Author Topic: BREAKING: The TRUMP CLASS BATTLESHIPS are coming to the U.S. Navy, with the first one being named t  (Read 2575 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,847
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
Quote
MeganC...

No, just what you think a battleship must be is outmoded.

And where is the rule that a battleship must conform to any particular model in order to be a first rate ship of the line?

A battleship is essentially the biggest, most heavily armed, most heavily armored, most fearsome ship in the fleet.

A modern battleship necessarily will be armed with missiles and modern guns. Sixteen inch rifles are nice but obsolete. No one is legitimately proposing to bring them back.

But you can arm a modern armored battleship with a variety of modern artillery, modern missiles, and modern defenses. And that is what is being proposed.


No one here is indicating the construction of WWII designed battleships.  Why do you keep bringing that nonsense up?

But the fact remains that battleships, because of their size and lethality were vulnerable and not a sound investment in WWII.  A fully updated battleship, with all the most current updates in design and technology does not refute that simple truism that they are obsolete.  They have nowhere near the lethality of a fleet aircraft carrier.   

And the cost of a Ford class carrier is less than that of a Trump class battleship, so this only compounds the idiocy.  I'll take an aircraft carrier over a Trump class battleship all day long.  128 VLS cells/missiles versus endless ability to project lethality hundreds of miles away, with the ability to support ground operations hundreds of miles away, versus the Trump class ship going 15-25 miles from the ship. To imply a battleship serves to add anything is ludicrous when you consider cost.

Again, the DDG(X) being scrapped for the Trump idiocy, you could build 3.5 of them versus one battleship, and combined they would deliver 3 TIMES+++ the lethality.

And a battleship is NOT the most fearsome ship in the fleet, not to enemy military leaders.  You really do not know what you are talking about.

But we agree on most things, so I still love you my friend.

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,847
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
And whoever it was upstream crying that we are woefully deficient in our navy...boy did you drink the Koolaid. 

You know, there is a communist under every bed too.  I can't tell you how many times I heard that back in the 50s.  Fact is, there are communists today in the USA every which way you look, they call themselves Democrats.

Now, when you look at the lethality of our navy, all the navies combined in the world do not equal the lethality of our navy.  We are spending as a nation for defense more than the next 20? 25? nations combined in defense and it still is not enough.  BULLSH*T!!!!!

And whoever thinks a submarine is more lethal than an aircraft carrier, uggh, very clueless.  In today's navy, you cannot think of the fleet aircraft carrier as a separate item, it is the combination of ships referred to as the carrier strike group, or task group with the fleet aircraft carrier as the capital ship and the screen as ships to protect it from attack. 

Carrier Strike Group(besides the fleet carrier)

                                                         # in a                     VLS
                                                         Group
Guided Missile Cruiser                             1-2                      120/ship
Guided Missile Destroyer                         3-5                       80-112/ship
Submarine                                             1, or more

So, adding but 8 more VLS for the Trump idiocy just does not make any sense versus building 3+ DDG(X) ships for the same cost.

AGAIN, ANYONE IN CONGRESS SUPPORTING THIS IDIOCY SHOULD GET PRIMARIED.  AND ANYONE WITH STARS ON HIS COLLAR INVOLVED IN THIS IDIOCY SHOULD BE RETIRED FROM THE SERVICE.

Not to mention that the stinking Democommies can use this as one more issue against the do nothing Republicans to oust them from Congress.  Our Congress does not need more Jon Ossoffs in their haloed halls, or my favorites, Ilhan Omars, an illegal alien and Jasmine Crocketts, a mouthy empty suit with no substance.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2025, 04:00:33 am by jafo2010 »

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
And whoever it was upstream crying that we are woefully deficient in our navy...boy did you drink the Koolaid. 

You know, there is a communist under every bed too.  I can't tell you how many times I heard that back in the 50s.  Fact is, there are communists today in the USA every which way you look, they call themselves Democrats.

Now, when you look at the lethality of our navy, all the navies combined in the world do not equal the lethality of our navy.  We are spending as a nation for defense more than the next 20? 25? nations combined in defense and it still is not enough.  BULLSH*T!!!!!

And whoever thinks a submarine is more lethal than an aircraft carrier, uggh, very clueless.  In today's navy, you cannot think of the fleet aircraft carrier as a separate item, it is the combination of ships referred to as the carrier strike group, or task group with the fleet aircraft carrier as the capital ship and the screen as ships to protect it from attack. 

