Global EV Sales Crash As Drivers Pump The Brakes On Going Electric

[Hoodat]

I have told you numerous times when you give that example I agree ev's are not applicable for every condition or locale. They do work fine for the majority of the country. One day they will be developed to work in your part of the country.

Are you seriously saying that one day, battery-powered cars will defy the laws of physics?  Interesting.

[Hoodat]

Fisker Bankruptcy Plan Approved: Warranty Repairs & OTA Updates Continue Operation of Vehicles

Bryan Johnston  |  October 20, 2024

Fisker Inc. is going to start leaving the market under a bankruptcy plan approved by U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Thomas Horan. The plan, enables car owners to continue driving their vehicles, offers no compensation to shareholders, who have lost their investments. Fisker is also facing an ongoing investigation by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) for potential securities violations, which began before the company’s bankruptcy filing in June.

The SEC has demanded that Fisker’s bankruptcy plan preserve all company records as part of its investigation. Fisker disclosed in August that it had been subpoenaed by the SEC, which is now aggressively pursuing its case. Co-founders Henrik Fisker, the CEO, and his wife Geeta Gupta-Fisker, the chief financial officer, along with other officials, are also facing shareholder lawsuits. These lawsuits allege violations of fiduciary duties and securities laws, with claims that Henrik Fisker made optimistic statements about the company’s prospects while its financial situation worsened.

The bankruptcy plan, finalized after intense negotiations among Fisker, its creditors, and car owners, has resolved key issues, including recall costs for the Ocean SUV. Fisker’s estate will cover the expenses of addressing malfunctioning brakes and a defective water pump. Additionally, a solution was found for maintaining over-the-air software updates, essential for the Ocean’s continued operation. American Lease, a New York-based company that leases Uber and Lyft vehicles, purchased Fisker’s remaining inventory of over 3,000 cars and agreed to provide cloud access for these software updates for five years.

Several thousand Fisker car owners participated in the vote on the bankruptcy plan. Some of these owners, filed claims against Fisker due to vehicle issues and significant price reductions. Many contend they were misled by the company after investing heavily in its stock, which is now worthless.

Fisker went public in 2020 through a special purpose acquisition company (SPAC) after raising $1 billion in equity capital. Despite these funds, the company eventually ran out of money .  .  .

https://www.autoconnectedcar.com/2024/10/fisker-bankruptcy-plan-approved-warranty-repairs-ota-updates-continue-operation-of-vehicle/

[Hoodat]

Rivian's Loss Widens as EV Maker Continues To Lose Money Per Delivery

Bill McColl  |  August 07, 2024

Shares of Rivian Automotive (RIVN) fell Wednesday, a day after the electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer's second-quarter net loss widened as it continued to lose money on each unit it sells.

The maker of the R1T pickup and R1S SUV posted a net loss of $1.46 billion, up from $1.2 billion last year and $100 million more than the average estimate of analysts surveyed by Visible Alpha. Its loss per share of $1.46 also was greater than expected. Revenue rose 3.3% year-over-year to $1.16 billion, in line with estimates, but the company lost $4,278 for each vehicle it delivered.  .  .

https://www.investopedia.com/rivian-s-loss-widens-as-ev-maker-continues-to-lose-money-per-delivery-8691628

[Hoodat]

Hybrid cars are back in as electric vehicle sales slow

Automakers are increasingly hedging their bets on EVs with hybrids

William Gavin  |  April 4, 2024


Hybrids are becoming all the rage in the U.S. as the electric vehicle market suffers from slowed sales growth and automakers refocus their operations.

U.S. hybrid sales shot up 45% last quarter while plug-in hybrid deliveries grew 34%, according to Motorintelligence.com. Meanwhile, electric vehicle sales growth slowed to 2.7% across the first three months of 2024. Overall, sales of new vehicles grew nearly 5%.

“Hybrids will play an increasingly important role in our industry’s transition and will be here for the long run,” Ford CEO Jim Farley said on a February earnings call. “Hybrid just hit specific customer use cases.”

