Author Topic: Did Jesus Christ really exist?  (Read 8412 times)

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rangerrebew

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Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« on: December 24, 2018, 06:08:08 pm »
Did Jesus Christ really exist?

By RIGOBERTO D. TIGLAO

December 24, 2018
 

RIGOBERTO D. TIGLAO

IT is incontestable in this modern age that science has been the singularly most powerful tool for us to understand reality, to separate what’s false and mythical, and what’s true and factual (or historical). Science just in the past 100 years of modern human’s 200,000 years of existence, for instance, has unlocked the mysteries of the atom and of the human genome, so we understand now that the world is not composed of “earth, air, water and fire” nor are we just a more sophisticated form of dust.

But science has been employed not only to understand matter but also human society, through such disciplines as archaeology, philology, literary and textual criticism, and sociology. So, it is not surprising at all that the social sciences have been used to study that aspect of human society that is so significant to humans: religion. These social sciences have been used to study the central figure of Christianity, Jesus Christ, whose birth we are supposedly celebrating tomorrow. Similar studies have been used to study the Muhammad of Islam. (See my column “Was Islam a Christian sect?” in October 2013).

https://www.manilatimes.net/did-jesus-christ-really-exist/487189/

Online roamer_1

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2018, 01:40:18 am »
Quote from: the Article
Probably 40 percent of scholars who have studied Christianity without the blinkers of religious dogma have concluded that a Jew named Yeshua who was deified as Jesus Christ (Yeshua the Messiah) never existed, and was merely the invention of the proselytizer Greek-Jew Paul, in practically the same way the ancient Egyptians concocted the god-man Osiris or the Greeks, the demi-god Hercules.

Utter nonsense... There is probably no one in ancient history who is more provable and identifiable... Obviously those 'scholars' without 'blinkers of religious dogma' have blinkers of the same kind of their own.

Offline Absalom

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2018, 02:27:56 am »
From the Greeks (Archimedes, Euclid, Pythagoras......) to the Scholastics of the High Middle Ages
to the Renaissance (Copernicus, Galileo. Kepler........) to the pre-Moderns (Newton, Rutherford, Watt........ ) scientists produced the Laws of Science which still govern our physical world.
What have the Moderns given us???
Theories such as Evolution and Relativity w/all the practical impact of a rock.
Their latest load of manure is global warming and now Christianity.
Where would we be w/o these assholes????????????????

Offline 240B

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 02:29:40 am »
The Rabbis I know and have known recognize that there was a Jew named Yeshua. However, the way he is depicted in the Bible is inaccurate. He was a normal Jew with family and at least one brother. And he had a thing with Mary Magdalene.

He was not 'without sin' and was prone to fits of anger. Overturning the tables at the temple was one such outburst.

His original intent was to adhere to Judaism as it is written in the Torah without the interpretation of the Rabbis. Essentially, he was the first Rabbi of Reform Judaism.

This is only one interpretation, one opinion among many. So, don't get upset about it. By the way, if Jesus was actually born on December 25, then New Years Day would be the day of his 'brit milah'. January 1 would be the day that he formally joined the Covenant of Abraham as a Jew.
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Offline Machiavelli

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2018, 02:35:35 am »
From what I've read, Joshua Bar David indeed did exist. He was what we would call today, a rabbi. He was a Jewish activist who thought that the Jewish hierarchy had become corrupt. He wanted organized Judaism to return to its roots and be more responsible to peoples' needs. The hierarchy opposed him.

Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2018, 02:36:47 am »
   ....YES.  End of issue.  Case closed. 

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2018, 02:37:10 am »
Utter nonsense... There is probably no one in ancient history who is more provable and identifiable... Obviously those 'scholars' without 'blinkers of religious dogma' have blinkers of the same kind of their own.
If He didn't exist, why do they seem to spend so much time looking for The Body? :silly:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2018, 08:05:20 am »
The Rabbis I know and have known recognize that there was a Jew named Yeshua. However, the way he is depicted in the Bible is inaccurate. He was a normal Jew with family and at least one brother. And he had a thing with Mary Magdalene.

He was not 'without sin' and was prone to fits of anger. Overturning the tables at the temple was one such outburst.

His original intent was to adhere to Judaism as it is written in the Torah without the interpretation of the Rabbis. Essentially, he was the first Rabbi of Reform Judaism.

This is only one interpretation, one opinion among many. So, don't get upset about it. By the way, if Jesus was actually born on December 25, then New Years Day would be the day of his 'brit milah'. January 1 would be the day that he formally joined the Covenant of Abraham as a Jew.