Carrier Strike Group(besides the fleet carrier)

                                                         # in a                     VLS
                                                         Group
Guided Missile Cruiser                             1-2                      120/ship
Guided Missile Destroyer                         3-5                       80-112/ship
Submarine                                             1, or more

So, adding but 8 more VLS for the Trump idiocy just does not make any sense versus building 3+ DDG(X) ships for the same cost.

AGAIN, ANYONE IN CONGRESS SUPPORTING THIS IDIOCY SHOULD GET PRIMARIED.  AND ANYONE WITH STARS ON HIS COLLAR INVOLVED IN THIS IDIOCY SHOULD BE RETIRED FROM THE SERVICE.

Not to mention that the stinking Democommies can use this as one more issue against the do nothing Republicans to oust them from Congress.  Our Congress does not need more Jon Ossoffs in their haloed halls, or my favorites, Ilhan Omars, an illegal alien and Jasmine Crocketts, a mouthy empty suit with no substance.


Tell me Admiral...how well do those VLS launchers and the small 5" guns work when Marines are trying to establish a beachhead and need artillery support to knock out enemy guns?  They can't.  You know what class of vessel has provided artillery support to the Marines?

Battleships.


What you don't seem to understand in your ranting...is that there is a need for BB's that's been long overlooked by our Navy and needs to be rectified.

But please...go on...rant away
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
In our new age of drones, I would think having a mechanism to launch these might be also what this new ship might accomplish.  Antidrone ability would be a must as well, like maybe a short-range EMP to drop them dead in the air(or sea).

The four Iowa class BB's had been carrying various types of drones since Vietnam.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Online BobfromWB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,000
  • Gender: Male
  • Fishing the line, Bristo Bay, AK. Memories ...
The intended replacement for the Ticonderosa class cruiser is the DDG(X), which has 96 VLS cells at a projected cost of $4.4 billion each.  This ship which was in the planning stages is being scrapped for Trump's idiocy.

The cost of a Trump class battleship is projected to be $15 billion with 128 VLS cells. I expect the cost will skyrocket up to $25 billion.  That is almost 2 fleet aircraft carriers.

You get 3 plus part of a 4th DDG(X) ship for what one Trump class battleship will cost. 

For just comparing 3 DDG(X) ships to 1 Trump class battleship,  that is 288 VLS cells + part of a 4th ship cost versus 128 VLS cells for Trump's idiocy.  In terms of lethality, there is no comparison.  Roughly about THREE TIMES THE FIRE POWER of Trump's gold plated battleship.


Another argument against is the dispersal factor. Its harder to take out 10 ships than just one. Posting story in a bit about that.
Democrats would rather rule over ashes than govern a functioning Republic

Online BobfromWB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,000
  • Gender: Male
  • Fishing the line, Bristo Bay, AK. Memories ...
The Trump-Class Battleship Is Not the Ship the Navy Needs
David Strom | December 27, 2025

https://hotair.com/david-strom/2025/12/27/the-trump-class-battleship-is-likely-not-the-ship-the-navy-needs-n3810298


Excerpts:
NOTE: This post is very long, and the videos included are even longer. If you choose to watch only one, I would suggest the third one that specifically covers the Trump class.

A lot of people instantly hated the new Trump-class Battleship because it has the name "Trump" attached to it, and especially hated it because Trump wants to have a hand in the design for "aesthetic" reasons ...

Few people doubt that America needs to have the most powerful Navy in the world, and one specifically suited to worldwide power projection.

No other country in the world has naval requirements remotely similar to ours, and the closest any country came was Great Britain at the height of its empire. Our strategic requirements as the world's defender of freedom of navigation mean that we need to have the capability to project power in the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian Ocean, Persian Gulf, Mediterranean, South China Sea...basically everywhere.

Naval power is so vital to our security and economy that there is a legal requirement that we maintain 11 active-duty aircraft carriers in service at all times, just to ensure we have enough to deploy where they are needed. Given their maintenance requirements, which are enormous, at most half of them can be deployed at any given moment, and usually fewer. Generally speaking, a third are deployed, a third are preparing, and a third are in maintenance for refit.

Carriers are part of strike groups, meaning they are not deployed alone but with an array of other ships, including destroyers, cruisers, and attack submarines ...

Carriers are the big sticks of power projection, but outside of wars or active conflicts, they actually are not doing the most important work of the Navy, which is defending the sea lanes and ensuring the free flow of trade against piracy and other lower-level threats.

Currently, that job rests largely with our destroyers, which are extremely formidable in their own right, and we have about 75 of them. They can both project power and serve as superb air defense platforms. The destroyers aren't nearly as sexy as an aircraft carrier, but they form the backbone of US naval power.