There are many reasons consumers don’t want to jump headfirst into buying an EV; charging stations are still relatively difficult to come by, models can be expensive, and a particularly bad winter left many Americans cautious. Plus, charging can take much longer than filling up a tank of gas.

The average new EV cost $52,314 in February compared to $47,244 overall, according to Cox Automotive. Although that’s down almost 13% compared to the same time in 2023, high price tags are still a major turn-off for consumers.

“Our research continues to show that price remains a significant barrier for consumer adoption,” Stephanie Valdez Streaty, director of industry insights at Cox Automotive, said in a statement. She added that EVs “remain priced above mainstream non-luxury vehicles by nearly 19%.”  .  .  .

https://qz.com/hybrid-ev-sales-growth-1851388358

[Kamaji]

So now we're discarding the term "sold" and replacing it with the word "delivered"?  Isn't that dishonest?

Why discuss honesty and dishonesty with a liberal?  They don’t understand the difference.

[banddag]

So now we're discarding the term "sold" and replacing it with the word "delivered"?  Isn't that dishonest?

Why discuss honesty and dishonesty with a liberal?  They don’t understand the difference.

Hoodat is the one being dishonest. He is saying delivered does not mean sold so I had to point out in aniother post "Delivered" means it was actually sold by Tesla. Tesla says so. The vast majority of Teslas are bought online and very few bought at a dealership by looking at their inventory.

@Kamaji
@Hoodat

[banddag]

Which is an 8.5% decline from vehicles "delivered" in 2023, @banddag


So again I ask the question:  Why should American blue collar workers pay out money (at the point of a gun) so that outrageously expensive cars that run on coal can cost less money for rich people to buy?

Why are you so dishonest?  You point out one quarter where sales dropped but leave out the 2nd and 3rd quarter where they had record sales and beat 2023. Q1 sales dropped because BYD and several other Chinese co's dropped the price of their cars a huge amount and people bouht them instead of teslas. . Tesla dropped the price of their cars and Q2 and Q3 saw record sales

Here are some of Tesla's sales and production numbers for 2024:
Q1 2024
Tesla produced 433,371 vehicles and delivered 386,810. The Model 3 and Y were the most popular models.
Q2 2024
Tesla produced 410,831 vehicles and delivered almost 444,000. The Model 3 and Y were again the most popular models.
Q3 2024
Tesla produced 469,796 vehicles and delivered 462,890. This was a 9.1% increase in production and a 6.3% increase in deliveries from the same period in 2023


So again I ask the question:  Why should American blue collar workers pay out money (at the point of a gun) so that outrageously expensive cars that run on coal can cost less money for rich people to buy?

You do know in 2024 solar and wind is now producing more electricity than coal in the US?  Outrageously esxpensive?  Tesla 3 now sell for $38k and Nissan leaf for $29k.  Tesla wants to bring out a car for the masses in 2025 that will sell for 25-27k. Teslas said they made a mistake selling high end cars and not concentrating on the lower end.

@Hoodat

[banddag]

Are you seriously saying that one day, battery-powered cars will defy the laws of physics?  Interesting.

What laws of physics are you referring to?

I pointed out scientist are working on cold weather batteries to fix the extreme cold conditions that hamper ev's that smokinjo was referring to.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3253745/chinese-scientists-produce-powerful-winter-proof-lithium-battery

Chinese scientists produce a powerful winter-proof lithium battery
A new electrolyte has been developed that allows lithium-ion batteries to operate in temperatures as low as minus 80 degrees Celsius
The development solves issues around operating and charging batteries for use in electric vehicles and aviation in extreme temperatures

@Hoodat
@Smokin Joe

[banddag]

Rivian will turn around

Rivian CEO said they made a huge mistake by building  a pickup and should have started with cheaper cars as most people do not want a ev pickup. . Rivian is coming out with a lower cost crossover they believe will turn the company around.