If the Brit Hadasha is correct, and I do believe it is, he was indeed a rabbi, itinerant, and without a master... I disagree that he was a proponent of Reformed Judaism, or any of the various sects - And in fact, challenged the Pharisees on every point - Many of his miracles were directly challenging the Pharisees and Sadducees.

His doctrine was Torah - And only Torah - Defying the Wisdom of the Elders... Pointing out that they were willing to break Torah to preserve their traditions.

Christian tradition supposes his birth on Dec 25th, but careful reading would likely put his birth upon Sukkot, with his brit upon the Great Eighth Day (rejoicing in his entering into the covenant) - Some would argue he was born upon Yom Teruah, but Sukkot is a better match in prophecy and the description of his birth (No room at the inn, laid him in a sukkot, tabernacled among us, temporary dwelling in a human form)... No doubt, if he is who he claims, his birth, like his death, would be heralded by the prophetic nature of the Holy Days of YHWH.

So I sing my carols at harvest time.  :)

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2018, 08:06:25 am »
If He didn't exist, why do they seem to spend so much time looking for The Body? :silly:

I am pretty sure they ain't ever gonna find it.  :cool:

Offline Skeptic

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2018, 08:50:45 am »
Secular proof of Jesus Christ's existence is best found
in a report to Emperor Tiberius Caesar from the
General Pontius Pilate written during Pilate's duty
as Governor over the recently conquered Judae.

This report was found in a Roman Imperial library
and is rumored to be a part of Vatican records.


Sorry...
I won't accept.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2018, 09:58:01 am »
I am pretty sure they ain't ever gonna find it.  :cool:
Oh,He'll be back.....
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2018, 10:27:41 am »
Secular proof of Jesus Christ's existence is best found
in a report to Emperor Tiberius Caesar from the
General Pontius Pilate written during Pilate's duty
as Governor over the recently conquered Judae.

This report was found in a Roman Imperial library
and is rumored to be a part of Vatican records.


Sorry...
Wow.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2018, 03:38:56 pm »
Oh,He'll be back.....

Oh, I know... And soon.  happy77

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2018, 05:02:04 pm »
   ....YES.  End of issue.  Case closed.

@LegalAmerican

WRONG! The only thing closed is your mind.

I have nothing but contempt for organized religion because it is just one more form of slavery,but even I believe there was a living man named Jesus that came to be known for all the things claimed in the Bible,regardless of if he did it all,did some of it,or did none of it. Myths are often created because influential people think they are needed for the "betterment" of society. As always,the "devil is in the details". Look at how Hitler and Stalin were both made into demigods as examples of this.

Any time your religious icons can't stand a little scrutiny,you need new religious icons.
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Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2018, 06:39:39 am »
@LegalAmerican

WRONG! The only thing closed is your mind.

I have nothing but contempt for organized religion because it is just one more form of slavery,but even I believe there was a living man named Jesus that came to be known for all the things claimed in the Bible,regardless of if he did it all,did some of it,or did none of it. Myths are often created because influential people think they are needed for the "betterment" of society. As always,the "devil is in the details". Look at how Hitler and Stalin were both made into demigods as examples of this.

Any time your religious icons can't stand a little scrutiny,you need new religious icons.


Interesting.  I don't go to any church, nor belong to one, right now.  I have a very open mind. I am NOT a Bible thumper.

I find it interesting that you believe there was a JESUS..then what are you arguing about?  That is what I said. Short and to the point.

 I totally support my president TRUMP.  Some on here, think he is not HOLY ENOUGH, to be president.  I am not one of those.  I am practical and see with open eyes..very well.  I am not A "do-gooder", that messes up people.  Wow, are you talking to the wrong person.  lol

Actually, I can't stand the N.T.'S as they put themselves on some pedestal of virtue.  They are more Christian & better than my president...don't you know.  I just didn't feel like talking about religion on here. I was told...we can't.  Boring to me, "was there Jesus",  blah blah blah......  Talk to the OP about this, not me.

I know about Hitler.  He had stomach problems and ate a lot of oatmeal.  Stalin?  Caused a lot of starvation in Ukraine.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2018, 04:10:55 pm »

 

Quote
I find it interesting that you believe there was a JESUS..then what are you arguing about? 

I believe the legend came from a real man,but he was NOT the son of God,and when he died he started taking a nice,long dirt nap. He ain't coming back any more than you are.

