Le Pen presses France to condemn 'Islamists'

[Oceander]

I have thought about this...which way do you think they will choose...back to the 7th Century or join the rest of us in the 21st Century...

I don't know, which is what makes it so unnerving.

I also do not like the way things seem to be moving with people like Ms. Le Pen.  I read the interview with her in last Saturday's Wall Street Journal and I can truly say that it scared me - and I generally find people like Le Pen less scary than your garden variety leftist - because the terms she used and the concepts she spoke of reminded me too much of the terms and concepts Hitler used when discussing things like lebensraum (literally, living space).

[Dexter]

As I said second to that quote:  the great mass of muslims are now being forced to make a choice - it is a choice their own religion is forcing on them - to go back into savagery with the radicals, or repudiate the infallible nature of the Prophet, and the truth of some of what he said, and join the rest of us in the 21st Century.  And refusing to make a choice is not a valid option; if they do not affirmatively choose to repudiate the radicals, and some of what the Prophet said, then they will have given the West - non-muslims generally - no choice but to treat them as the enemy.  It's not fair, but life is not fair, so there it is.

This isn't some garden-variety set-to between middle class American neighbors, that can be solved if only the do-gooders can get everyone to sit down over a few brewskis; this is an existential struggle, without room for compromise between the two poles, and those in the middle must choose which end to throw their lot in with; there is no middle ground and those who try to sit it out on the fence will simply be ground up in the fight.

It's hard to become part of the 21st century when you are still living in the third world. Their culture will evolve and reason will prevail just as it did here, but it is not going to happen over night. They have some catching up to do.

[240B]

I have read every word of every post on this thread.
 
And I still have to say, "FF**k the Muslims." I want them gone. I want them back to the same shitholes that they came from.
 
I am sorry. But I am just not moved.
 
They came from shithole countries, and now they want to turn my country into a shithole, so they will feel 'at home'. No thanks.
 
The Muslims should all go home to where they belong. And that is not here.

[Fishrrman]

Oceander wrote above:
[[ The trouble with that is that most muslims haven't taken that position or said any such thing.  Most muslims are now finding themselves between the hammer of radical islam and the anvil of non-muslim self-preservation:  whether they will it or not, they are very soon going to be faced with the choice of being dragged back to the 7th Century with the radicals, or joining the rest of us in the 21st Century, which will require that they repudiate some of what the Prophet said.  In some respects, that is a cruel choice to put anyone to, but it is the choice they will be put to in the near future. ]]

Your point is well-taken.

Here's an interesting quote from my archives:
========================================
"It is only Western intellectuals who distinguish between moderates and fundamentalists; people of faith distinguish between believers and non believers."

-- Lee Smith
========================================

I guess the future for many muslims is going to depend on whether or not they are "believers"....

[240B]

When a Mulim hides. behinde rock, The rock will scream, ' There is a muslim behind me'. and the Jew will chop his head off and spit on his mouth.
 
So says the Prophet Muhammed. (may piss be upon him)

[Dexter]

When a Mulim hides. behinde rock, The rock will scream, ' There is a muslim behind me'. and the Jew will chop his head off and spit on his mouth.
 
So says the Prophet Muhammed. (may piss be upon him)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad

Just wanted to put this out there. This is a letter that Muhammad wrote.


