Author Topic: New White House Petition to “Classify Refusal To Vaccinate Children As A Mental Disorder” Has 2,000+ Signatures  (Read 5615 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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He's ignored.  Him dex and sink.  3 peas in a pod.

sink's a good guy.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline olde north church

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sink's a good guy.

He very well may be.  I don't have patience people since my stroke though.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline EdinVA

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Not to keep beating a dead horse but there is one aspect of this entire conversation that is missing.

If your child is sick, keep him/her home, that solves a lot of the issues.  I cannot tell you how many times we had to treat pneumonia (no vaccine) and norovirus/etc because someone could not stand to take a few days away from their socialization and self gratification and make sure their kid was over their bug.  I cannot imagine taking a child with the measles to Disney land.  I will bet that was a really fun vacation.

Offline olde north church

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Not to keep beating a dead horse but there is one aspect of this entire conversation that is missing.

If your child is sick, keep him/her home, that solves a lot of the issues.  I cannot tell you how many times we had to treat pneumonia (no vaccine) and norovirus/etc because someone could not stand to take a few days away from their socialization and self gratification and make sure their kid was over their bug.  I cannot imagine taking a child with the measles to Disney land.  I will bet that was a really fun vacation.

I figured that would go without saying, my good man.  It was a bit before my time but didn't they used to quarantine the ill?  But they got rights.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Not to keep beating a dead horse but there is one aspect of this entire conversation that is missing.

If your child is sick, keep him/her home, that solves a lot of the issues.  I cannot tell you how many times we had to treat pneumonia (no vaccine) and norovirus/etc because someone could not stand to take a few days away from their socialization and self gratification and make sure their kid was over their bug.  I cannot imagine taking a child with the measles to Disney land.  I will bet that was a really fun vacation.

Measles is highly contagious for days before the rash appears and days after it's gone.

The first symptoms are identical to a common cold.

Most people won't stay home from work or keep their kids home from school because of a runny nose.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online DCPatriot

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Measles is highly contagious for days before the rash appears and days after it's gone.

The first symptoms are identical to a common cold.

Most people won't stay home from work or keep their kids home from school because of a runny nose.

It's my understanding when I was a little boy back in the 1950's, you could 'catch' measles THREE TIMES before you were immune.   Chicken pox...once.

If virtually the entire country is immunized...except the illegal immigrants flooding in...I don't see the 'problem'.

...except, when you cannot trust YOUR government to be telling the truth about ANYTHING.

I recall reading about a black-ops....no pun intended...back in my childhood, when it was discovered that American Negro soldiers were being purposefully injected with syphilis or some other horror...calling it an experiment decades later.

No reason why it couldn't be something sinister to further erode the Caucasian majority today.  Yeah it sounds and reads, crazy, but this is the Obama Administration in charge, that we're talking about.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Offline EdinVA

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Measles is highly contagious for days before the rash appears and days after it's gone.

The first symptoms are identical to a common cold.

Most people won't stay home from work or keep their kids home from school because of a runny nose.

Measles typically begins with

    high fever,
    cough,
    runny nose (coryza), and
    red, watery eyes (conjunctivitis).

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/signs-symptoms.html

If you kid has a fever, you don't go to school....

Offline Dexter

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Funny how all these personal liberty paragons here when it comes to vaccination - a real public health matter - become out and out fascists when it comes to gays - a non-public matter.

 :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 04:29:22 pm by Dex4974 »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline Relic

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What amazes me is how people, here and elsewhere, dig in so firmly and are unable to acknowledge valid points on either side.

- Vaccinations are integral to public health. Refusing proven safe vaccines is not only dangerous to the individual, it's dangerous to us all.

- Government dictating what you must put in your body is equally, if not more dangerous. Government is completely capable of demanding vaccines that aren't safe, for economic reasons. It's also a trip to that infamous slippery slope.

I think the constant lies, such as the twisting of climate change data, fuel mistrust of government and science. And there is the spectre of the dramatic increase in autism.

I see both sides, this is not a simple problem. As I side, both sides have valid concerns.

Offline olde north church

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What amazes me is how people, here and elsewhere, dig in so firmly and are unable to acknowledge valid points on either side.

- Vaccinations are integral to public health. Refusing proven safe vaccines is not only dangerous to the individual, it's dangerous to us all.

- Government dictating what you must put in your body is equally, if not more dangerous. Government is completely capable of demanding vaccines that aren't safe, for economic reasons. It's also a trip to that infamous slippery slope.