Quote
I know about Hitler.  He had stomach problems and ate a lot of oatmeal.  Stalin?  Caused a lot of starvation in Ukraine.

Oh,they both did a LOT more than that. In fact,they started as allies,and remained allies right up to the time Hitler invaded Russia. That was the same day that Hitler became a monster overnight,and fascism suddenly became a right wing terror movement instead of what it rightfully is,a branch of communism.
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2018, 04:37:19 pm »
Tacitus, Suetonius, and the Historical Jesus

One of the earliest and most informative references to Jesus in a non-Christian source appears in the Annals of Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian writing about AD 115-117. This would be about 85 years or so after the crucifixion of Jesus. Tacitus made his comment about Christ in the context of discussing Nero’s blaming the Christians for the fire of Rome in AD 64, which Nero was rumored to have started himself:

Therefore, to scotch the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians [Chrestianos]. Christus, the founder of the name [auctor nominis], had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator [procuratorem] Pontius Pilatus, and a pernicious superstition [exitiabilis superstitio] was checked for the moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue.1

There is a considerable body of literature on this short passage in Tacitus, with the vast majority of scholars agreeing that it gives authentic information about the historical Jesus. Those who argue that Jesus never existed (called “Jesus mythicists” or simply “mythicists”) have attempted to explain away this reference in two ways. (1) Mythicists commonly argue that the sentence referring to Jesus was an addition to the passage by a later Christian scribe (such additions are called interpolations). This explanation is typically the first line of defense. (2) Mythicists also often argue that if the reference to Christ is genuine, then it is still not independent testimony to the existence of Jesus because Tacitus would have gotten his information about Jesus entirely from Christians, who had invented the myth as propaganda. I have discussed the theory that Jesus never existed in another article.2 Here we will consider the two arguments just mentioned for setting aside Tacitus’s reference to Christ as evidence for his historical existence.  .  .  .

http://bib.irr.org/tacitus-suetonius-and-historical-jesus
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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2018, 04:42:23 pm »
I believe the legend came from a real man,but he was NOT the son of God,and when he died he started taking a nice,long dirt nap. He ain't coming back any more than you are.


"God is dead"

-Nietzsche, 1875-




"Nietzsche is dead"

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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2018, 08:29:24 pm »
Secular proof of Jesus Christ's existence is best found
in a report to Emperor Tiberius Caesar from the
General Pontius Pilate written during Pilate's duty
as Governor over the recently conquered Judae.

This report was found in a Roman Imperial library
and is rumored to be a part of Vatican records.


Sorry...

Why would you post something that is so universally derided as fraudulent? You undermine any genuine argument in favor of the existence of an historical Jesus in doing so. The "Acta Pilate" was clearly not written by Pilate nor does it likely originate from a time anywhere near the life of Jesus. Citing such a thing is ludicrous in any serious discussion of Jesus historical authenticity.

Personally, I'd say there's little doubt that there was an historical Jesus...as there was an historical Mohammed and likely an historical Buddha as well. Their legends, gospels, myths and stories are most certainly fantasized reflections of real men who had a profound impact on the people around them...but as certainly, most of who these men really were is lost and can never be recovered. Jesus was almost certainly a married rabbi who was executed by the Romans due to his radical teachings...whether or not his views were inspired by god is a purely religious question and nothing exists historically to either confirm or deny such magical assertions.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 08:30:41 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2018, 08:36:13 pm »
...Jesus was almost certainly a married rabbi who was executed by the Romans due to his radical teachings...whether or not his views were inspired by god is a purely religious question and nothing exists historically to either confirm or deny such magical assertions.

What was radical about his teaching?

There is no contemporary (or later) evidence that suggests that he was married, beyond "well, he must have been".  His cousin John wasn't married.

And, there is contemporary evidence of miracles.  That would make him something other than an everyday rabbi. 
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 08:37:22 pm by Sanguine »

Offline Skeptic

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2018, 08:56:43 pm »
Why would you post something that is so universally derided as fraudulent? You undermine any genuine argument in favor of the existence of an historical Jesus in doing so. The "Acta Pilate" was clearly not written by Pilate nor does it likely originate from a time anywhere near the life of Jesus. Citing such a thing is ludicrous in any serious discussion of Jesus historical authenticity.

