Author Topic: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land  (Read 158766 times)

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2025, 03:38:26 pm »

That’s as may be, but that isn’t an equal protection argument, that’s an argument over policy decisions.

Other states don't have this burden - a burden entirely caused by federal ownership of what should be state lands - Were they state lands, the burden would be *gone*. Those hardships imposed upon us, but not on any of the Southern states, or the Northeastern states makes us a vassal, not a sovereign entity. That is not equal protection.

the federal government should not be allowed to assert territorial powers against western states, which is exactly what it is doing by way of this extravagant land ownership.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2025, 09:00:49 am »
Other states don't have this burden - a burden entirely caused by federal ownership of what should be state lands - Were they state lands, the burden would be *gone*. Those hardships imposed upon us, but not on any of the Southern states, or the Northeastern states makes us a vassal, not a sovereign entity. That is not equal protection.

the federal government should not be allowed to assert territorial powers against western states, which is exactly what it is doing by way of this extravagant land ownership.

No, it doesn't make them vassal states, and throwing inflammatory rhetoric around like that doesn't help your case in the least.

These states knew the deal coming in when they were first admitted as states.  If it was such a bad deal, they shouldn't have agreed to it.  Having agreed to it, they and their citizens should at least have a scintilla of decency sufficient to honor their obligations.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2025, 12:16:42 pm »
No, it doesn't make them vassal states, and throwing inflammatory rhetoric around like that doesn't help your case in the least.

These states knew the deal coming in when they were first admitted as states.  If it was such a bad deal, they shouldn't have agreed to it.  Having agreed to it, they and their citizens should at least have a scintilla of decency sufficient to honor their obligations.
When the states out this way became States, (1889), the very idea of not tapping the natural resources available (Timber, grazing, gold, coal, copper, etc.) would have been repugnant enough that they would not have agreed to statehood.

That's a new thing, postdating statehood. The people who agreed to statehood were dealing with others eager to build this country, not put it under some bell jar and ogle it. Since then, the government, instead of encouraging harvesting those resources, has become the chief impediment to doing so. As a result, resources such as timber go up in smoke, and vast mineral wealth goes untapped, to the detriment of those who actually live here, lorded over by desk jockeys thousands of miles away who don't know bugger all about the land.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2025, 03:23:39 pm »
When the states out this way became States, (1889), the very idea of not tapping the natural resources available (Timber, grazing, gold, coal, copper, etc.) would have been repugnant enough that they would not have agreed to statehood.

That's a new thing, postdating statehood. The people who agreed to statehood were dealing with others eager to build this country, not put it under some bell jar and ogle it. Since then, the government, instead of encouraging harvesting those resources, has become the chief impediment to doing so. As a result, resources such as timber go up in smoke, and vast mineral wealth goes untapped, to the detriment of those who actually live here, lorded over by desk jockeys thousands of miles away who don't know bugger all about the land.


Too bad, so sad.  They made a bad bargain.  If they don’t have even enough honor to respect their own deals, then maybe they don’t deserve statehood in the first place.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2025, 04:29:43 pm »
No, it doesn't make them vassal states, and throwing inflammatory rhetoric around like that doesn't help your case in the least.

These states knew the deal coming in when they were first admitted as states.  If it was such a bad deal, they shouldn't have agreed to it.  Having agreed to it, they and their citizens should at least have a scintilla of decency sufficient to honor their obligations.

That's pure bullshit. There's plenty of record for the establishment of midwestern states, wherein the fed discharged its lands as they were populated. Those areas inevitably became settled and incorporated, the towns incorporating into counties, and those counties  under the jurisdiction of the state. That the west would expect much the same treatment goes without saying. The governorship didn't have the stones to manage vast tracts at their beginning - So the fed retained jurisdiction for the purpose of law and indian fighting. As the place settled, it became state.

Except the western states.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2025, 04:31:50 pm »
That's pure bullshit. There's plenty of record for the establishment of midwestern states, wherein the fed discharged its lands as they were populated. Those areas inevitably became settled and incorporated, the towns incorporating into counties, and those counties  under the jurisdiction of the state. That the west would expect much the same treatment goes without saying. The governorship didn't have the stones to manage vast tracts at their beginning - So the fed retained jurisdiction for the purpose of law and indian fighting. As the place settled, it became state.

Except the western states.


Pretty painful when your own ox is gored, huh. 


