CIA Tortured Suspects 'Until the Point of Death': Report

[DCPatriot]

CIA Tortured Suspects 'Until the Point of Death': Report

Anybody who believes any report coming from the Obama's FBI or CIA is naive at best...or willfully ignorant.

This is simply to plant the seeds and amend the historical record so they can find a patsy for the cause of the rise of ISIS.

[Dexter]

You seem to be forgetting that the torture resulted in the gleaning of information that saved lives.  It wasn't just torture for the fun of it.

I still don't think it needed to go as far as it did. You can efficiently extract information without killing the person.

And you also seem to be unaware of the depth of evil of KSM.

He doesn't deserve your sympathy, Dex.

He killed thousands of innocent people.

Don't shed tears that he thought he was going to drown............ but didn't.

Some of them probably do deserve to be tortured to death, but I still don't think that makes it okay.

[Dexter]

CIA Tortured Suspects 'Until the Point of Death': Report

Anybody who believes any report coming from the Obama's FBI or CIA is naive at best...or willfully ignorant.

This is simply to plant the seeds and amend the historical record so they can find a patsy for the cause of the rise of ISIS.

I hope you're right, and that this sort of thing is not actually happening on our end.

[rb224315]

What about people that legitimately don't know anything? Soldiers in our military are informed on a need to know basis, so why would we assume it is any different for them? You don't need to torture somebody to the point of death to get them to divulge whatever information they have.

You seem to think that a large percentage of detainees were subjected to harsh interrogation when in fact, only a tiny percentage were--three, if the reports are accurate.  How is the decision to really lean on someone made?  When KSM is the subject and he's not talking and continues to refuse to talk even though you know he has information, he needs some inspiration.  We're not talking about the run-of-the mill soldier who knows nothing, we're talking about the guys who are most knowledgeable about enemy plans but divulged little or nothing.

[alicewonders]

Do you think Jesus would have agreed with this sentiment?

No.  Jesus would have said to turn the other cheek.  But Jesus was perfect and a supernatural human.  Most, if not ALL of us fall far short of the ideal of Jesus Christ. 

We live on a planet where Satan has power over the air - the unseen spirit realm.  It is all around us and we must always be on our guard because once you let evil get a toe-hold, you're as good as dead. 

 

[Dexter]

No.  Jesus would have said to turn the other cheek.  But Jesus was perfect and a supernatural human.  Most, if not ALL of us fall far short of the ideal of Jesus Christ. 

We live on a planet where Satan has power over the air - the unseen spirit realm.  It is all around us and we must always be on our guard because once you let evil get a toe-hold, you're as good as dead. 

So should we not do everything in our power as mere humans to live up to the ideals of Jesus as best as we are capable of?

[DCPatriot]

I hope you're right, and that this sort of thing is not actually happening on our end.

My point was also that there have been many debates whether waterboarding...giving one the illusion that they are drowning...is really torture.

Torturing somebody's psyche isn't even in the same sport as ripping off fingernails, etc..   just my opinion of course.   

[alicewonders]

So should we not do everything in our power as mere humans to live up to the ideals of Jesus as best as we are capable of?

Yes, we should.  But we each have our own gift.  For some very few, it's a gift of martyrdom, or devoting our entire lives to living to the highest ideals possible in the name of Jesus - like a missionary, nun, priest.  That's not to say the rest of us don't have our gifts - maybe teaching and molding young minds, maybe helping others - maybe being a warrior.  Warriors have to do things during war that the rest of us would never be able to do, it is their gift. 

If good people don't fight and live to fight another day - if good people don't have lots of babies and raise them up to be good people - then all is lost for us.  We have to survive in this world.  We try to be the best we can be, but there are monsters in the closet and under our children's beds and there are fire-breathing dragons that want to burn our homes down - there are vile, repulsive creatures that want to kill you and rape your wife and daughters.

We have to deal with it. 

[Dexter]

Yes, we should.  But we each have our own gift.  For some very few, it's a gift of martyrdom, or devoting our entire lives to living to the highest ideals possible in the name of Jesus - like a missionary, nun, priest.  That's not to say the rest of us don't have our gifts - maybe teaching and molding young minds, maybe helping others - maybe being a warrior.  Warriors have to do things during war that the rest of us would never be able to do, it is their gift. 