Personally, I'd say there's little doubt that there was an historical Jesus...as there was an historical Mohammed and likely an historical Buddha as well. Their legends, gospels, myths and stories are most certainly fantasized reflections of real men who had a profound impact on the people around them...but as certainly, most of who these men really were is lost and can never be recovered. Jesus was almost certainly a married rabbi who was executed by the Romans due to his radical teachings...whether or not his views were inspired by god is a purely religious question and nothing exists historically to either confirm or deny such magical assertions.

If the letter was a fake then who wrote it and when? If they don't know who and when then what evidence is there to indicate the letter was fraudulent? The letter is well written, you can't deny that, fake or not.
I won't accept.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2018, 11:39:02 pm »
 333cleo
If the letter was a fake then who wrote it and when? If they don't know who and when then what evidence is there to indicate the letter was fraudulent? The letter is well written, you can't deny that, fake or not.

I can list you an endless number of refutations of the authenticity of the letter...no serious theologians consider it to have any chance whatsoever of being the writings of Pilate. It could have been written by anyone...the burden is not to prove the identity of the forger...all historians need do is to identify that is IS a forgery.

I could write a letter and randomly deposit it somewhere with a claim that it was written by Jesus...the fact that no one could prove it was I that wrote it does not lend it authenticity. Nor does it matter how well I write such a letter.

Put plainly, this is not a letter from Pilate about Jesus. It would be quite fascinating if it were...but, undoubtedly, it is not.

The first real non-Christian reference of Jesus comes from Tacitus...and he simply states a bit of what the Christians themselves claimed. As the two references from Josephus are almost certainly “additions” made by later Christians, you simply won’t find anything pre the 115 AD time frame.
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2018, 11:45:24 pm »
What was radical about his teaching?

There is no contemporary (or later) evidence that suggests that he was married, beyond "well, he must have been".  His cousin John wasn't married.

And, there is contemporary evidence of miracles.  That would make him something other than an everyday rabbi.

First, there are no contemporary writings about Jesus....period.

There ARE Gospels that reference Mary being Jesus companion...most important companion to be precise...and that he kissed her on the lips often. In the culture of that era, that is a clear reference to marital status.

As for miracles...there are miracle stories of Tiberius and other Emperors healing the sick...not to mention Simon Magus and many others...it was a time of deep superstition. But keep in mind...NONE of these stories were written contemporaneously, be they about Jesus or other “magic” workers.

Heck, Roman writers like Celsus claimed Jesusvwas fathered by a Roman soldier named Pantera...and there’s no way to prove or disprove that either.

Either you believe on faith alone...or you don’t. There IS no historical evidence that supports...or detracts...from claims of divinity.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 11:49:54 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline Skeptic

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2018, 11:53:21 pm »
333cleo
I can list you an endless number of refutations of the authenticity of the letter...no serious theologians consider it to have any chance whatsoever of being the writings of Pilate. It could have been written by anyone...the burden is not to prove the identity of the forger...all historians need do is to identify that is IS a forgery.

I could write a letter and randomly deposit it somewhere with a claim that it was written by Jesus...the fact that no one could prove it was I that wrote it does not lend it authenticity. Nor does it matter how well I write such a letter.

Put plainly, this is not a letter from Pilate about Jesus. It would be quite fascinating if it were...but, undoubtedly, it is not.

The first real non-Christian reference of Jesus comes from Tacitus...and he simply states a bit of what the Christians themselves claimed. As the two references from Josephus are almost certainly “additions” made by later Christians, you simply won’t find anything pre the 115 AD time frame.

If proven fraudulent then what is that evidence, you can't merely take someones word for it.
I won't accept.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2018, 01:11:34 am »
If proven fraudulent then what is that evidence, you can't merely take someones word for it.

https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2012/05/11/the-letter-of-pilate-to-tiberius/

Fine, i’ll Cite just one of countless refutations...follow the above link.

To summarize:
1. Earliest drafts known are written in Renaissance style Latin not Roman colloquial usage.
2. No copies of the  text are known prior to the 14 th century.
3. It has Zpilate speaking like a latter day born again Christian calling Jesus divine and other such common Renaissance era Christian phraseology.
4. Finally, no early Christian apologists refer to this specific evidence...which they absolutely would have cited during the 300’s when the great Pagan v Christian arguments were rather continuous.
5. The letter was prompted by a brief mention in the Gospel of Nicodemus to a letter from Pilate...it’s hardly a coincidence a letter written in Renaissance Latin with standard Christian terminology just appears out of the blue after 1300 years of absence.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 01:12:43 am by Mesaclone »
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