    Muhammad the son of ‘Abd Allah, the Messenger of Allah, and careful guardian of the whole world; has wrote the present instrument to all those who are in his national people, and of his own religion, as a secure and positive promise to be accomplished to the Christian nation, and relations of the Nazarene, whosoever they may be, whether they be the noble or the vulgar, the honorable or otherwise, saying thus.I. Whosoever of my nation shall presume to break my promise and oath, which is contained in this present agreement, destroys the promise of God, acts contrary to the oath, and will be a resister of the faith, (which God forbid) for he becomes worthy of the curse, whether he be the King himself, or a poor man, or whatever person he may be.
    That whenever any of the monks in his travels shall happen to settle upon any mountain, hill, village, or other habitable place, on the sea, or in deserts, or in any convent, church, or house of prayer, I shall be in the midst of them, as the preserver and protector of them, their goods and effects, with my soul, aid, and protection, jointly with all my national people; because they are a part of my own people, and an honor to me.
    Moreover, I command all officers not to require any poll-tax on them, or any other tribute, because they shall not be forced or compelled to anything of this kind.
    None shall presume to change their judges or governors, but they shall remain in their office, without being deported.
    No one shall molest them when they are travelling on the road.
    Whatever churches they are possessed of, no one is to deprive them of them.
    Whosoever shall annul any of one of these my decrees, let him know positively that he annuls the ordinance of God.
    Moreover, neither their judges, governors, monks, servants, disciples, or any others depending on them, shall pay any poll-tax, or be molested on that account, because I am their protector, wherever they shall be, either by land or sea, east or west, north or south; because both they and all that belong to them are included in this my promissory oath and patent.
    And of those that live quietly and solitary upon the mountains, they shall exact neither poll-tax nor tithes from their incomes, neither shall any Muslim partake of what they have; for they labor only to maintain themselves.
    Whenever the crop of the earth shall be plentiful in its due time, the inhabitants shall be obliged out of every bushel to give them a certain measure.
    Neither in time of war shall they take them out of their habitations, nor compel them to go to the wars, nor even then shall they require of them any poll-tax.
    In these eleven chapters is to be found whatever relates to the monks, as to the remaining seven chapters, they direct what relates to every Christian.
    Those Christians who are inhabitants, and with their riches and traffic are able to pay the poll-tax, shall pay no more than twelve drachms.
    Excepting this, nothing shall be required of them, according to the express order of God, that says, ‘Do not molest those that have a veneration for the books that are sent from God, but rather in a kind manner give of your good things to them, and converse with them, and hinder everyone from molesting them’ [29:46].
    If a Christian woman shall happen to marry a Muslim man, the Muslim shall not cross the inclination of his wife, to keep her from her church and prayers, and the practice of her religion.
    That no person hinder them from repairing their churches.
    Whosoever acts contrary to my grant, or gives credit to anything contrary to it, becomes truly an apostate to God, and to his divine apostle, because this protection I have granted to them according to this promise.
    No one shall bear arms against them, but, on the contrary, the Muslims shall wage war for them.
    And by this I ordain, that none of my nation shall presume to do or act contrary to this my promise, until the end of the world.

[240B]

-+++++++
 
F$$ck Mohammed. If I had a sight on Muhammed's a-hole I would drill him right up the pooper shoot.
 
There comes a time when you be real. There come a time when, you have to look out for your own.
 
Yeah, Mulsims may be good people. They may be just fine.
 
The problem is that I do not care. I would rather kill them all or kick them out, than to take the risk. I do not want to roll dice on my life, or the life of my friends and family.

[Dexter]

-+++++++
 
F$$ck Mohammed. If I had a sight on Muhammed's a-hole I would drill him right up the pooper shoot.
 
There comes a time when you be real. There come a time when, you have to look out for your own.
 
Yeah, Mulsims may be good people. They may be just fine.
 
The problem is that I do not care. I would rather kill them all or kick them out, than to take the risk. I do not want to roll dice on my life, or the life of my friends and family.

Some might misconstrue that as extremism.

[DCPatriot]

Some might misconstrue that as extremism.

Think 240b's reached his boiling point.  As many American have.

A little advice.....

Re: Islamic extremism, we all know where each and every one of us stands on the issues.  But I would strongly suggest that you utilize this emoticon ( :nometalk: ) in place of posts where one feels the need to vent his/her frustrations.

Please?  We all want the site to grow and gain popularity....but NOT that type of scrutiny. 

Thank you all for your consideration.

[aligncare]

Think 240b's reached his boiling point.  As many American have.

A little advice.....

Re: Islamic extremism, we all know where each and every one of us stands on the issues.  But I would strongly suggest that you utilize this emoticon ( :nometalk: ) in place of posts where one feels the need to vent his/her frustrations.