Those states were admitted with conditions that are constitutional.   Too bad, so sad that their descendants are having second thoughts.  Get together and get Congress to change it, or deal with it.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2025, 04:35:11 pm »

Pretty painful when your own ox is gored, huh. 


Those states were admitted with conditions that are constitutional.   Too bad, so sad that their descendants are having second thoughts.  Get together and get Congress to change it, or deal with it.

I'm alright with giving the fed the finger. Come and take it. FAFO

And I ain't alone in that.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2025, 04:37:24 pm »
And it's coming to a head, btw... Over water rights.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2025, 04:44:50 pm »
I have learned from experience that arguing with certain posters is like trying to play chess with a pigeon.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2025, 04:52:08 pm »
I'm alright with giving the fed the finger. Come and take it. FAFO

And I ain't alone in that.


In other words, you have no honor.  Got it.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2025, 06:16:49 pm »

In other words, you have no honor.  Got it.
We didn't sign the deal, and it is the Feds who pulled crap that left My wife's people with barely a thousand of the ten million acres they were promised. Then talk about the Black Hills, which were to belong to the Sioux 'until the sun no longer rises in the east'... There was no 'opt out' clause if gold was discovered, and instead of controlling the settlers, the army went after the owners.., then tell me who is without honor?

Honor in dealing with the residents of the western states, native or white, has always been a matter of convenience for the Federal Government.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2025, 06:48:32 pm »
We didn't sign the deal, and it is the Feds who pulled crap that left My wife's people with barely a thousand of the ten million acres they were promised. Then talk about the Black Hills, which were to belong to the Sioux 'until the sun no longer rises in the east'... There was no 'opt out' clause if gold was discovered, and instead of controlling the settlers, the army went after the owners.., then tell me who is without honor?

Honor in dealing with the residents of the western states, native or white, has always been a matter of convenience for the Federal Government.

You don’t have to sign it.  If you’re a citizen of the state, you’re bound as such by the terms the state was allowed to actually become a state in the first place.  You inherited those terms and you’re as much bound by them as if you’d been there.  Honorable men would recognize that fact. 


Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2025, 07:11:32 pm »
You don’t have to sign it.  If you’re a citizen of the state, you’re bound as such by the terms the state was allowed to actually become a state in the first place.  You inherited those terms and you’re as much bound by them as if you’d been there.  Honorable men would recognize that fact.
Honorable men would not have selectively looted those same states, in violation of their agreements--agreements they wrote and then routinely violated. Do NOT presume to lecture us on Honor.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2025, 07:27:58 pm »
Honorable men would not have selectively looted those same states, in violation of their agreements--agreements they wrote and then routinely violated. Do NOT presume to lecture us on Honor.


Pretty easy to lecture someone on honor when he won’t abide by the agreements that made his state something other than federal territory in the first place.

Also pretty easy to lecture that just because “they” were dishonorable doesn’t justify your dishonor.


Quite honestly, even the title of this thread is misleading.  Utah would not be anything other than federal territory but for the federal governments decision to allow the formation of a new state.  Thus, Utah has no property inside or outside its borders other than what it was allowed to have when it became a state, so Utah does in fact have control over all the property that became Utah property; it’s not entitled to control what was never its property to begin with.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2025, 08:16:13 pm »

Pretty easy to lecture someone on honor when he won’t abide by the agreements that made his state something other than federal territory in the first place.

Also pretty easy to lecture that just because “they” were dishonorable doesn’t justify your dishonor.


Quite honestly, even the title of this thread is misleading.  Utah would not be anything other than federal territory but for the federal governments decision to allow the formation of a new state.  Thus, Utah has no property inside or outside its borders other than what it was allowed to have when it became a state, so Utah does in fact have control over all the property that became Utah property; it’s not entitled to control what was never its property to begin with.
Not one agreement has survived its becoming inconvenient for the Federal Government, the States be damned.
Not one treaty with the indigenous people, and any time the Feds want to virtue signal, they cut off another million acres or so from being harvested, either timber, minerals, or even oil, declare it a National Monument or wilderness area, and some cannot even be driven through.

No other part of the country, except Alaska is subject to such sweeping and capricious edicts. Justify that bullshit in your own mind, but it is the difference that makes for people out west as seeing the Federal Government not as a protector or provider, but a ravening pack of wolves come to eat out our substance.