Think of the Red Sea crisis, in which the Houthis essentially shut down the vital transit route through the Red Sea. While people caught snippets of the action on the news, few understand the scope of the effort and risk involved in suppressing the Houthis' attacks. By many measures, the Red Sea battles were the largest naval engagements since World War II, and it was the Arleigh Burke-class destroyers that led the way. (The video is long, and not vital to the post, but it is still cool).

Is America's Red Sea defense really worth it? 19 min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqYkj_aT-wI

--
Carriers are for the higher-end fights; smaller ships deter pirates and smaller actors who could disrupt world commerce. And we don't have enough. And the smaller ships are able to operate close to shore in a way that carriers, and in some cases even destroyers and cruisers cannot. (This video, too, is long, but it does go into why the lack of frigates is a problem, and why Navy procurement policies are really really REALLY broken.

Why did the US cancel its new Constellation-class frigate? 20 min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRJ2DdLTeEQ

--
As for cruisers, which are larger than destroyers and capable of even more power projection, the US is about to retire them, along with many of our conventional missile carrying submarines.

Which gets us to the problem with building the Trump-class battleships, and why they are likely a bad idea to fill our strategic needs. With the retirement of the cruisers and the modified missile-carrying submarines in the next few years, the US is about to lose nearly 20% of its non-carrier striking power, and hence our ability to project power outside the very limited number of carrier strike groups.

That is a non-trivial problem. Carrier strike groups are expensive, extremely limited in number, and not ideal for protecting sea lanes of communication. Using them would be similar to using tanks and SWAT teams to police the streets on a normal day. You need to have cheaper and more numerous policemen on the streets to prevent and deal with crime, not massive military force capable of leveling a city block for every robbery ...

Lots of small ships can also carry much more striking power than one or a few large ships. As large and capable as a Trump-class battleship would be, it actually wouldn't be able to put much more ordinance on target than a destroyer, despite a much higher cost and vulnerability due to being one ship rather than 10.
Advertisement

A single Arleigh Burke-class destroyer has 90-96 VLS cells, which carry the ordinance that would be used in a higher-end (or air defense) battle. A single Trump-class "battleship" would carry 128 cells that include the same capability, plus 12 for hypersonic missiles.

All at a cost of $10-15 billion, which is the same cost as a Ford Class carrier.  (This video explains why the Trump class battleship is probably a bad idea.)

New battleships and frigates won't solve the Navy's problem, 30min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B3VyWRmilg

Even if the Trump class would be harder to sink, it wouldn't be THAT much harder to sink than a destroyer. Let's say it takes 5x as many missiles to destroy it or put it out of action, China certainly has the missiles to do so. And once it is gone, it is gone. Putting 10 destroyers out of action is a much harder task, especially since they can support each other in air defense creating a web of defense. Overwhelming the air defense capabilities of multiple destroyers is a much tougher nut to crack than overwhelming the slightly more capable single ship.

The real game changer on the Trump Class ship is the yet-to-be fully developed railgun, but the question is 1) whether it can be made fully mission capable in a reasonable period of time, and 2) whether the added capability is worth the trade-offs, which include much higher cost and far fewer ships. Would 10 railgun-equipped ships over the next 30 years be of equal value to building 70 or so destroyers or an even larger number of frigates, each with anywhere from 26 to 96 VLS cells depending on design?

In other words, the Trump Class ships would be easier to kill than a much larger number of nearly as capable ships, which can also be many more places at once.

It's not that the Trump Class ships wouldn't add to our capacity to project power than we have now, but are they worth the added cost, the greater vulnerability for each unit of firepower, and lower ability to be in many places at once?
Advertisement

The answer is likely "No." ...

Lots of slightly less capable ships distributing our firepower and capabilities just makes more sense than concentrating fewer VLS cells in a few ships.

If a Trump Class ship cost twice as much as a destroyer, it would not be a horrible decision to have a few ships that look more impressive than a destroyer and which carry a fully-functional railgun. But given our budgets, the always-overoptimistic timelines for development and construction, and how long it takes to get a new ship design to actually function properly, it seems to be a bad bet.

A future administration will surely cancel the program, after spending many billions on design, or we will wind up with a situation similar to the Zumwalt (which also tried to pack more capability into a new ship class, and which failed miserably), or perhaps the Littoral Combat Ship, which again was a cool concept and if it had worked well would have been a significant addition to our capabilities.

The Navy has been horrific at designing and deploying new ships, which is why the Navy is shrinking both in size and capability. We need more combat capable ships, not fewer and slightly more capable (in some fights) ships that may or may not work as intended.