Please?  We all want the site to grow and gain popularity....but NOT that type of scrutiny. 

Thank you all for your consideration.

Notice how quiet it's gotten around here? I suspect I know why.

[DCPatriot]

Notice how quiet it's gotten around here? I suspect I know why.

Would you care to elaborate on that, AC? 

My take is that the headlines are becoming more and more outrageous....as if something was DARING a response from the Right.

[aligncare]

Would you care to elaborate on that, AC? 

My take is that the headlines are becoming more and more outrageous....as if something was DARING a response from the Right.

I think it's the constant bickering. Also, it's the "I'll take my marbles and go home" attitude that's some folks take out of frustration. But that's unproductive to our goal of changing minds.

I think it's important to challenge ideas. Allow liberals to state their point of view but then persuade them how they are wrong. I don't agree with Dex, but having an open talk helps move the discussion. Remember, more people are listening in than are participating. We want to change minds—not sing in the choir.

[musiclady]

It's hard to become part of the 21st century when you are still living in the third world. Their culture will evolve and reason will prevail just as it did here, but it is not going to happen over night. They have some catching up to do.

I'm surprised you're so politically UN-PC, Dex.  It's no longer called the "third world"..... it's called the "developing world."

That means that the people in those countries are seeking to catch up, 'evolve' if you will, to the rest of the developed world.

That's where your argument about Islam falls apart at the seams.  The world of 'fundamentalist' Islam will NEVER 'evolve' nor will 'reason prevail' because anyone who tries to move in that direction is silenced (one way or another).

They are still living in the 7th century because they believe they have been commanded by Allah to do so.  When Afghanistan had 'evolved' and women started to gain some freedoms and became educated, radical Islam took over and destroyed all the progress that had been made.  Kabul returned, by the will of Allah, to the 7th century.

The stronger part of Islam will not 'evolve' and they will continue to try to destroy everyone and everything that HAS evolved.  In a very real world, your view is merely fantasy.  Look around you, Dex.  Try to learn.....

[musiclady]

I think it's the constant bickering. Also, it's the "I'll take my marbles and go home" attitude that's some folks take out of frustration. But that's unproductive to our goal of changing minds.

I think it's important to challenge ideas. Allow liberals to state their point of view but then persuade them how they are wrong. I don't agree with Dex, but having an open talk helps move the discussion. Remember, more people are listening in than are participating. We want to change minds—not sing in the choir.

That's the key, aligncare.  People like Dex are provocateurs.  He's not here to learn, but rather to vomit prepared talking points.

The goal is not to persuade him.  (That's impossible.  When confronted with fact after fact, he remains intransigent in his leftist la-la land ideology).  The goal is to persuade others who read both sides of the debate, and have an open enough mind to learn and grow.

[Fishrrman]

Dex wrote above:
[[ Some might misconstrue that as extremism. ]]

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."
- Barry Goldwater

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"
- Thomas Jefferson

"Without life, there can be no liberty nor the pursuit of happiness"
- Fishrrman

[DCPatriot]

That's the key, aligncare.  People like Dex are provocateurs.  He's not here to learn, but rather to vomit prepared talking points.

The goal is not to persuade him.  (That's impossible.  When confronted with fact after fact, he remains intransigent in his leftist la-la land ideology).  The goal is to persuade others who read both sides of the debate, and have an open enough mind to learn and grow.

You know that I 'love' you dearly, ML.  That said,calling Dex a provocateur and a leftist ideologue is unfair, IMO.

I believe that Dex is a tried and true Conservative, who simply has lost patience with the dilly-dallying around political correctness regarding the Muslim religion and how it is treated and perceived.

Some men of action can't stand paralysis when the solution to the 'problem' is clear.

Enough foreplay....we've 'danced' long enough.

[musiclady]

You know that I 'love' you dearly, ML.  That said,calling Dex a provocateur and a leftist ideologue is unfair, IMO.

I believe that Dex is a tried and true Conservative, who simply has lost patience with the dilly-dallying around political correctness regarding the Muslim religion and how it is treated and perceived.