From google:
Cash burn
Rivian is losing money on each car it sells, though this is an improvement from the previous year.
Positive developments
Rivian has some positive developments, including a faster timeline to produce the R2 crossover, lower lithium prices, and excess capacity in its original Illinois plant.

Fisker went bankrujpt? So what?   There was 10,000 automobile co's in the US over the years. Most just sold a handful of cars. Many were ex buggy companies trying to adapt. 99.99 did not survive.

@Hoodat

[Kamaji]

[Smokin Joe]

Rivian will turn around

Rivian CEO said they made a huge mistake by building  a pickup and should have started with cheaper cars as most people do not want a ev pickup. . Rivian is coming out with a lower cost crossover they believe will turn the company around.


From google:
Cash burn
Rivian is losing money on each car it sells, though this is an improvement from the previous year.
Positive developments
Rivian has some positive developments, including a faster timeline to produce the R2 crossover, lower lithium prices, and excess capacity in its original Illinois plant.

Fisker went bankrujpt? So what?   There was 10,000 automobile co's in the US over the years. Most just sold a handful of cars. Many were ex buggy companies trying to adapt. 99.99 did not survive.

@Hoodat

Why don't most people want an EV pickup?

First off, the majority of (non fleet, privately owned as opposed to 'company trucks') pickups out there don't work for a living. They have 4 doors, enough cabin for a couple of car seats, and occasionally carry something in the back. All very nice, but not a working truck.
If you're going to go the EV route, it makes just as much sense to get a car for that, or better yet, keep your gas pickup for the long haul vehicle.
As for commercial fleets,you start off with a heavier electric vehicle that loses range fast with any load. In these parts, that pickup may routinely get 250 miles per day, and then have to be immediately ready to go elsewhere or be diverted on the 'regular' run. That's in all kinds of weather, and a significant number of those miles will be off pavement, in remote areas. You just aren't going to find the right amperage of current bush in the boonies.
When you take the difference in refueling time for a pickup that works for a living, it's time off the clock, time when the truck is not making money. That adds up fast. Ten to fifteen minutes for a petroleum fueled vehicle, and that's taking care of bodily functions and grabbing a snack and coffee on the way.
The heavier vehicle reduces the load the truck can carry. Increased tire wear factors in, especially for fleet vehicles, which multiply those losses by the number of vehicles in the fleet.

As a result, electric pickups only fit a limited market.
 
All of this "they are working on" stuff is like a campaign promise. If you don't have it in your hot little hands, you don't have it. Someday, maybe, but not today, when you need it, and that just doesn't cut it.
As for range numbers, they are like mileage ratings, and seldom hold up in the real world. I would neither bet my business nor my life on that. 

[corbe]

Stellantis Executives Losing It Over Potential 100% Tariffs, Tavares Leaving Early

TK's Garage


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDmwNwbUZfM

[Hoodat]

Hoodat is the one being dishonest. He is saying delivered does not mean sold so I had to point out in aniother post "Delivered" means it was actually sold by Tesla. Tesla says so. The vast majority of Teslas are bought online and very few bought at a dealership by looking at their inventory.

@Kamaji
@Hoodat

What you did in the second post was to repeat the claim again, using it to support itself.

(See logical fallacies:  Begging the Question)

What you did not do was provide any proof at all that the word 'delivered' is the same as 'sold'.  Just as you did with pushing 'leased' cars as sold.  Like I said, it's dishonest.