If good people don't fight and live to fight another day - if good people don't have lots of babies and raise them up to be good people - then all is lost for us.  We have to survive in this world.  We try to be the best we can be, but there are monsters in the closet and under our children's beds and there are fire-breathing dragons that want to burn our homes down - there are vile, repulsive creatures that want to kill you and rape your wife and daughters.

We have to deal with it.

I was more referring to your assertion that the world God created favors the strong over the morally superior. We can have warriors and destroy evil without bringing ourselves down to the level of torturing people (some possibly innocent) to death. Should we not strive for that moral superiority as Jesus would have? Perhaps we cannot attain it to the degree he did, but will God listen to excuses about why we didn't do the best we could?

[alicewonders]

I was more referring to your assertion that the world God created favors the strong over the morally superior. We can have warriors and destroy evil without bringing ourselves down to the level of torturing people (some possibly innocent) to death. Should we not strive for that moral superiority as Jesus would have? Perhaps we cannot attain it to the degree he did, but will God listen to excuses about why we didn't do the best we could?

I think if you do such a thing that God knows what is in your heart.  He will be the ultimate judge.  He knows if you took sick pleasure and he knows if you were overcome with the desperation of a dire situation while knowing innocent lives might be saved or not.  To try - to try your best to prevent such a disaster - to do everything humanly possible............absolutely, God will know what is in our hearts.  None of us can judge, none of us can ever know what is in someone's heart.

To torture for some kind of satisfaction is wrong.  God knows, he'll sort us all out.     

 

[Dexter]

I think the story of the life and death of Jesus Christ does a good job of showing us that doing the right thing is not always easy, and that in a world full of evil it can even have dire consequences. However doing the right thing no matter the cost and enduring the pain associated with that will earn you a place next to God.

[alicewonders]

I think the story of the life and death of Jesus Christ does a good job of showing us that doing the right thing is not always easy, and that in a world full of evil it can even have dire consequences. However doing the right thing no matter the cost and enduring the pain associated with that will earn you a place next to God.

I have no doubt about that.  We should all aspire to do the right thing in everything we do.  Still, we are bound to fail from time to time and even then God still loves us and offers us eternal life in his kingdom. 

As a person that has sinned PLENTY, I am humbled by that. 

[Oceander]

Of two suspects - very, very dirty guys - and just because it went "way beyond waterboarding" doesn't mean that they were tortured to death.  Some people here need to learn to take some things with a grain of salt and a dose of reality, ahem, Dexie.

[Fishrrman]

Dex wrote above:
[[ Some of the people being tortured are only suspected of being affiliated with terrorism. Torturing people unnecessarily only brings us down to their level. If we want to be the moral authority we need to act like the moral authority. ]]

Fishrrman's credo:
"Reality is what it is. It is not what we believe it to be."

The reality of The West vs. islam is that this is an existential conflict, and simply believing that "we want to be the moral authority [and] we need to act like the moral authority" won't be effective against those to whom "moral authority" means nothing. They have their own "moral authority" that they believe comes from their leader (who cannot be killed because he has been dead for 1400 years).

We have seen what their "moral authority" is all about -- heads scattered on the ground and people nailed to crosses.

In the end, the only way to destroy islamic ideology may be to crush it with a ruthlessness that rivals theirs.

You can turn away from this if you wish.
You can turn your cheek with the comforting thought that you posses "moral authority" over your enemy -- but all that's gonna get you with islam, is that it will cut the other side of your throat first.

[truth_seeker]

I think the story of the life and death of Jesus Christ does a good job of showing us that doing the right thing is not always easy, and that in a world full of evil it can even have dire consequences. However doing the right thing no matter the cost and enduring the pain associated with that will earn you a place next to God.

So you start a thread 8/21/14 informing us you are not Christian, but agnostic.

Now you would risk thousands of innocent lives, to spare an evil terrorist of feeling pain, of merely fear it.