Some men of action can't stand paralysis when the solution to the 'problem' is clear.

Enough foreplay....we've 'danced' long enough.

I thoroughly disagree with you, DC.  The 'arguments' coming from Dex are straight out of the leftist lala land playbook.  And even if 5 or 6 older and wiser folks give him all the information he needs to straighten up his thinking, he goes on his merry way spouting platitudes.

I agree he's not a fan of big government (or at least says he's not....... I've still got a pretty keen troll-sniffer working for me), and he SAYS he doesn't like Obama, but 'tried and true conservative?'........... not even close.  Not even CLOSE.

[Dexter]

I don't understand why my political label is so important.

[aligncare]

I don't understand why my political label is so important.

Allow me.

Folks like to know where someone is coming from. If I come on and say I'm a liberal Democrat, we have a starting point for discussion—or a reason for banning. One or the other.   

[Dexter]

Allow me.

Folks like to know where someone is coming from. If I come on and say I'm a liberal Democrat, we have a starting point for discussion—or a reason for banning. One or the other.   

I believe my posts adequately illustrate where I am coming from. Maybe people should focus on that rather than trying to use a label to determine how credible my opinion is.

[aligncare]

I believe my posts adequately illustrate where I am coming from. Maybe people should focus on that rather than trying to use a label to determine how credible my opinion is.

Good answer. But, as with everyone, it's not a label I respond to, it's the comment itself. Believe it or not, there are some things with which I agree with liberals (at least honest liberals).

[240B]

Think 240b's reached his boiling point.  As many American have.

A little advice.....

Re: Islamic extremism, we all know where each and every one of us stands on the issues.  But I would strongly suggest that you utilize this emoticon ( :nometalk: ) in place of posts where one feels the need to vent his/her frustrations.

Please?  We all want the site to grow and gain popularity....but NOT that type of scrutiny. 

Thank you all for your consideration.

Yes, you are right. I did kind of fly off the handle last night. And you are also right about the boiling point. Putin said it exactly right. If you don't like the country you are in, then just LEAVE. Nobody is forcing any Muslims to live in Western nations.
 
They freely immigrate to countries, and then all they do is complain and protest, and try to make the new place the exact same as the place they just left. This makes no sense, at all. If Islam is as important to you as you say it is, THEN MOVE TO AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY! YOU NUT!
 
But yes, I am perfectly fine with admonishment and advice. I will effort to tone it down in the future.

[musiclady]

I believe my posts adequately illustrate where I am coming from. Maybe people should focus on that rather than trying to use a label to determine how credible my opinion is.

That's exactly what I've responded to, Dex.  You argue liberal talking points.

When you stop illustrating that you're coming from the left (on most subjects) by your words and your line of 'reasoning' (i.e. straw dog arguments), then you can change the impression you give to others.  (An occasional "I hate both Democrats and Republicans" doesn't do the trick).
 
I have family members who are liberals, and I don't need to point out that they are liberal when discussing issues with them, because they are honest and admit it.

As the tired old saying goes........ it is what it is.

Just say who you are, and say honestly what you think, and people can judge for themselves and move on.

[mystery-ak]

But yes, I am perfectly fine with admonishment and advice. I will effort to tone it down in the future.

WOW...I wish I heard this more often around here....

[Dexter]

That's exactly what I've responded to, Dex.  You argue liberal talking points.

When you stop illustrating that you're coming from the left (on most subjects) by your words and your line of 'reasoning' (i.e. straw dog arguments), then you can change the impression you give to others.  (An occasional "I hate both Democrats and Republicans" doesn't do the trick).
 
I have family members who are liberals, and I don't need to point out that they are liberal when discussing issues with them, because they are honest and admit it.

As the tired old saying goes........ it is what it is.

Just say who you are, and say honestly what you think, and people can judge for themselves and move on.

Why does left or right need to come up at all, let alone in every single conversation? If I am wrong then you should demonstrate that; saying I'm throwing up left wing talking points does not discredit what I have said. Focus on the conversation, not on which political ideology a specific opinion might be closest to.