[Hoodat]

Why are you so dishonest?  You point out one quarter where sales dropped but leave out the 2nd and 3rd quarter where they had record sales and beat 2023.   .  .  Tesla dropped the price of their cars and Q2 and Q3 saw record sales

Here are some of Tesla's sales and production numbers for 2024:
Q1 2024
Tesla produced 433,371 vehicles and delivered 386,810. The Model 3 and Y were the most popular models.
Q2 2024
Tesla produced 410,831 vehicles and delivered almost 444,000. The Model 3 and Y were again the most popular models.
Q3 2024
Tesla produced 469,796 vehicles and delivered 462,890. This was a 9.1% increase in production and a 6.3% increase in deliveries from the same period in 2023

@banddag

Tesla "Delivery" numbers for 2023:  https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-deliveries/

Q1 - 422,880
Q2 - 466,140
Q3 - 435,060
Q4 - 484,510

The only 2024 quarter that has topped last year is Q3.  And none of the first three quarters topped Q4 2023.  So in essence, your claims that Tesla is having record sales is complete unadulterated bullshit.  Lie upon lie upon lie.  You seem to forget that this isn't DU.  Members here actually have the ability to think, to research, to check facts, and to recognize left-wing lies when presented.

And while we're at it, I would like to take this opportunity to expose even more bullshit of yours.  See your comment above where you said Tesla had to drop its price (i.e. sell cars at a loss) in order to increase deliveries.  At the same time you boast of 'record' demand for electric vehicles, you offer the premise that Tesla had to offer deep discounts in order to drive that demand.  This is an egregious contradiction on your part - a contradiction you deemed necessary because of your emotional desire to create 'facts' out of thin air to support your dishonest argument.

And on the other side of that contradiction, you keep boasting of record "sales" [sic] which in itself indicates that $2 billion in taxpayer subsidies really aren't necessary for such a hot-selling commodity.  But then subsidies continue to exist, proving that your claim is a complete lie.  Lie upon lie upon lie.

[jafo2010]

People that argue in favor of EVs are clueless.  Utterly clueless.

EVs are doomed to die out.  Why?  If you do not understand why, you are a moron on the principles of what makes capitalism the best methodology for a market.

Simply stated:   THE MARKET DICTATES THE CONSUMPTION, AND NEVER GOVERNMENT.

The moment the federal government ends their subsidizing the acquisition of EVs, the sale of EVs declines to where manufacturers stop making them.  PERIOD!!!  They are already losing billions of dollars with making them with government subsidies.  This business practice cannot be sustained.  In fact, it is crumbling with subsidies.  The Biden Idiocracy with their heads embedded deeply up their posterior are clueless.  But hey, elected politicians are highly skilled at squandering taxpayer dollars.  Used to be billions, now we have transcended into trillions!

[Hoodat]

What laws of physics are you referring to?

@Hoodat
@Smokin Joe

The one that says if you attempt to drive from Fargo to Bismarck and back in an EV in February, you will die.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  You will be dead.  In a hybrid, you could make it.  In a fuel cell car, you could make it.  But a battery-powered EV?  You will die.

Oh, and then there's the Nernst equation.  It maintains that potential reduction remains fairly linear at the middle of range.  But when pushed near the end (as is the case with -40 temperatures), linearity is lost resulting in a sharp drop-off in potential, meaning that operating range would be severely hampered.  That's physics.  And it trumps your emotional needs.  And it damn sure trumps all the lies you have posted here over the last few months.

I pointed out scientist are working on cold weather batteries to fix the extreme cold conditions that hamper ev's that smokinjo was referring to.

@Smokin Joe was referring to people freezing to death.  But clearly, that is not a concern of yours.  Typical liberal.

Chinese scientists produce a powerful winter-proof lithium battery
A new electrolyte has been developed that allows lithium-ion batteries to operate in temperatures as low as minus 80 degrees Celsius
The development solves issues around operating and charging batteries for use in electric vehicles and aviation in extreme temperatures

No one here has brought up those issues.  No one.  Of course batteries will operate at temperatures as low as minus 80.  They just don't operate for very long before their charge runs out.  Because at that temperature, it takes a lot more energy to deliver the voltage necessary than it does at around 60 (See Nernst equation above).

[jafo2010]

Doesn't matter what engineers come up with to enable EVs to function in cold weather.  EVs are NOT COMPETITIVE in the market.  Therefore, they are destined for extinction. 

Most are leased, and when they come off lease, they are shipped to foreign countries and sold like new cars. 

I have never seen more than 1 or 2 EVs on a USED CAR lot(excluding EV exclusive manufacturers).  There is no after market here in the USA.  A large segment of the population can only afford a used car, so, with no after market here, there is no future for EVs in the USA.  Just one more example of Democommies being completely obtuse, and not restrained in spending the taxpayer dollars to fund the subsidizing of EVs for folks that have more wealth on average than the majority of Americans.

[banddag]

The one that says if you attempt to drive from Fargo to Bismarck and back in an EV in February, you will die.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  You will be dead.  In a hybrid, you could make it.  In a fuel cell car, you could make it.  But a battery-powered EV?  You will die.

Where did I disagree with that?  I told smokinjo this above:

I have told you numerous times when you give that example I agree ev's are not applicable for every condition or locale. They do work fine for the majority of the country. One day they will be developed to work in your part of the country.

The fact is engineers are working on ev batteries that can handle the extreme cold  and still have long range.   I have told all of you numerpus times ev's are not perfected yet and have their issues but the  issues are slowly being worked out. Ev range increases every year, they charge faster, thousands of new charging stations come online every month, ev charging ports are becoming standardized, ev prices are coming down-every company is introducing entry level cars, new home charging stations that plug in behind the meter box bypassing the electrical service box so it does not have to be expensively replaced. Level 2 home chargers were once $1200-1500 at Home Depot, now they  are $219.00

Look at aprtment complexes listings. Now they are advertising as a selling point they now have chargers on their property. Banks, grocery stores, strip malls are installing chargers and telling people theycan shop while their car is charging. many are giving free charges if the customer  buys a certain amount of goods.

Ok Tesla sales are down 24,000 for the year. The year started off bad but sales have been rebounding.  Let's see what Q4 brings. Tesla lost market share to other companies and Musk partning up with Trump has soured some of his customers. . The fact is ev sales are up overall in the US so far this year. Some companies are down, some are up.

The fact is the US consumer are welcoming battery power more and more into their lives every year. A friends owns power equipment dealerships. 75% of their home tool sales are now electric.He told me in 5-8 years all zero turn mower sales will be electric. Comercial landscapers are noew going eelctric with the new commercial grade products

Ev companies have stated they have made bad decisions. Several said they should have never built pickups or concentrated on high end $$$ sedans and should have concentrated on the entry level and midclass car for the every man

There has been a comcerted effort by the right to trash ev's has not helped sales.

@Hoodat

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Doesn't matter what engineers come up with to enable EVs to function in cold weather.  EVs are NOT COMPETITIVE in the market.  Therefore, they are destined for extinction. 

Most are leased, and when they come off lease, they are shipped to foreign countries and sold like new cars. 

I have never seen more than 1 or 2 EVs on a USED CAR lot(excluding EV exclusive manufacturers).  There is no after market here in the USA.  A large segment of the population can only afford a used car, so, with no after market here, there is no future for EVs in the USA.  Just one more example of Democommies being completely obtuse, and not restrained in spending the taxpayer dollars to fund the subsidizing of EVs for folks that have more wealth on average than the majority of Americans.

The industry has been building electric vehicles far longer than internal combustion machines.
They have never made it as a consumer staple after almost 200 years until government largesse subsidizing them began only recently.  Those subsidies are the only reason EV sales grew.

Nothing has changed in the marketplace to make them competitive with internal combustion machines which have always been long lasting, cheaper, more efficient and more reliable.

Worth the Watt: A Brief History of the Electric Car, 1830 to Present
The first electric cars appeared long before the earliest gas autos, and the history of electric cars is littered with innovative takes on four-wheeled transit.
By Kevin A. WilsonPublished: Mar 31, 2023
Electric cars have been around a lot longer than today’s Tesla or even the General Motors EV1 of the late 1990s. In fact, electric cars appeared long before the internal-combustion sort, and dreamers have never stopped trying to make them work both on the road and as a business proposition. A lack of historical perspective sometimes leads to misunderstandings of how things came to be as they are now, so let’s take the long view of the road that got us here.

