As Both Parties Are Losing Voters, Gary Johnson Is Winning Them

[libertybele]

Bullspit.

See AbaraXas's response above.   What's important is that Johnson is the ONLY candidate who favors limited, liberty-centric, Constitutional government.   What's just as important is he's NOT TRUMP and NOT HILLARY.   

GO JOHNSON/WELD!!

No Johnson/Weld are not Hillary or Trump -- but really folks, has anyone done a shred of research on these two?  They are FOR OPEN BORDERS, FOR ABORTION, AGAINST EXPANDING MILITARY. FAVOR SAME SEX MARRIAGE  ... so how exactly is the Libertarian party offering candidates that are any better?  The only solid positive (at least that I can tell) is that they are PRO GUN.  Also, the Libertarian party as of now, has not qualified to be on the ballot in all 50 states.

Secondly, would they appoint conservative or liberal justices to SCOTUS?

http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm

I would hope that if anything, conservatives would be flocking to the Constitution Party.  As of now, they also have not qualified to be on the ballot in all 50 states.

[RAT Patrol]

No Johnson/Weld are not Hillary or Trump -- but really folks, has anyone done a shred of research on these two?  They are FOR OPEN BORDERS, FOR ABORTION, AGAINST EXPANDING MILITARY. FAVOR SAME SEX MARRIAGE  ... so how exactly is the Libertarian party offering candidates that are any better?  The only solid positive (at least that I can tell) is that they are PRO GUN.

Secondly, would they appoint conservative or liberal justices to SCOTUS?

http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm

Exactly!!!  Completely unacceptable to me.  Just one more #Never to add to my list.

#NeverTrump
#NeverHillary
#NeverJohnson

[ABX]

No Johnson/Weld are not Hillary or Trump -- but really folks, has anyone done a shred of research on these two?  They are FOR OPEN BORDERS, FOR ABORTION, AGAINST EXPANDING MILITARY. FAVOR SAME SEX MARRIAGE  ... so how exactly is the Libertarian party offering candidates that are any better?  The only solid positive (at least that I can tell) is that they are PRO GUN.

Secondly, would they appoint conservative or liberal justices to SCOTUS?

http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm

I'll repeat my comments above into one. The LP position can't be viewed through the glasses of how the traditional parties frame the issues.

Let's correct a few things.

--open borders Elimination of welfare programs that attract illegal aliens here to leech the system. That's the biggest draw for the criminal class. Easier legal immigration resulting in reducing crime associated with illegal immigration. Result, those coming here won't be coming illegally to leech the system but legally for mutual financial benefit.
--abortion on demand Returning the issue to the States. Not the best position, but fighting it on the federal level has failed for 30 years.
--same sex marriage Actual platform is to take government out of the marriage business entirely.
--reduce military spending 43% That doesn't necessarily mean weaker. This can be accomplished though wiser spending, reducing waste, and improving technology. No more $500 hammers.

I think a lot of people look at LP issues from the surface and through the glasses of the two major parties definitions of what they mean and the result. The LP isn't perfect in the least, but what they offer is a pendulum swing towards limited government and maximizing individual liberty- even if some of the issues associated with that draw the ire of the alt-Right Conservatives. The latter are seeing just the individual issue but are glad to have government grow and grow and grow to become their own hammer. When it gets down to it, at this point the Republicans and Democrats both want to grow the government for their own purposes and are both leading down a path of centralized authoritarian control.

Immigration is the perfect example. On the left, you have open borders and open welfare. On the right, you have a police state. The Libertarian approach is to cut off the welfare magnet that attracts the leeches and criminal class and make legal immigration easier. This means you would have fewer if any coming in for criminal reasons- immigration would return to a mutually beneficial arrangement where we would get people willing to work, not leech the system, for businesses who need them.   There wouldn't be this underground, almost slave economy of illegals.

To use the old water leak analogy.
Democrats would open the faucet and let more water in.
Republicans would duct tape the water leak then bail the water.  This doesn't actually fix the problem of a broken pipe, it just adds a temporary patch, but what is drawing them is still in place and will continue until the next pipe breaks.
Libertarians would cut off the water main (what supplies the water in the first place) and replace the pipe with one that works.

[RAT Patrol]

I'll repeat my comments above into one. The LP position can't be viewed through the glasses of how the traditional parties frame the issues.

Let's correct a few things.