Those lands removed from productivity become a drain on their respective States, patches of tinder, awaiting fires that are made more difficult to fight by policy enacted from thousands of miles away. Last year a little smoke in the East caused pearl clutching and the vapors, but here in North Dakota we annually get smoke so thick you can't see 1/4 mile through it, from parts of Western Montana and the Pacific Northwest burning. I guess things that people would not put up with in Eastern States are okay to dump on us. Two tiers, yes, vassal states, not equals. There is a long list of convenient 'justifications' for everything from planting a nuclear arsenal in the prairie and making us first strike targets to saying we can't cut that particular precious tree, but it is a burden we unilaterally bear, and one summarily overridden by political and pseudoscientific considerations when convenient for the more populated states. It's damned one sided. When we can dictate whether you can use water or cut a tree or dig a hole in the ground, we'll  talk about equality and agreements, and not until.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline libertybele

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2025, 09:03:25 pm »
I have learned from experience that arguing with certain posters is like trying to play chess with a pigeon.

 :silly:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2025, 09:23:44 pm »

In other words, you have no honor.  Got it.

No one is bound to a contract falsely presented, or under duress. Especially in perpetuity. I have a big fat finger for that one, and hell yes, I'll walk away. And I don't stand afar off from my brethren in that.

Shall I not hunt the king's land? Well, hell yes, I think I will.

As for the rest, @Smokin Joe said it already.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2025, 09:24:50 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2025, 09:38:16 pm »
Then of course you run into a problem with equal protection under the law - Western states are held as vassal states by way of the vast control the fed holds over their lands - A condition and influence not imposed upon other states... Even now the influence of federal environmental laws hold us hostage.
Those states should have negotiated better, like Texas did with the US.

Even Texas gave up gobs of its territory to the feds in the form of parts of Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas and Wyoming.

That was part of the deal in entering and one can expect other states were keen to permit Texas to enter and they now owned a share of that gift from Texas.  To take away those lands that was part of the negotiated entry price is expropriation of assets.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2025, 09:44:09 pm »
Those states should have negotiated better, like Texas did with the US.

Even Texas gave up gobs of its territory to the feds in the form of parts of Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas and Wyoming.
That was part of the deal in entering and one can expect other states were keen to permit Texas to enter and they now owned a share of that gift from Texas.  To take away those lands that was part of the negotiated entry price is expropriation of assets.


An negotiation in bad faith, as already outlined - The normal method was for the fed to discharge their lands, which later became counties and towns as they settled - All under state jurisdiction.

As the badlands of the territory diminished, the state grew. There was no reason to believe the same would not happen in Wyoming, and Idaho, and Montana. When the biggest landholder in the state is the US government, you are indeed a vassal state, beholden to the whim.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2025, 09:45:53 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline Texas Yellow Rose

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2025, 09:44:26 pm »
Federal Lands
« Last Edit: March 20, 2025, 09:47:42 pm by mystery-ak »

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2025, 09:50:22 pm »
An negotiation in bad faith, as already outlined - The normal method was for the fed to discharge their lands, which later became counties and towns as they settled - All under state jurisdiction.

As the badlands of the territory diminished, the state grew. There was no reason to believe the same would not happen in Wyoming, and Idaho, and Montana. When the biggest landholder in the state is the US government, you are indeed a vassal state, beholden to the whim.
We saw no similar problems in Texas as our negotiations were honored.

I wonder what happened in these other states?

As I had said before, nothing prevents a state from buying federal lands within the state boundaries, so go do it as the right to purchase IMO should be a state right.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2025, 09:52:36 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2025, 09:55:06 pm »
We saw no similar problems in Texas as our negotiations were honored.

I wonder what happened in these other states?

Texas was a republic when it joined. Montana and the rest were territories.
I think that likely left you with a better bargaining position. Admission as a state, whole cloth, is different from the easing that happens in a territory.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2025, 09:57:33 pm »
I wonder if the US government has to pay Montana property tax like I have to.  :whistle:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2025, 10:05:27 pm »
I wonder if the US government has to pay Montana property tax like I have to.  :whistle:

 :laughingdog:

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How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Utah Doesn’t Have a Right to Its Own Land
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2025, 10:05:32 pm »
Texas was a republic when it joined. Montana and the rest were territories.
I think that likely left you with a better bargaining position. Admission as a state, whole cloth, is different from the easing that happens in a territory.
Yes, we were a country but gave up a hell of a lot of land that helped form 5 other states.

We paid up, just like others need to do
“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell