote
Which brings us to Pamela Geller. I’m consistent: I didn’t like “Piss Christ,” and I don’t like insulting drawings of Mohammed. If Geller wanted an NEA grant to dunk Mohammed in beautifully illuminated urine, I would disagree quite strongly.

But that’s not what she’s doing. She’s contending that in America, people are allowed to say offensive things without risking execution.

It isn't seldom that I disagree with Goldberg, but I do here.

Geller was never in danger of "execution", she was/is in danger of being assassinated.

That's quite different.

I guess my question would be whether it is just as wrong to spend public money for what some may consider to be offensive art work (Piss Christ), as it is to protect Geller's life after she engages in the exercise of her Constitutionally-protected right to engage in an activity that others may find equally offensive.

She wants FBI protection.

Are then the Westboro Baptists, the KKK and like groups also deserving of public-funded protection?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
One more thing.

The First Amendment protects you from government action intended to violate your rights. It doesn't protect you from the possible consequences of exercising your rights.

It can't. It can only punish those who may violate the law while reacting to your actions.

I have the Constitutionally-protected right to march down the center of Baltimore's inner city street wearing a KKK outfit, but I will almost unquestionably get my ass kicked into tomorrow for doing it.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277
“While we have freedom of speech,” a New York Daily News columnist insisted, “we also have freedom of religion, which shouldn’t be impinged upon.”

Unless we want you to bake us a cake, in which case we can infringe upon your religious freedom...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
Yes, FBI and police have a duty to protect the free speech of Americans, private citizens who draw cartoons offensive to some religious homicidal maniacs who publicly threaten with violence said cartoonists.

And, goes without saying, I agree with Thomas Jefferson. Being forced to subsidize the offensive free speech of deranged artists is sinful and tyrannical. Let the artist try to make a living in the free-market of ideas. I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Yes, FBI and police have a duty to protect the free speech of Americans, private citizens who draw cartoons offensive to some religious homicidal maniacs who publicly threaten with violence said cartoonists.

And, goes without saying, I agree with Thomas Jefferson. Being forced to subsidize the offensive free speech of deranged artists is sinful and tyrannical. Let the artist try to make a living in the free-market of ideas. I shouldn't have to pay for it.

You just contradicted yourself.

What constitutes a "deranged artist" is totally subjective, and spending money on protecting one by supplying protection is spending money as well.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
Contradiction is part of the human condition. I can live with it.

It's wrong to force me to pay for piss Christ. But, if a threat is made against the artist because of his "art," I have no problems paying for his police protection. Criticism of one's art is one thing, death threat is a whole other level of wrong.

Someone is missing the point here, and I don't think it's me.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Contradiction is part of the human condition. I can live with it.

It's wrong to force me to pay for piss Christ. But, if a threat is made against the artist because of his "art," I have no problems paying for his police protection. Criticism of one's art is one thing, death threat is a whole other level of wrong.

Someone is missing the point here, and I don't think it's me.

She had her exhibition free of government interference. Her constitutional rights were freely discharged.

She was protected by the authorities. The government did their job.

She was wrong in what she did, but she has a right to be wrong.

What am I missing here?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
First Amendment scholar, Eugene Volokh, Gary T. Schwartz Professor of Law, UCLA School of Law, disagrees with you.

Not only was Geller within her rights to hold the contest, it was the right thing to do, according to Volokh's analysis.

Dershowitz agreed with Volokh, saying "it's part of the American tradition to provoke so that the world can see."

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277
What am I missing here?

The fact that there is no end to moslem outrage...

                 

« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 03:32:52 pm by GourmetDan »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline flowers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,798
The fact that there is no end to moslem outrage...

                 
very true!


Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
First Amendment scholar, Eugene Volokh, Gary T. Schwartz Professor of Law, UCLA School of Law, disagrees with you.

Not only was Geller within her rights to hold the contest, it was the right thing to do, according to Volokh's analysis.

Dershowitz agreed with Volokh, saying "it's part of the American tradition to provoke so that the world can see."

I post on the Volokh Conspiracy. It's a great blog.

Sometimes I agree with Prof. Volokh, sometimes I don't.

We are all in full agreement on the question of whether or not Geller (all of us) have the right to do what she did.

She did.

The question of whether it was the right thing or the wrong thing thing to do however is a question of personal opinion and not a legal question, so Prof. Volokh's thoughts on that carry no more weight than mine.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Lando Lincoln

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,537
  • Gender: Male
It was 100% her right to do what she did - without doubt or qualification.   This is not an argument about her Constitutional rights.  She had 'em.  Nor were the LEO's in the line of fire to specifically defend the Constitution.  This really is not a debate on the Constitution or whose feelings were offended in other venues. It has everything to do with judgment and the consequence of that judgment forcing others to be in mortal danger.

Had my LEO son or daughter taken a bullet for such an unnecessary provocation... well, you know the rest.

Oh... I'm glad the bad guys are dead.

Other than that, the episode accomplished nothing.
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277
This really is not a debate on the Constitution or whose feelings were offended in other venues. It has everything to do with judgment and the consequence of that judgment forcing others to be in mortal danger.

That would be the guys who showed up in body armor with assault rifles... right?


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
It was 100% her right to do what she did - without doubt or qualification.   This is not an argument about her Constitutional rights.  She had 'em.  Nor were the LEO's in the line of fire to specifically defend the Constitution.  This really is not a debate on the Constitution or whose feelings were offended in other venues. It has everything to do with judgment and the consequence of that judgment forcing others to be in mortal danger.

Had my LEO son or daughter taken a bullet for such an unnecessary provocation... well, you know the rest.

Oh... I'm glad the bad guys are dead.