--open borders Elimination of welfare programs that attract illegal aliens here to leech the system. That's the biggest draw for the criminal class. Easier legal immigration resulting in reducing crime associated with illegal immigration. Result, those coming here won't be coming illegally to leech the system but legally for mutual financial benefit.
--abortion on demand Returning the issue to the States. Not the best position, but fighting it on the federal level has failed for 30 years.
--same sex marriage Actual platform is to take government out of the marriage business entirely.
--reduce military spending 43% That doesn't necessarily mean weaker. This can be accomplished though wiser spending, reducing waste, and improving technology. No more $500 hammers.

I think a lot of people look at LP issues from the surface and through the glasses of the two major parties definitions of what they mean and the result. The LP isn't perfect in the least, but what they offer is a pendulum swing towards limited government and maximizing individual liberty- even if some of the issues associated with that draw the ire of the alt-Right Conservatives. The latter are seeing just the individual issue but are glad to have government grow and grow and grow to become their own hammer. When it gets down to it, at this point the Republicans and Democrats both want to grow the government for their own purposes and are both leading down a path of centralized authoritarian control.

Immigration is the perfect example. On the left, you have open borders and open welfare. On the right, you have a police state. The Libertarian approach is to cut off the welfare magnet that attracts the leeches and criminal class and make legal immigration easier. This means you would have fewer if any coming in for criminal reasons- immigration would return to a mutually beneficial arrangement where we would get people willing to work, not leech the system, for businesses who need them.   There wouldn't be this underground, almost slave economy of illegals.

To use the old water leak analogy.
Democrats would open the faucet and let more water in.
Republicans would duct tape the water leak then bail the water.  This doesn't actually fix the problem of a broken pipe, it just adds a temporary patch, but what is drawing them is still in place and will continue until the next pipe breaks.
Libertarians would cut off the water main (what supplies the water in the first place) and replace the pipe with one that works.

No thanks.  To be honest, that is too similar to the excuses Team Trump puts out.  I am not going with the "ignore all these bad things because of this one thing..." argument.

[ABX]

No thanks.  To be honest, that is too similar to the excuses Team Trump puts out.  I am not going with the "ignore all these bad things because of this one thing..." argument.

That's cool. I'm a strong believer in vote your conscience, vote your values. If that doesn't fit your values, there is absolutely no reason you should vote for it. No guilt tripping here. Your vote is your vote.

[jmyrlefuller]

If I want to get involved in a conversation, by the way, I'll invite myself. Until then, unless you have a legit reason to bring me into it that doesn't involve trolling, leave me out of it. Thank you.

Carry on.

[Jazzhead]

I'll repeat my comments above into one. The LP position can't be viewed through the glasses of how the traditional parties frame the issues.

Let's correct a few things.

--open borders Elimination of welfare programs that attract illegal aliens here to leech the system. That's the biggest draw for the criminal class. Easier legal immigration resulting in reducing crime associated with illegal immigration. Result, those coming here won't be coming illegally to leech the system but legally for mutual financial benefit.
--abortion on demand Returning the issue to the States. Not the best position, but fighting it on the federal level has failed for 30 years.
--same sex marriage Actual platform is to take government out of the marriage business entirely.
--reduce military spending 43% That doesn't necessarily mean weaker. This can be accomplished though wiser spending, reducing waste, and improving technology. No more $500 hammers.

I think a lot of people look at LP issues from the surface and through the glasses of the two major parties definitions of what they mean and the result. The LP isn't perfect in the least, but what they offer is a pendulum swing towards limited government and maximizing individual liberty- even if some of the issues associated with that draw the ire of the alt-Right Conservatives. The latter are seeing just the individual issue but are glad to have government grow and grow and grow to become their own hammer. When it gets down to it, at this point the Republicans and Democrats both want to grow the government for their own purposes and are both leading down a path of centralized authoritarian control.

Immigration is the perfect example. On the left, you have open borders and open welfare. On the right, you have a police state. The Libertarian approach is to cut off the welfare magnet that attracts the leeches and criminal class and make legal immigration easier. This means you would have fewer if any coming in for criminal reasons- immigration would return to a mutually beneficial arrangement where we would get people willing to work, not leech the system, for businesses who need them.   There wouldn't be this underground, almost slave economy of illegals.

To use the old water leak analogy.
Democrats would open the faucet and let more water in.
Republicans would duct tape the water leak then bail the water.  This doesn't actually fix the problem of a broken pipe, it just adds a temporary patch, but what is drawing them is still in place and will continue until the next pipe breaks.
Libertarians would cut off the water main (what supplies the water in the first place) and replace the pipe with one that works.