The Arleigh Burke destroyers keep getting built (25 more are planned) because they are proven, the bugs have been mostly worked out, and they are no longer subject to the provably failed ability of the Navy to design, build, and deploy new classes of ships. We can't even build new frigates more capable than the ones we use for drug interdiction, even when we start with the basic designs that work for our allies.

We need the equivalent of building a lot of F-15EX-equivalent ships. Updated and more capable proven versions of what we know works, and we need it quickly for a potential high-end fight with China, which is as a practical matter our only near-peer or peer Naval adversary. That means destroyers and frigates. We should, frankly, just buy slightly modified versions of a ship already designed by Italy or Norway. The Constellation class was supposed to be that ship, but the Navy screwed it up with mission creep and gold plating that made it untenable.

We took ships that were good enough with slight modifications, and turned them into...expensive black holes ...

Arguably, the Trump administration made the wrong choice between building the F-47 and the F/A-XX, since the Navy's needs for an updated strike aircraft were much more pressing than the Air Force's.

Originally both aircraft were to be produced simultaneously, but the administration, perhaps rightly, judged that building two new advanced stealth fighters at once was too heavy a lift for our industrial base. I am in no position to judge, but that makes sense. Yet the choice of going forward with the F-47 over the F/A-XX as the first aircraft to be deployed seems to be...odd, at least to me and many others. The Navy's needs are more pressing for a long-range strike aircraft that can strike deeper than the aging F-18 or the F-35C. (Again, long video, but if you want to understand how and why carriers can still be highly relevant with a longer-range aircraft, it is well worth it.)

Is the Navy's new F/A-XX stealth fighter dead in the water? 32 min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH019U1QhDw

The F-47 will be a great capability to have, of course, and should be built. But the F/A-XX is a necessary capability ASAP, and it is stalled.

So...no capable frigate, no long-range strike aircraft, fewer VLS missile cells in total, and much less distributed lethality just seems to make no sense.

If we had infinite resources and shipbuilding capabilities, the Trump class ships would be a "nice to have" addition to the fleet. But given resource constraints, the money and effort should go to less sexy but more capable choices.





Democrats would rather rule over ashes than govern a functioning Republic

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,137
The four Iowa class BB's had been carrying various types of drones since Vietnam.
Yes, but they might be capable of carrying a whole new level of drone technology that makes them invaluable assets to our fleet.
“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
Yes, but they might be capable of carrying a whole new level of drone technology that makes them invaluable assets to our fleet.

Agreed.  Make them the centerpiece of drone fighting and drone lanuching operations in addition to the much needed shore artillery capabilities.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,137
Agreed.  Make them the centerpiece of drone fighting and drone lanuching operations in addition to the much needed shore artillery capabilities.
Cannot argue with that.

Am hopeful that the technology and sophistication developed for them is above and beyond what might be expected.

My Marine brother never talked specifics to me but hinted we would be surprised knowing the full extent of some new weaponry.
“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
Cannot argue with that.

Am hopeful that the technology and sophistication developed for them is above and beyond what might be expected.

My Marine brother never talked specifics to me but hinted we would be surprised knowing the full extent of some new weaponry.

Actually I think the perfect mission for drone and counter drone ops would be the ship without a mission in the Navy...and that's the LCS...they created a ship class and tried to make a mission for them without success and now they are retiring them...their modular construction would be perfect for putting in packages and crew to either operate drones offensively or screen a TF with counter drone technology.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
Cannot argue with that.

Am hopeful that the technology and sophistication developed for them is above and beyond what might be expected.

My Marine brother never talked specifics to me but hinted we would be surprised knowing the full extent of some new weaponry.

Put nuke reactors in the new BB class...rail gun turrets instead of 16" gun mounts...counter drone technology and upgrade the TLAM launchers...fill them with the latest tech and build a TF around them to enforce freedom of navigation missions...anti piracy operations and show of force ops when required like when Iran starts getting froggy in the Straits of Hormuz.


And like I've said before...joint ops with the Marines to provide long range precision artillery fire when the Jarheads need to make shore landings.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Online BobfromWB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,000
  • Gender: Male
  • Fishing the line, Bristo Bay, AK. Memories ...
Actually I think the perfect mission for drone and counter drone ops would be the ship without a mission in the Navy...and that's the LCS...they created a ship class and tried to make a mission for them without success and now they are retiring them...their modular construction would be perfect for putting in packages and crew to either operate drones offensively or screen a TF with counter drone technology.

LCS = death traps, with engine/transmissions that do not work properly. They are being scrapped for a reason. Pure fantasy thread now.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2025, 11:26:49 am by BobfromWB »
Democrats would rather rule over ashes than govern a functioning Republic

Offline Timber Rattler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,364
  • Conservative Purist and Patriot
LCS = death traps, with engine/transmissions that do not work properly. They are being scrapped for a reason.

