musiclady wrote above:
[[ After a lot of thought, I agree with this view. It's not that Obama hasn't done a zillion things for which he could be impeached.
But at this stage of the game, with only two years left it wouldn't actually get him out of office, it most likely wouldn't pass the Senate, it would make Republicans look vengeful and not patriotic, nor principled, and it would turn Obama into a martyr. ]]
Once again, I will disagree.
We must at least -try- to remove Obama from office.
I am with you on this, all the way. I doubt that we will ever convince anyone else of this, but that matters not to me. I am convinced that there will be many here (and elsewhere) that will look back at this time, from a period not too far down the road, and will rue the fact that they didn't support/encourage the Congress to do what they each swear an oath to do each time they are elected/re-elected. However, as strongly as I believe this to be true, I would much rather be proven *wrong* over the long run, than to be sitting in the ruin of the nation and saying, "We told you so!!"
Basically the common refrain heard here, and elsewhere, is something along the lines of: "we know that he has committed countless impeachable offenses (and I am not going to listen them here, others have done a good job sketching them out already, if anyone doesn't know what they are at this point, use a search engine and find out), maybe even has come close to committing treason a couple of times.....," but we better not ask our only elected representatives in a position to do anything about it, to do anything about it.
The reason: Republicans will get a "bad name" over it, and people won't want to vote for them anymore. Which, in my view, is pretty much the largest collapse of principles in favor of 'pragmatism' that I have ever seen in this country.
More on this below.
If we do not -- if we let him continue to wreak havoc based on the premise above -- he may actually do serious damage to the country that will become unrepairable by any succeeding president and/or Congress.
At the very least, even if the impeachment process fails in the Senate, it will serve as warning to Obama (and to his controller Jarrett) that their actions -can- indeed be called to account before Congress and the American people.
And also at the very least, it will place an unremovable stain upon his place in history.
I am less concerned about any potential stain than I am about your first two points. Yes, in the remaining two years, since Congress, at the urging of many Republican voters and pundits, has taken Impeachment off of the table (forever it seems, if you listen to the 'reasons' why it can never be done), and are more likely than not to continue to give him what is essentially a blank check every year (as they have done since he became resident) via a steady stream of Omnibus spending bills and Continuing Resolutions, he has been given Free Reign to do whatever he chooses over these remaining two years. Absent Congress using the only Constitutional means to stop him, why wouldn't he?
And to your second point, yes, as soon as a serious effort got off the ground, his controllers would immediately be put on notice that the Free Reign is over. Just the act of getting it started in the House will have this effect.
There are those in this forum (most members, I sense) who will protest that we cannot do this because it will tear at race relations, incite riots, etc.
So be it. Blacks in America must learn that they do not rule -- the majority does.
Frankly, if an Obama impeachment and removal "sets back" race relations in America, I don't care one whit.
The process of impeachment is not intended to improve racial relations, nor should it be.
It is undertaken to rescue the nation from the irreparable damage that Obama and Jarrett are attempting to do.
Yes, at times 'race relations' are noted, the fear of civil unrest, etc. And I agree with your points above. But I think the louder refrain has to do more with the hand wringing about never getting a Republican elected in 2016 and beyond.
But about race relations vis a vis this unwillingness to Impeach, I find it an interesting contrast to the current Ferguson situation. Has there been any posts in this forum (or in any other 'conservative' forums) that are calling for the District Attorney to drum up a slew of charges against Officer Wilson to prevent riots and unrest? No, not that I have seen. People would never think that violating the principles of law & order, of an innocent man being sacrificed to quell some potential unrest, would be a good idea.... Never!! It just wouldn't be right!! Of course it wouldn't.... Yet, why are so many willing to sacrifice the good of the whole Nation (by allowing a tyrant free reign for 8 years to wreak havoc never before seen on this nation) in the interest of avoiding some potential unrest?? Why?? Is the well being of this Nation worth less than one police officer in Missouri?? Really??
It is to stop "the transformation of America".
That makes the impeachment process worth the trouble.
Exactly. It is WHY the process is in the Constitution to begin with. In some senses it is the hydrant & axe behind the glass door that says "Break Open in Case of Emergency." I've never seen a door that says, "Break Open in Case of Emergency, (but ONLY in cases in which you can be sure that people will still like you and support you in the future!!)"
What is Right to do, is Right to do; regardless of how 'popular' it may or may not be. What is Vital to do (to save the Nation from further destruction), is Vital to do, regardless of what others may think about it. I am pretty sure that most everyone here in this forum agrees to this, in virtually every part of their life, other than this....
Final thoughts:
Is Bill Clinton a "martyr" as a result of his impeachment?
Who the heck remembers what Andrew Johnson was impeached for, anyway?
No comment on the above, but I will add this.
Some say that since there are not enough R votes to convict in the Senate, then there is no point in trying.... In my opinion, that point of view basically condemns a really large swath of our fellow citizenry, and the Senators & Representatives (along with a cadre of brilliant Constitutional Conservative legal scholars and writers), in one fell swoop.
That point of view says: "Our fellow citizens are all too ignorant and unconscious to ever respond in large enough numbers to a sound & convincing case for Impeachment." And if that is so, and it may very well be, I say this: first, we have a pretty grave and terminal condition in the country, and secondly, if we don't have a population that can respond now, then we never will, because they certainly haven't been tracking in the direction of becoming less ignorant and more wide-awake over the past several decades.
That point of view also says: "We don't have enough people in the Constitutional Conservative movement (for lack of a better term) that are smart enough, and able enough, to make the case and communicate it to the American people." I say that I don't believe that to be true, and why not allow them to at least try?? Again, if we don't have them amongst our ranks at the present, how much better off will we be years from now??
Listening to the voice of this point of view is really giving in, throwing in the towel, and essentially saying: "We are sunk, we have a tyrant destroying the Nation, setting precedent for the next tyrant to complete the job, and we are all just so screwed because there is nothing that we can do to stop it....." Wow. How freakin' sad is that....
I say let us at least TRY to do what is Right, Just, and Vital to save this Nation that we all love and cherish, that we want to be in existence for our children, grandchildren, and generations yet unborn.
My faith in both our fellow citizens (in large enough numbers to make a difference), as well as our Constitutional Conservative leaders, is coupled with one other piece of "reality." And that is the element that drives the behavior of virtually every Senator in office, regardless of what party label they wear, and this is the desire to be re-elected. That trumps all for these grand opportunists. If they are made to feel that their re-election is in jeopardy from the outcry of their constituency, they will vote to convict regardless of if they are wearing a "D" or "R" on their jersey. Trust me on that, their 'loyalty' is to themselves and their bank accounts, not to a party or a despot sitting on top of it.
So it is in many ways a "now or never" proposition. Now is when a tyrant is in office, destroying the Nation. Now is when the 'opposition party' controls both chambers. Now is when we have the best chance of rallying our fellow citizens (as compared to years down the road when we are overrun with more third world refugees and have more and more people completely dependent on the government teat for their existence). Now is when there is still something left of the Nation to salvage (at least in my opinion), not after 2 more years of this tyrant and God knows how many years of the next one to come along....