Very well said, AbaraXas.   I like the libertarian position because it's liberty-centric on both social and economic issues.  The Dems want the state out o the bedroom, but want it crawling all over the boardroom.   A lot of conservatives want the state be a social nanny. 

Besides,  Johnson and Weld represent more governmental executive experience - by far - than Clinton and Trump combined.   

Given the alternatives available,  how is Johnson/Weld not the obvious choice for a thinking American conservative?   I don't see why Johnson/Weld, with media and money, couldn't pull off the scheme that was posited the other day -  pick off a few deep red states like Utah and get the damn election kicked to the Congress.     

[libertybele]

Very well said, AbaraXas.   I like the libertarian position because it's liberty-centric on both social and economic issues.  The Dems want the state out o the bedroom, but want it crawling all over the boardroom.   A lot of conservatives want the state be a social nanny. 

Besides,  Johnson and Weld represent more governmental executive experience - by far - than Clinton and Trump combined.   

Given the alternatives available,  how is Johnson/Weld not the obvious choice for a thinking American conservative?   I don't see why Johnson/Weld, with media and money, couldn't pull off the scheme that was posited the other day -  pick off a few deep red states like Utah and get the damn election kicked to the Congress.   

The obvious choice for a thinking American conservative is to either write in Cruz or vote Castle of the Constitution party. I see a lot wrong with Johnson and as a conservative do not want to give away the sovereignty of our country by granting amnesty and allowing our borders to remain open. With the rise of ISIS and the threat of Sharia law already in our country; open borders and reducing our military is a recipe for disaster and sheer insanity.

I don't agree with means testing on social security nor the 23% national sales tax!!

I don't agree with the immediate withdrawal of troops from the Middle East as it will only further allow the spread of ISIS -- we are now living the result of Obama's troop withdrawal in the region.

Perhaps the most concerning; calls himself classical liberal; others prefer libertarian.  Really?  As a 'thinking' conservative, I should vote for him why???

#NeverTrump

#NeverJohnson

#NeverHillary

[jmyrlefuller]

The obvious choice for a thinking American conservative is to either write in Cruz or vote Castle of the Constitution party. I see a lot wrong with Johnson and as a conservative do not want to give away the sovereignty of our country by granting amnesty and allowing our borders to remain open. With the rise of ISIS and the threat of Sharia law already in our country; open borders and reducing our military is a recipe for disaster and sheer insanity.

I don't agree with means testing on social security nor the 23% national sales tax!!

I don't agree with the immediate withdrawal of troops from the Middle East as it will only further allow the spread of ISIS -- we are now living the result of Obama's troop withdrawal in the region.

Perhaps the most concerning; calls himself classical liberal; others prefer libertarian.  Really?  As a 'thinking' conservative, I should vote for him why???

#NeverTrump

#NeverJohnson

#NeverHillary

Because this election is practically already lost and if you're going to throw away your vote, I think the best move would be to do it in a way that makes an impact.

If you want to vote for Castle, go ahead. He's running, but I don't see him having much of an impact. As I said before, writing in Cruz or any other non-candidate is simply going to get ignored.

At least Johnson and the Libertarian Party have some things in common with us, and most of what we do not have in common, the courts have already decided against us. If we're going to make progress on conservative ideals as reducing the size, scope and power of the central government, the Libertarians can be strong allies. Johnson also has the largest supporter base outside of Clinton or Trump, and I know that that kind of argument isn't the end-all and be-all, but it matters.

[RAT Patrol]

Because this election is practically already lost and if you're going to throw away your vote, I think the best move would be to do it in a way that makes an impact.

If you want to vote for Castle, go ahead. He's running, but I don't see him having much of an impact. As I said before, writing in Cruz or any other non-candidate is simply going to get ignored.

At least Johnson and the Libertarian Party have some things in common with us, and most of what we do not have in common, the courts have already decided against us. If we're going to make progress on conservative ideals as reducing the size, scope and power of the central government, the Libertarians can be strong allies. Johnson also has the largest supporter base outside of Clinton or Trump, and I know that that kind of argument isn't the end-all and be-all, but it matters.

I am not going to dismiss my key issues just because the courts have overreached.  No white flags here.  Libertarians are unrealistic, they miss the core point made by the framers that liberty would only work if the people put restraints on themselves through morality and religion.  Liberty is not licentiousness.  Ordered liberty gives all people the basic rights so that they can make their case to their fellow citizens, they can move if they must to locations with laws they prefer.  A free-for-all puts chains on all according to the lowest common denominator.  It cannot be sustained. 

I respect those whose conscience informs them that voting Johnson is best for them.  For me, #NeverJohnson.

[Suppressed]

... the core point made by the framers that liberty would only work if the people put restraints on themselves through morality and religion.

@RAT Patrol

Do you assert that morality and religion are the realm of, and to be guided by, government?

Or are they the responsibility of the individual?

The Libertarian Party asserts the latter. 

[biff]

15% in polls gets Johnson in the debates. He will steal 5%, 10%, ? of Burnies bail outs and swing a potential close race to donnie. They are experts in close race recount wins but that will work only in very close races.

As much as I hate donnie, I hate the Klintons worse.

Johnson has gotta get a 15% plus though to make it stick.

[RAT Patrol]

@RAT Patrol

Do you assert that morality and religion are the realm of, and to be guided by, government?

Or are they the responsibility of the individual?

The Libertarian Party asserts the latter.

I assert this:

"The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty." --Fisher Ames

"In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate, look to his character. The scriptures teach that rulers should be men who rule in the fear of God, able men, men of truth, hating covetousness. It is to the neglect of this rule that we must ascribe the multified frauds, breaches of trust, and embezzlement of public property which tarnish the character of our country and disgrace government. When a citizen gives his vote to a man of known immorality, he abuses his civic responsibility, he sacrifices not only his interest, but that of his neighbor; he betrays the interest of his country." Noah Webster, 1823

...inasmuch as we know that by His Divine law, nations, like individuals, are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land, may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people?... - Abraham Lincoln -

"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites--in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity;--in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption;--in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon the will and appetite is placed somewhere: and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds can not be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke

"[A] good moral character is the first essential in a man... and your conduct here may stamp your character through life. It is therefore highly important that you should endeavor not only to be learned but virtuous." --George Washington

"Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them." --Joseph Story

"Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness." -- President George Washington, 1753

"Can the liberties of a nation be sure when we remove their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people, that these liberties are the gift of God?" -- Thomas Jefferson.

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -- John Adams

"The Constitution, on this hypothesis, is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please. It should be remembered, as an axiom of eternal truth in politics, that whatever power in any government is independent, is absolute also; in theory only, at first, while the spirit of the people is up, but in practice, as fast as that relaxes. Independence can be trusted nowhere but with the people in mass. They are inherently independent of all but moral law." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Judge Spencer Roane, 1819.

The twin pillars of libertarianism is essentially sex and drugs.  They believe no lines should be drawn in those areas at all.  No thanks.  I believe freedom does not thrive that way, rather it would be eventually destroyed for all but the most corrupt among us.  Reread the first quote.  No I am not advocating legislating religion.  But as morality and religion informs the individual, it affects their judgement of who they pick as their representatives and what laws they support.  No theology.  No violation of basic God given rights.  But neither does liberty mean unchained from moral law (See Thomas Jefferson above -- they are independent of all but moral law).

[Fantom]

Vote for the pro-choice LPs if one wants. Where's folks principles now?

Hang me before I conside it.

Yes, we know, Trump isn't pro-life, well Gary Johnson sure is nothing compared to Mike Pence. Pro-life record proven.

Constitution Party is the only non-trump/Hilary choice.

Or not vote top of the ticket.

[libertybele]

Because this election is practically already lost and if you're going to throw away your vote, I think the best move would be to do it in a way that makes an impact.

If you want to vote for Castle, go ahead. He's running, but I don't see him having much of an impact. As I said before, writing in Cruz or any other non-candidate is simply going to get ignored.

At least Johnson and the Libertarian Party have some things in common with us, and most of what we do not have in common, the courts have already decided against us. If we're going to make progress on conservative ideals as reducing the size, scope and power of the central government, the Libertarians can be strong allies. Johnson also has the largest supporter base outside of Clinton or Trump, and I know that that kind of argument isn't the end-all and be-all, but it matters.

I understand what you are saying and agree that they have commonalities such as reducing the size and scope of government and giving back power to the states and indeed that is very much needed. The more critical and in fact crucial concern is at the federal level.  Reducing our military and withdrawing troops in conjunction with leaving our borders open and granting amnesty to millions is absolutely insane. Take a look at Europe; Germany is a complete mess with numerous rapes and murders by immigrants and refugees and a priest was just beheaded over in France by ISIS.  This election is going to either open the door for the same to happen here or close the door. There are of course other critical issues such as the Supreme Court, but IMHO, if we reduce our military and leave our borders open we won't have to worry about giving power back to the states or placing conservative justices...we will have lost our country. God willing we will maintain our majority in the house and senate and hopefully place a few more conservatives in Congress. 