Yep...lots of stories out there about how bad they are with all kinds of design flaws and breakdowns.

For instance...

https://gcaptain.com/a-deep-dive-us-navy-shipbuilding-failure/
aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," "psychopathic POS," "depraved SOB," "Never Trump Moron," "Lazarus," "sock puppet," and "Timber Bunny."

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."  ---George Orwell

Online MeganC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,455
  • Gender: Female
  • RUSSIA MUST BE DESTROYED!!!
No one here is indicating the construction of WWII designed battleships.  Why do you keep bringing that nonsense up?

I agree that it is nonsense. However, even after your post there are references to 16" guns. The arguments against battleships I've seen on this site continually circle around the 80-year-old Iowa class and they completely and blithely ignore the fact that "battleship" is a niche in the navy just the same as "cruiser" is.

The initial plan for a new battleship will develop as time and politics proceed. Maybe we'll end up with something better. Maybe we'll just get new cruisers. We'll see. Whatever the end result is it will no more resemble an Iowa class than the F-47 will resemble a P-47.



When the symbol of anti-government resistance is your national flag then your government is the enemy of your nation.

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
LCS = death traps, with engine/transmissions that do not work properly. They are being scrapped for a reason. Pure fantasy thread now.

I thought they had those issues fixed with the ones coming out of the shipyards now.  Good to know.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
Quote
John Ʌ Konrad V
@johnkonrad
OK, OK, some are asking me to get back to battleships!

Let’s talk about battleships vs carriers.

I have written several posts already explaining how battleships were not “obsolete” after WW2 and continued service until after the Gulf War.

No Navy admiral would ever claim they are useless…. the question has always been: are they worth the cost compared to other platforms?

And the answer to that question has for decades been no.

Battleships are more survivable than carriers. They pack a heavier punch. They have a number of other advantages.

The battleship’s primary disadvantage is RANGE.

The main gun on a battleship can’t shoot as far as an airplane. So if a carrier and a battleship are steaming across the ocean to fight each other, the carrier is going to get hits off first.

Except that’s no longer the case thanks to missiles.

Carriers also have a much larger reconnaissance range— planes can see further than ships— but modern satellites zero out that advantage.

Carriers also have a longer cruising range because they are nuclear-powered, BUT fuel is not the limiting factor…. Because the 5,000+ crew need to eat and the planes need aviation fuel and because they sail with gas-guzzling destroyers, they don’t really have “more cruising range” unless you can replenish them at sea.

We can of course replenish them at sea, but the Navy has been underfunding its
@MSCSealift
 fleet, so this is no longer assured.

So the hitting range is no longer an advantage (especially with hypersonics aboard with thousands of miles of range), and cruising range isn’t an advantage because of the sorry state of our replenishment fleet.

So if carriers don’t have an advantage, then why did we build them and not battleships?

Well, battleships are more useful when you are taking the beach, but once the army moves inland, carriers have the advantage.

Sure, a tomahawk missile fired from a battleship or destroyer can provide air support from a long distance away, but it takes time for the missile to reach the battlefield.

Planes loitering nearby, however, can sweep in fast. They can also change targets easily if ground conditions change.

So, with limited funding, the Navy concentrated its budget on being a good joint player.

BUT THERE IS ANOTHER REASON THE CARRIER REPLACED THE BATTLESHIP

We had absolute dominance of the seas. There just wasn’t a need for ships, any ships, that couldn’t support Army and Air Force missions. There wasn’t a need for gunfire support of amphibious landings either.

And Congress wasn’t going to support a naval platform for a naval battle if there weren’t any serious opponents at sea.

So what changed?

China built a Navy larger than ours. And one focused on warships, not carriers.

China doesn’t need great range; they need to project force not across oceans but across nearby seas.

And they need to protect their 5,000+ merchant ships (we only have 82 Merchant Marine ships in international service).

Our carrier planes only have a few hundred-mile range, so merchant ships can spread out and avoid them.

Well, they can avoid them everywhere except choke points where ships must converge.

And carriers aren’t good at protecting merchant ships in choke points, as we saw recently when we sent two carriers at one time to protect ships in the Red Sea.

Submarines can sink ships approaching choke points, but they can’t protect them from drones and missiles.

What can protect ships in choke points are destroyers, but they are small and run out of fuel and missiles quickly. Plus, shooting multi-million-dollar missiles at $20,000 drones is not a winning formula.