We start in the 1830s, with Scotland’s Robert Anderson, whose motorized carriage was built sometime between 1832 and ’39. Batteries (galvanic cells) were not yet rechargeable, so it was more parlor trick (“Look! No horse nor ox, yet it moves!”) than a transportation device. Another Scot, Robert Davidson of Aberdeen, built a prototype electric locomotive in 1837. A bigger, better version, demonstrated in 1841, could go 1.5 miles at 4 mph towing six tons. Then it needed new batteries. This impressive performance so alarmed railway workers (who saw it as a threat to their jobs tending steam engines) that they destroyed Davidson’s devil machine, which he’d named Galvani.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g43480930/history-of-electric-cars/

[Smokin Joe]

Level 2 home chargers were once $1200-1500 at Home Depot, now they  are $219.00

 
Can't give them away, huh?

Tesla lost market share to other companies and Musk partning up with Trump has soured some of his customers.

Well, if the criteria for buying a car is to buy it from a Democrat, you might not be paying as much attention to the vehicle as you should.

The fact is the US consumer are welcoming battery power more and more into their lives every year. A friends owns power equipment dealerships. 75% of their home tool sales are now electric.He told me in 5-8 years all zero turn mower sales will be electric. Comercial landscapers are noew going eelctric with the new commercial grade products

Home tools, lawn mowers, landscapers tools...electric. (No Snowblowers, wonder why that is?)
While a person's living might depend on those being dependable, you buy multiple batteries, slap them in a charger that plugs into a wall outlet, and plop a fresh one in. Batteries ran about $100 each for my DeWalt Max 20V tools, (you can get them cheaper, now, but mine have held up well) and I like them--I have five of their tools I really like, and four batteries that I bought when I bought the tools.  But the salient difference is that my LIFE does not depend on these tools working 100% of the time, and in winter they are used (with the exception of the 1/2 inch drive impact driver) inside in a controlled environment.

Apples and oranges, comparing this class of tools to cars and pickups.

That just is not the case with the car, as you are well aware.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Electric vehicles: A tale of woe in the absence of the market process
'You don't need a government agent to tell you what you want or when you want it'
Timothy G. Nash, Jason Hayes, Tom Rastin, Real Clear Wire
November 2, 2024

Milton Friedman explained that "market processes" allow individuals to interact and exchange goods and services voluntarily. The prices they charge in these exchanges guide production and consumption decisions, ultimately leading to the most efficient resource allocations, maximized customer satisfaction, and increased purchasing power, and this all occurs with minimal need for government interference.

When it comes to electric vehicles, the absence of a "market process" has ignored consumers' wants and needs and allowed consumer demand to be misinterpreted. Demand exists only when a consumer needs and/or wants a product and can afford it. However, when government mandates and subsidies push EVs instead of more desirable vehicles, we can't tell if manufacturers are producing the optimal number of electric vehicles.

With the national debt ready to exceed $36 trillion, we know the federal government cannot continue spending recklessly. Whoever occupies the White House next will need to cut spending dramatically. We suggest they start by eliminating electric vehicle subsidies for producers and consumers.

Markets are sending strong negative signals on electric vehicles as American consumers are increasingly hesitant to purchase them. Government policies are, therefore, wasting tens of billions of dollars—soon, hundreds of billions or more—forcing this immature technology into a market where consumers are not ready to purchase.

Americans have many reasons to pause before purchasing an electric vehicle.

Consumer Confidence
Purchase Costs
Range Anxiety
Grid Capacity
Safety concerns and weather conditions
Resale and/or trade-in value of EVs
Rental car companies around the world are sending a signal on EVs
https://www.wnd.com/2024/11/electric-vehicles-a-tale-of-woe-in-the-absence-of-the-market-process/