Unfortunately, the reality is it's a roll of the dice to vote for Johnson, Castle or write in Cruz.  The way I see it voting for any of those three is the only way that there may be a very very slim chance of denying Trump or Hillary the majority, especially since neither the Constitution party or the Libertarian party is on the ballot in all 50 states.

Cruz stood before God, country and whole lot of Trump supporters and spoke out in the name of freedom. He was booed, jeered at and denied access into a suite after his speech! All because he spoke of freedom and told people to vote their conscience and down ballot.  I still stand with Cruz and will write him in on the ballot.

[Frank Cannon]

Exactly!!!  Completely unacceptable to me.  Just one more #Never to add to my list.

#NeverTrump
#NeverHillary
#NeverJohnson

Not for me. At this point I am for burning down the system. I'm voting for Johnson because it may just be enough to send this election into the House. Then a whole new hell opens up. Love the idea.

[Frank Cannon]

So,  In the "Make America Great Again" world, what is the zeitgeist of a vote for Gary Johnson?   Is it a vote for Hillary or a vote for Trump?

Excellent point.

[Jazzhead]

Drew Clark:  The conservative case for Gary Johnson and Bill Weld, not Donald Trump and Mike Pence

These are among the issues in which the Johnson-Weld campaign put forth positions starkly different from those of their rivals:

•They have a real appreciation that the Constitution imposes limits upon the powers of the executive.
•They support policies that welcome immigrants instead of deporting them.
•They support term limits for all elected leaders.
•They believe that free trade is the engine of the free market, and that our economy will suffer from 35 percent tariffs or from managed trade.
•They want to cut the federal budget by at least 20 percent. They will do this by turning a skeptical eye toward any proposal spending your tax dollars.
Yes, but what about Gov. Johnson's support for marijuana and for same-sex marriage?

Gov. Johnson believes that each state should have the right to legalize and regulate marijuana, just as is currently the case with alcohol. As governor of New Mexico, Johnson supported legalization of marijuana in 1999, and a majority of the country now supports this position. As with alcohol today, our nation is better served if this decision is left to the states.

A central premise of libertarianism is that individuals should be free to live their lives without coercion from the state. This is why laws against consenting sexual behavior of adults are inappropriate.

Respect for individual liberty. Respect for free markets.   Respect for federalism.  Respect for the Constitution. That ought to be appealing to a conservative, don't you think?     

[Chosen Daughter]

So called "conservatives" going to LP Johnson is a joke, since his positions are mostly very liberal.

But while their lack of critical thinking might have previously been up for discussion, it is now openly displayed.

Here is an LP platform refresher for Jmerlyfuller, from memory:

--open borders
--abortion on demand
--same sex marriage
--reduce military spending 43%

Hey!!!!!

[libertybele]

Drew Clark:  The conservative case for Gary Johnson and Bill Weld, not Donald Trump and Mike Pence


Respect for individual liberty. Respect for free markets.   Respect for federalism.  Respect for the Constitution. That ought to be appealing to a conservative, don't you think?     

Of course respect for the Constitution.  However, I am NOT for insanity; open borders, amnesty and a reduced military.

[Chosen Daughter]

Of course respect for the Constitution.  However, I am NOT for insanity; open borders, amnesty and a reduced military.

No, couldn't go there either.  I think its a sit it out election.

[libertybele]

No, couldn't go there either.  I think its a sit it out election.

Vote down ballot.

[Chosen Daughter]

Vote down ballot.

Yes

[Mesaclone]

Trump is not only not losing voters, he is rapidly gaining them. Contrary to the title of this thread. He has hit 47, 48, and 51 percent totals in 3 of the most recent new polls. Those numbers are unprecedented for him until now, demonstrating the growing share of the electorate that is moving his way.

[Resp3]

@RAT Patrol

Do you assert that morality and religion are the realm of, and to be guided by, government?

Or are they the responsibility of the individual?

The Libertarian Party asserts the latter.

And as they have done that - they have abandoned ALL moral absolutes that the States and the FedGov had in place that protected the family. Laws and policies that benefitted you and me. And that benefitted the states and the nation.

Libertarians sided with liberals as they denounced that marriages have any place in our government. As a result - Families have been harmed and the Welfare State has flourished. Libertarians sided with liberals as they denounced that marriages have any place in our government. As a result - Families have been harmed and queer marriages are not only legal, but are replacing fundamental and Constitutional freedoms of religion.

Libertarians are not just foolish and naïve as they seek to deconstruct God from our government; they are as evil as any liberal, communistic, Marxist Obamatron.