So that’s why we need battleships now. It’s not because they ever became obsolete… it’s because we haven’t had a serious enemy at sea (the Russian threat was mostly underwater) and we haven’t needed heavy gunfire to protect choke points and amphibious landings since WW2

In 2025 carriers are still important but we need some battleships too.

https://x.com/johnkonrad/status/2005453456237043832?s=20
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Timber Rattler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,364
  • Conservative Purist and Patriot
I thought they had those issues fixed with the ones coming out of the shipyards now.  Good to know.

No, the design problems were never fixed.  And no more LCS class vessels are coming out of shipyards because the whole contract was canceled, with 35 built.  But those are being de-commissioned rapidly.

aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," "psychopathic POS," "depraved SOB," "Never Trump Moron," "Lazarus," "sock puppet," and "Timber Bunny."

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."  ---George Orwell

Online verga

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,865
  • Gender: Male
Back to the  subject on this thread, the Trump class battleship, one question....WHY?

If anything, I thought one of the primary lessons that evolved immediately out of World War II was that battleships were obsolete.  So, again, WHY waste this money now?

We have 11, 12 top nuclear powered aircraft carriers, and they I believe are still the dominant warship of the oceans.  I would rather see another aircraft carrier than a battleship.  The aircraft carrier would be far more lethal and effective than any battleship.

Makes no sense to me!!!
In the past 20 years there have been major developments in technology of propulsion, radar/sonar evasion, weaponry, etc... After running the numbers it might have been decided that it was cheaper to devlop and build a new class of ship rathan refit ones that are nearing the end of their usble live cycle.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Online MeganC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,455
  • Gender: Female
  • RUSSIA MUST BE DESTROYED!!!
In the past 20 years there have been major developments in technology of propulsion, radar/sonar evasion, weaponry, etc... After running the numbers it might have been decided that it was cheaper to develop and build a new class of ship rather than refit ones that are nearing the end of their usable life cycle.

Ships wear out and at some point it is economically suitable to replace them as opposed to refitting them.

Thirty to fifty years is about it for most vessels. The Iowa Class went to fifty years because they were so soundly and robustly constructed. Still, they're old and refitting them for active service would be too costly.

Also, who wants to be the guy who tries one of these out in a hurricane with 100' waves?

Will it break up?  :shrug:

Better to go with a new battleship that will be worthy of the name.  tri22
When the symbol of anti-government resistance is your national flag then your government is the enemy of your nation.

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,847
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
Quote
txradioguy...

Tell me Admiral...how well do those VLS launchers and the small 5" guns work when Marines are trying to establish a beachhead and need artillery support to knock out enemy guns?  They can't.  You know what class of vessel has provided artillery support to the Marines?

Battleships.


What you don't seem to understand in your ranting...is that there is a need for BB's that's been long overlooked by our Navy and needs to be rectified.

Tex,

Your full of ****!  The proposed Trump class battleship's heaviest guns will be 2  -  5" guns, commonly found on DESTROYERS!  So again, the battleships of the WWII era are museums, and no one in the Navy brass are pushing for the kind of guns you reference in the above.  Fact is, our tactics are somewhat different today than they were in WWII. 

We haven't had an enemy since Korea that entailed a saturation bombing to soften a landing for Marines.  The Marines, when they landed in Lebanon in 1982, went ashore with weapons that were UNLOADED.  I still can't believe they would be expected to do that.  And about one year later, 241 US military were killed at their baracks with a suicide bomb. 

This battleship Trump is pushing is pure nonsense and a total waste of taxpayer dollars.  I stnad by my position, if Hegseth supports this, him and every admiral pushing this should be retired.  I am tired of the EXTREME waste of taxpayer dollars.

We could build 14 Arleigh Burke class destroyers for what these two battleships are projected to cost.  And based on trends with defense spending, you could probably double that number, for the cost overruns on a new design vessel I am certain will be double tha projected cost.  I would take 14-28 ships over two ships all day long, if we needed them.  I question that need considering we have ten fleet aircraft carriers that can each wage a full scale attack on an enemy, without battleships.

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,847
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
Quote
txradioguy...

The four Iowa class BB's had been carrying various types of drones since Vietnam.


Tex,

All four Iowa class battleships were retired in 1992.  All four are museums.  In case you can only count with your fingers, that is 34 years ago.  Despite the retro fit by Reagan in the 80s on all four ships, these ships would take 1 or 2 years to retro fit them today and upgrade with current technology.  That will not happen.

You have watched the movie Battleship one too many times, clearly.  That's called FICTION!

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,847
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
Quote
txradioguy...

  Per John Conrad
So if carriers don’t have an advantage, then why did we build them and not battleships?