I think the constant lies, such as the twisting of climate change data, fuel mistrust of government and science. And there is the spectre of the dramatic increase in autism.

I see both sides, this is not a simple problem. As I side, both sides have valid concerns.

If autism rates were growing equally across the country, I might take anti-vax quacks a bit more seriously.  They are not.  That discussion is ended.
Conflating mistrust of government, a long-held, widely accepted attitude in America and the anti-vax quacks are two different things.  I would let an instance of 9/11 Trutherism slither through my mind before even entertaining an anti-vaccary.
 
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Relic

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If autism rates were growing equally across the country, I might take anti-vax quacks a bit more seriously.  They are not.  That discussion is ended.
Conflating mistrust of government, a long-held, widely accepted attitude in America and the anti-vax quacks are two different things.  I would let an instance of 9/11 Trutherism slither through my mind before even entertaining an anti-vaccary.

Ahhhh, the science is settled then.
Well, done, Mr. Gore.

Offline olde north church

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Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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What amazes me is how people, here and elsewhere, dig in so firmly and are unable to acknowledge valid points on either side.

- Vaccinations are integral to public health. Refusing proven safe vaccines is not only dangerous to the individual, it's dangerous to us all.

- Government dictating what you must put in your body is equally, if not more dangerous. Government is completely capable of demanding vaccines that aren't safe, for economic reasons. It's also a trip to that infamous slippery slope.

I think the constant lies, such as the twisting of climate change data, fuel mistrust of government and science. And there is the spectre of the dramatic increase in autism.

I see both sides, this is not a simple problem. As I side, both sides have valid concerns.

Government shouldn't dictate what you should put into your body, but it can restrict you from doing things like attending public schools without being vaccinated.

Vaccinations were a condition of my migrating here.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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If autism rates were growing equally across the country, I might take anti-vax quacks a bit more seriously.  They are not.  That discussion is ended.
Conflating mistrust of government, a long-held, widely accepted attitude in America and the anti-vax quacks are two different things.  I would let an instance of 9/11 Trutherism slither through my mind before even entertaining an anti-vaccary.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Not every child that's vaccinated develops autism but (mostly) every child who develops autism has been vaccinated, however many unvaccinated children develop autism.

The anti-vaccine crowd sport all the trappings of the conspiracy/truther/Illuminati true believers. Lack of proof constitutes proof of a greater conspiracy, and any and all studies and/or documents that disprove your theory is fabricated proof of a greater conspiracy.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 09:14:23 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline olde north church

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Correlation does not imply causation.

Not every child that's vaccinated develops autism but (mostly) every child who develops autism has been vaccinated, however many unvaccinated children develop autism.

The anti-vaccine crowd sport all the trappings of the conspiracy/truther/Illuminati true believers. Lack of proof constitutes proof of a greater conspiracy, and any and all studies and/or documents that disprove your theory is fabricated and proof of a greater conspiracy.

Correct about the cause/correlate.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline truth_seeker

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Correlation does not imply causation.

Not every child that's vaccinated develops autism but (mostly) every child who develops autism has been vaccinated, however many unvaccinated children develop autism.

The anti-vaccine crowd sport all the trappings of the conspiracy/truther/Illuminati true believers. Lack of proof constitutes proof of a greater conspiracy, and any and all studies and/or documents that disprove your theory is fabricated and proof of a greater conspiracy.
I find one aspect of this and other situations occurs partly because some cannot or will not understand statistics and probability.

You can get a higher education, and never study higher math or statistics and probability. Or logic.

Students of science, mathematics, medicine, engineering, business and accounting must all study statistics and probability.

Virtually everybody employs concepts of probability, when they drive on public roads. They rely on the chances of a collision being relatively small.

When I personally evaluate risks, I worry the MOST about other people, not about institutions and systems.

Example: Driving on public roads, I expect the roads to be well engineered and maintained. I expect the vehicles (mine and others) to be well engineered and maintained.

The biggest and most worrisome variable is the behavior of other drivers. Are they skilled, alert and sober?

I do NOT fear BIG medicine, or BIG pharma. I DO fear other humans who don't vaccinate, consistent with proven public health protocols. In relative terms, here in America today, herd immunity largely protects us all.

If this continues, eventually the numbers will catch up. Some anti-vaxxers will have killed their children, and word will get out.

When it comes to understanding statistics, probability and health outcomes, I'll trust public health physicians everytime, over kooks and quacks.