I'm far more concerned about the lives the terrorists would take, and barely concerned a little bit that they might suffer pain, or merely fear it.

[Fishrrman]

Do you think Jesus would have agreed with this sentiment?

Jesus had the ability to rise from the dead.

The victims of islamic terrorists do not.

[Dexter]

So you start a thread 8/21/14 informing us you are not Christian, but agnostic.

I derived my argument from logic that Alice lives by so that I might better illustrate my point. Me not being a Christian doesn't mean I can't try to see things from a Christian perspective.

[musiclady]

I still don't think it needed to go as far as it did. You can efficiently extract information without killing the person.

Some of them probably do deserve to be tortured to death, but I still don't think that makes it okay.

Unless my English is really bad, "to the point of death" is NOT killing them...... it's just coming close.  In fact, the article states that there was a Dr. there to make sure they didn't go "too far."

KSM survived his "torture."  And we extracted important information from him because of it.

Killers of thousands.  Butcherers.  Beheaders. Rapers.  Mutilators.

They don't deserve to be treated kindly, Dex.

You live in an unreal world.

[musiclady]

Of two suspects - very, very dirty guys - and just because it went "way beyond waterboarding" doesn't mean that they were tortured to death.  Some people here need to learn to take some things with a grain of salt and a dose of reality, ahem, Dexie.

You are, ahem, correct.

[olde north church]

Maybe it is worth looking into all of the details? Also, monsters are created, not born.

<unshun>

You're delusional.

<shun>

[musiclady]

So should we not do everything in our power as mere humans to live up to the ideals of Jesus as best as we are capable of?

You are missing some basic theology, Dex.

Jesus and God are One Being.  Read about what Jesus did in the Old Testament.  He is the I AM. 

And He is coming back on a white horse with a Sword to take care of evil once and for all.

Don't mistake him for a milquetoast.  Getting rid of evil on earth is not anti-Jesus, and a very weak argument.

That's the theology of an agnostic, and not a good argument here.

[DCPatriot]

... He is coming back on a white horse with a Sword to take care of evil once and for all.

Reminds me of a meme I recently saw:

"Jesus is Coming...look busy!"   

[EC]

You are missing some basic theology, Dex.

Jesus and God are One Being.  Read about what Jesus did in the Old Testament.  He is the I AM. 

And He is coming back on a white horse with a Sword to take care of evil once and for all.

Don't mistake him for a milquetoast.  Getting rid of evil on earth is not anti-Jesus, and a very weak argument.

That's the theology of an agnostic, and not a good argument here.

If you see evil, it is your duty to deal with it. How is up to you.

The problem is doing so without being seduced into evil yourself. The Lord makes a fine sword and shield against such temptations. It's right there in the Lord's Prayer.

[Charlespg]

Do you think Jesus would have agreed with this sentiment?

Is Jesus fighting terrorists ? no so shut up

If the choice is 5000 dead innocents by a chemical weapons attack by isis  or to torture a muslim terrorist to death to get  information   to prevent such a scenario  .I will dammed well choose torture
 If the korananimals pull something like The  Beslen Massacre or a NBC Attack  here in the US  I will have no qualms  taking a page from
the  Waffen SS . finding the home villages  of the terrorists involved and killing every living thing in them along with every single family member to the 9th degree ,of the terrorists involved  .War crimes and the dammed whining  of the delicate flowers be dammed ...This is war for the future of humanity and human civilization. To  hell with the rules of engagement and  the human rights nonsense

[olde north church]

Is Jesus fighting terrorists ? no so shut up

If the choice is 5000 dead innocents by a chemical weapons attack by isis  or to torture a muslim terrorist to death to get  information   to prevent such a scenario  .I will dammed well choose torture
 If the korananimals pull something like The  Beslen Massacre or a NBC Attack  here in the US  I will have no qualms  taking a page from
the  Waffen SS . finding the home villages  of the terrorists involved and killing every living thing in them along with every single family member to the 9th degree ,of the terrorists involved  .War crimes and the dammed whining  of the delicate flowers be dammed ...This is war for the future of humanity and human civilization. To  hell with the rules of engagement and  the human rights nonsense

I agree.