There is a very simple answer to that question.  Battleships had a killing range of about 15 miles.  Fleet aircraft carriers have 100+ aircraft designed to carry the lethal range out hundreds of miles.  That is why today, we have 10 fleet aircraft carriers and ZERO battleships. 

Russia technically has ZERO aircraft carriers and ZERO battleships that are active.  And the only aircraft carrier Russia has almost sunk each time it put out to sea.  Its sister ship is the current aircraft carrier the Chinese are currently using, and they have had nothing but problems.  China is building a 2nd aircraft carrier.

The lessons learned in Ukraine have completely redefined war.  That includes war upon the water too.  Drones are going to continue to become more lethal, faster, smaller, etc.  BATTLESHIPS ARE NOT THE ANSWER! 

And everyone on this thread keeps making the fatal flaw of evaluating an aircraft carrier by itself.  FACT is they patrol the seas with a strike group of ships that protect the carrier, and project other lethal capabilities too.  All those ships together make an extremely lethal killing machine.  A BATTLESHIP ADDS NOTHING, IF ANYTHING, IT WEAKENS THE CURRENT CONCEPT OF A STRIKE FORCE.

The Navy needs to have a design for a ship whose focus is holding, launching, and retrieving drones.  Drones used for offense and defense, drones designed for reconaisance, observation of an enemy without detection, etc.

Back to the question posed by Mr. Conrad, fleet aricraft carriers have all the advantages to wage war hundreds of miles from the strike group. No other ship has that lethality.  And for the person(s) that think submarines are more lethal, I say, turn your brain on.

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65,202
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.

There is a very simple answer to that question.  Battleships had a killing range of about 15 miles.  Fleet aircraft carriers have 100+ aircraft designed to carry the lethal range out hundreds of miles.  That is why today, we have 10 fleet aircraft carriers and ZERO battleships. 

Russia technically has ZERO aircraft carriers and ZERO battleships that are active.  And the only aircraft carrier Russia has almost sunk each time it put out to sea.  Its sister ship is the current aircraft carrier the Chinese are currently using, and they have had nothing but problems.  China is building a 2nd aircraft carrier.

The lessons learned in Ukraine have completely redefined war.  That includes war upon the water too.  Drones are going to continue to become more lethal, faster, smaller, etc.  BATTLESHIPS ARE NOT THE ANSWER! 

And everyone on this thread keeps making the fatal flaw of evaluating an aircraft carrier by itself.  FACT is they patrol the seas with a strike group of ships that protect the carrier, and project other lethal capabilities too.  All those ships together make an extremely lethal killing machine.  A BATTLESHIP ADDS NOTHING, IF ANYTHING, IT WEAKENS THE CURRENT CONCEPT OF A STRIKE FORCE.

The Navy needs to have a design for a ship whose focus is holding, launching, and retrieving drones.  Drones used for offense and defense, drones designed for reconaisance, observation of an enemy without detection, etc.

Back to the question posed by Mr. Conrad, fleet aricraft carriers have all the advantages to wage war hundreds of miles from the strike group. No other ship has that lethality.  And for the person(s) that think submarines are more lethal, I say, turn your brain on.
Brain is on.

SSBN gets #1 in lethality, but that's Nuclear war.

Carry on.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
Tex,

Your full of ****!  The proposed Trump class battleship's heaviest guns will be 2  -  5" guns, commonly found on DESTROYERS!  So again, the battleships of the WWII era are museums, and no one in the Navy brass are pushing for the kind of guns you reference in the above.  Fact is, our tactics are somewhat different today than they were in WWII. 

We haven't had an enemy since Korea that entailed a saturation bombing to soften a landing for Marines.  The Marines, when they landed in Lebanon in 1982, went ashore with weapons that were UNLOADED.  I still can't believe they would be expected to do that.  And about one year later, 241 US military were killed at their baracks with a suicide bomb. 

This battleship Trump is pushing is pure nonsense and a total waste of taxpayer dollars.  I stnad by my position, if Hegseth supports this, him and every admiral pushing this should be retired.  I am tired of the EXTREME waste of taxpayer dollars.

We could build 14 Arleigh Burke class destroyers for what these two battleships are projected to cost.  And based on trends with defense spending, you could probably double that number, for the cost overruns on a new design vessel I am certain will be double tha projected cost.  I would take 14-28 ships over two ships all day long, if we needed them.  I question that need considering we have ten fleet aircraft carriers that can each wage a full scale attack on an enemy, without battleships.


Quote
Your full of ****!

I accept your surrender on this subject.


Quote
We could build 14 Arleigh Burke class destroyers for what these two battleships are projected to cost.

Those Flight III Burke's aren't what's needed to provide support for Marines going ashore or to shell land based positions when its not feasible to put howitzers on dry land.