"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline GourmetDan

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Offline GourmetDan

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"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline aligncare

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Health officials recently reported the supply of flu vaccine is 38% effective against this year's strain of flu. However, they went on to say, you should continue to get vaccinated.....

*********************

Webmd.com:
Percentage of the U.S. population that will get the flu, on average, each year: between 5% and 20%.

A regular case of the flu typically resolves after three to seven days for the majority of people, although cough and fatigue can persist for more than two weeks.

********************

From cdc.com:
While determining how well a flu vaccine works is challenging, in general, recent studies have supported the conclusion that flu vaccination benefits public health, especially when the flu vaccine is well matched to circulating flu viruses.

(Note: Public health is an aggregate construct. However, we are each singular. What benefits public health in achieving collective immunity, may not benefit you as an individual injected with poorly matched, tainted or mishandled vaccines at the thousands of flu-shot sites that have sprung up)

********************

A recent short article in Scientific American Mind called Flu Math looked at the following question: suppose you have a 5 percent chance of dying from a flu vaccine but a 10 percent chance of contracting and dying of the flu when an epidemic strikes. Do you .....

Flu Math

Offline truth_seeker

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Measles, Vaccines and Autism

Thomas Sowell

http://www.creators.com/print/conservative/thomas-sowell/measles-vaccines-and-autism.html

The current controversy over whether parents should be forced to have their children vaccinated for measles is one of the painful signs of our times. Measles was virtually wiped out in the United States, years ago. Why the resurgence of this disease now?

The short answer is that false claims, based on other false claims, led many parents to stop getting their children vaccinated against measles.

The key false claim was that the vaccine for measles caused an increase in autism. This claim was made in 1998 by a doctor writing in a distinguished British medical journal, so it is understandable that many parents took it seriously, and did not want to run the risk of having their child become autistic.

Fortunately, others took the claim seriously in a very different sense. They did massive studies involving half a million children in Denmark and two million children in Sweden. These studies showed that there was no higher incidence of autism among children who had been vaccinated than among children who had not been vaccinated.

Incidentally, the "evidence" on which the original claim that vaccines caused autism was based was just 12 children. But the campaign to convince the public was a masterpiece of propaganda.

The story line was that pharmaceutical companies who produced the vaccine were callously risking and sacrificing helpless children in pursuit of profit. This is the kind of dramatic stuff the media love. It never seemed to occur to the media that lawyers who were suing pharmaceutical companies had a vested interest in this story line that the media fed on to the public.

Unfortunately, it takes time to run careful scientific studies, involving vast numbers of children in different countries. That allowed the propaganda against vaccines to go on for years. Eventually, however, the results of the studies so completely discredited the claim that the measles vaccine caused autism that the medical journal which had published the article publicly repudiated it. The doctor who wrote the article had his license revoked.

By this time, however, there was a whole anti-vaccine movement, and crusading movements are seldom stopped by facts.

This was not the only false claim involved. What made that claim seem plausible was a highly publicized increase in the number of children diagnosed as being autistic or being "on the autism spectrum."

What was not so widely publicized was that the definition of "autism" had expanded over the years to include children who would never have been called autistic by the standards set up when autism was defined by its discoverer, Professor Leo Kanner of the Johns Hopkins medical school, back in 1943.

Professor Kanner fought against the expansion of the definition of autism but, after his death, the definition continued to expand — and the number of children who met the expanded definition greatly increased.

There were financial incentives for this expansion. Late-talking children, for example, could get government programs to pay for their treatment if they were designated as autistic or on the autism spectrum.

Despite headlines and hysteria about skyrocketing numbers of children diagnosed as autistic, the number of children who meet the original definition of autism has been relatively stable in recent years, at about one quarter of one percent of all children, according to Professor Stephen Camarata of the Vanderbilt University Medical Center, in his recent book, "Late-Talking Children."

It may be significant that the number of children regarded as mentally retarded has fallen by numbers similar to the rise in the number of children regarded as autistic. According to Professor Camarata, "This too suggests that changes in definitions and in diagnostic practices are contributing to the perceived 'epidemic' of autism."

Does this mean that vaccines are safe? In a categorical sense, nothing on the face of the earth is 100 percent safe — including going unvaccinated. But the claim that vaccines cause autism has been discredited by evidence.

Some say the decision to vaccinate or not should be the parents' choice. That would be fine if their child would live isolated from other children. But that is impossible.

Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305. His website is www.tsowell.com. To find out more about Thomas Sowell and read features by other Creators Syndicate columnists and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.

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