Other than that, the episode accomplished nothing.

It's this whole idea that empty or purely symbolic gestures carry some sort of weight.

Good posting.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277
It's this whole idea that empty or purely symbolic gestures carry some sort of weight.

Good posting.

Like blog posts that say 'good posting'?


« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 06:51:04 pm by GourmetDan »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
First Amendment scholar, Eugene Volokh, Gary T. Schwartz Professor of Law, UCLA School of Law, disagrees with you. S

Not only was Geller within her rights to hold the contest, it was the right thing to do, according to Volokh's analysis.

Dershowitz agreed with Volokh, saying "it's part of the American tradition to provoke so that the world can see."

See what exactly?

What can she illustrate that was not already illustrated by the attacks on 9/11, Charlie Hebdo?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277
 
Kinda like blaming the rape victim for wearing suggestive clothing.

She shoulda known what was gonna happen...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
Giving assassins veto power over my country's core beliefs in free speech? I don't think so. I took an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States when I entered the Air Force, not some deranged foreign religious doctrine.

Avert your gaze, everyone, a drawing of Mohammed.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Giving assassins veto power over my country's core beliefs in free speech? I don't think so. I took an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States when I entered the Air Force, not some deranged foreign religious doctrine.

Avert your gaze, everyone, a drawing of Mohammed.

What on Earth are you talking about?

The Constitution can't protect you from the actions of madmen. MLK wasn't protected from the actions of a man and was assassinated for the exercise of his First Amendment rights, but he exercised them freely.

Come on... freedom is not safe, or at least that's what Ben Franklin told us, and our Constitution can't protect us from the possible consequences of the exercise of our liberties.

Geller is as free today as she was the day before the attempted attack to exercise her freedom of expression, and in as much danger too.

The fact that you are free to say something can't possibly protect you from some guy who may take offense at what you're saying punching you in the face for saying it.

You're confusing the issues here.

"Congress shall make no law..."

Congress has made no law saying that Islam can't be insulted. Our First Amendment laws stand.

Where have the country's "core beliefs in free speech" been harmed?

Because we now understand that exercising it in that manner may elicit a  violent reaction from fanatical Islamists?

She knew that going into the exhibition. Hell, the whole world knows that in the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attack, and she got the exact reaction she wanted to get.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277
 
Congress can't make a law establishing a religion... but the muslims can enforce their own laws and establish a religion.

But the Christians can't refuse to bake homosexuals a cake.

Look it up, it's in the Constitution...   /s


« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 07:49:06 pm by GourmetDan »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Online DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,162
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Telling us that Geller was using bad judgment in holding the event, is unadulterated bullshit.

And it served one helluva purpose. 

One law enforcement officer with a handgun took out two Muslim Extremist anti-Christian phobes with AK-47 weapons.

I am sick and damned tired of appeasement.

We, as Americans mock skinheads.  We mock the Cali drug cartel.  We mock outlaw motorcycle gangs.  We mock the Crips and the Bloods.

But, they're too damned busy doing their thing, to give a crap what we think.

We also, as Americans, didn't physically harm the artist who produced "Piss Christ".

Gimme a break and grow a set.  All of you.

I say Geller plans another one.  Larger, bigger and "as well funded as....."er, never mind.   And hires a dozen or two Blackwater (Academi) special ops personnel to hide in and around the venue.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Telling us that Geller was using bad judgment in holding the event, is unadulterated bullshit.

No, it's an exercise in free speech.

You're for free speech... right?

Quote
And it served one helluva purpose. 

One law enforcement officer with a handgun took out two Muslim Extremist anti-Christian phobes with AK-47 weapons.

LUCKILY, one law enforcement officer was able to take out the perps.

Had that not been the case would the cartoons and the event justify the loss of lives?

Quote
I am sick and damned tired of appeasement.

We, as Americans mock skinheads.  We mock the Cali drug cartel.  We mock outlaw motorcycle gangs.  We mock the Crips and the Bloods.

But, they're too damned busy doing their thing, to give a crap what we think.

We also, as Americans, didn't physically harm the artist who produced "Piss Christ".

Gimme a break and grow a set.  All of you.

Really?

Grow a set?

Is her constitutionally-protected right to offend (she unquestionably has that) more valuable than my equally constitutionally-protected right to say that in my opinion her event had very little value, other than offending some and putting some LEO in the line of fire, just as I believe that  the equally constitutionally protected "Piss Christ" had no value and as I believe that stomping on an American flag lacks value even though it is a constitutionally-protected right?

Not everything that is a "right" has a value to everyone, and if she should be free from criticism for her actions (not a constitutionally-protected right BTW), then those who disagree with her should be afforded equal protection, respect and civility.

Quote
I say Geller plans another one.  Larger, bigger and "as well funded as....."er, never mind.   And hires a dozen or two Blackwater (Academi) special ops personnel to hide in and around the venue.

So do I, and I like the idea that she should pay for protection, and she should also remember Ben Franklin's warning.

Freedom isn't safe.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 09:41:46 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277
So do I, and I like the idea that she should pay for protection, and she should also remember Ben Franklin's warning.

Freedom isn't safe.


"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 09:52:49 pm by GourmetDan »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
Geller and her group – she has been outspoken on Islam for 10 years and has private security because of it – showed courage. The event was important to stage for so many reasons.

Not the least of which is that it may have awakened many to what is at stake here. When a cartoon contest elicits this kind of response on American soil, our liberty to speak freely is threatened by fear of violent retaliation.

I wouldn't doubt opinion begins shifting to the right because of what happened when an American woman courageously spoke out against political correctness and defied those that would use fear and intimidation to threaten her into silence.