We're not talking about dealing with some sand flea third world s-hole country when it comes to things like BB's...we're talking near peer adversaries that are as we speak are building up their forces to stop and sink our little tin can Arleigh Burke destroyers.

But go ahead...tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Youer view is a myopic one.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39

these ships would take 1 or 2 years to retro fit them today and upgrade with current technology.

You just made the case for why they should be put back to sea.  They could be outfitted with all the latest goodies quicker than it would take to build two new BB's like Trump outlined because of our degredated ship building capabilities.

Quote
You have watched the movie Battleship one too many times, clearly.  That's called FICTION!

Never seen it.  I'm just a student of the military having served for most of my adult life...plus I'm a student of history.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2026, 05:29:36 am by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39

 Battleships had a killing range of about 15 miles.

Maximum effective range on a Mark 7 16" naval gun...23 miles


Effective distance of the Mark 45 5" gun on a destroyer...LCS...etc 14 miles.

Quote
Russia technically has ZERO aircraft carriers and ZERO battleships that are active.  And the only aircraft carrier Russia has almost sunk each time it put out to sea.  Its sister ship is the current aircraft carrier the Chinese are currently using, and they have had nothing but problems.  China is building a 2nd aircraft carrier.

Russia didn't need them to be an effective navy given their geographic location.  China has three carries currently with two more being built in the shipyards.


Quote
The lessons learned in Ukraine have completely redefined war.  That includes war upon the water too.  Drones are going to continue to become more lethal, faster, smaller, etc.  BATTLESHIPS ARE NOT THE ANSWER! 

Again your view is extremely mypoic.  The next war we're involved in won't be with some s-hole country in the desert or in Easter Europe...it will be with China...probably with the help of the NORKS and Russia...China and Russia have near peer navies to the U.S.

Both are developing or have developed carrier killer hypersonic missiles that the CWIS system (max range 5 miles) on a Nimitz or Ford class carrier can't stop.


You can brag about carries all you want as the superior force...but it won't do much good at the bottom of the pacific when her pilots are low on gas and needing to land.

Quote
And everyone on this thread keeps making the fatal flaw of evaluating an aircraft carrier by itself.  FACT is they patrol the seas with a strike group of ships that protect the carrier, and project other lethal capabilities too.  All those ships together make an extremely lethal killing machine.  A BATTLESHIP ADDS NOTHING, IF ANYTHING, IT WEAKENS THE CURRENT CONCEPT OF A STRIKE FORCE.

Again our enemies have developed counter measures to the current carrier strike group and are improving them as we speak. 



Quote
Back to the question posed by Mr. Conrad, fleet aricraft carriers have all the advantages to wage war hundreds of miles from the strike group. No other ship has that lethality.  And for the person(s) that think submarines are more lethal, I say, turn your brain on.

John Conrad has spent his life at sea in the Navy and in the Merchant Marines...he's forgotten more about this subject than we both know...maybe it's you that needs to "turn your brain on"
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,118
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
Ships wear out and at some point it is economically suitable to replace them as opposed to refitting them.

Thirty to fifty years is about it for most vessels. The Iowa Class went to fifty years because they were so soundly and robustly constructed. Still, they're old and refitting them for active service would be too costly.

Also, who wants to be the guy who tries one of these out in a hurricane with 100' waves?

Will it break up?  :shrug:

Better to go with a new battleship that will be worthy of the name.  tri22

They survived Hurricanes in the pacific in WW II and IIRC Korea.  Carriers survived 45 degree lists in the same kind of storms.  The kind of boat you don't want to be on if you have to sail into rough seas is something with a flat bottom like an LST or a ship with a very shallow draft or a bow design that's not suitable for deep water long distance operations.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Online MeganC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,455
  • Gender: Female
  • RUSSIA MUST BE DESTROYED!!!
Battleships had a killing range of about 15 miles.

The battleships of the 1990's were equipped with Tomahawk missiles that had a range of 1,000 miles to 1,500 miles.

The Mark VII 16" guns of the Iowa class reached out in excess of 24 miles.

 tipping hat!!
When the symbol of anti-government resistance is your national flag then your government is the enemy of your nation.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,101
Anyone who disagrees with me is a complete butthole!!!!

Online Kamaji

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 50,117
Anyone who disagrees with me is a complete butthole!!!!

Are not!
Nie mój cyrk, nie moje małpy

Socialism is a crime against humanity

Online MeganC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,455
  • Gender: Female
  • RUSSIA MUST BE DESTROYED!!!
When the symbol of anti-government resistance is your national flag then your government is the enemy of your nation.